Changing of the Guard. A new breed of car nuts.

[ford38v8]

It’s been a long time coming, but the changing of the guard is almost complete now. I remember back when I was a newbie, there were so many Ford experts everywhere you turned, you just couldn’t go too far off track in keeping your old Ford running, almost original, with just a couple of personal touches such as a Wolf Whistle or a Bermuda bell. Yep, I even had a Foxtail and a Tiger in the Tank.
The original Old Timers are all but gone now, and these young whippersnappers that are trying their best to keep up the hobby have got precious few resources on thier side. These newbies are trying to make new cars out of old cars, and it just isn’t the same hobby it used to be. They’re making mistakes (in our eyes), due mainly to the lack of guidance that used to be readily available.
We have to forgive them thier grievous errors, they don’t trust our old tech ways, they want new cars under old skins. Power steering, disc brakes, and OMG a 9” diff behind a flat motor? Oh, well, they’re the caretakers now, I sold my totally complete almost original ‘38 a couple weeks ago, and the new owner is talking about lowering the rear end. He’s not asking my council, and I can’t dictate my rules to him.
We can hope that these newbies don’t go too far with thier modern thinking, and that they heed the advice of those who have ben there dun that.

[TonyM]

Please sell to folks that you know.

I wish I could of bought your car.

A 350/350 combo probably next.

These guys will tell you how much they love the design of their favorite pre war Ford. Then they spend 20 minutes telling you about all the non Ford parts they had put on the car.

It is really too bad. Sorry.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

I sold my totally complete almost original ‘38 a couple weeks ago, and the new owner is talking about lowering the rear end. He’s not asking my council, and I can’t dictate my rules to him.
We can hope that these newbies don’t go too far with thier modern thinking, and that they heed the advice of those who have ben there dun that.

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by petehoovie

That car is so beautiful.

[FHFD]

Safe to say, the majority of the people who have an appreciation for these early cars in original condition are dwindling every year.
At 68 I grew up with driving manual shift, 4 wheel drum brake, bias ply tires, non-a/c, cars like I'm sure the majority of people on this site.
"Young" people today, say the twenty-thirty-forty age group, grew up, learned on power everything, a/t cars. That is their experience/comfort level of driving.
They may very well like the appearance of these "old" cars, but quickly learn, their driving characteristics, don't resemble anything they're familiar with.
Naturally, their next move would be to replicate their "norm"...I get it.
I'm all for the "next guy" who buys one of my cars, "to make it his own", and to do whatever it takes for him/her to enjoy it, and to keep it on the road.

[Gene1949]

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I are one of "them" and I'm 81 years old. The people I hung out with in the 50s were always tinkering, improving and crossbreeding. There were a few who had inherited dad's car and had no mechanical ability or just no desire to learn. Plus there was a mechanic or garage on just about every street corner.
Anyway in those days original parts were reliable and plentiful. Fast forward to today and read the complaints on this board alone. Many of us went to the dark side because of supply and reliability issues. Some of us have other lives/passions besides flathead Fords. We love our cars as much as the purists but just see them in a different light.
Both of our cars are legacy cars destined to be passed down to our children. Unfortunately, both are barely capable of washing and waxing them. I've bullet proofed them to the point where a yearly oil change and lube is all they will need for a long time.

[Ol' Ron]

Gene has it. My entrance into the "Old Fords" was after a few years of Drag and circle track racing/ I drag raced using the Olds engines. In the 50's they were the ones to beat. So that was a learning experience that eliminated the running gear. Probably why I don't use stock Ford rear axles or transmissions. They just didn't work, but I fell in love with the Flathead engine. I like to keep the car original looking, but running better. Sheet metal is King!!
Gramps

[Seth Swoboda]

I'm 43 and I appreciate early Fords as they came out of the factory. I'm so anal I will only use NOS parts when available. Modernize an early Ford and I'll likely wonder if you have lost your mind.

Not all is lost. I'm still here and I keep them bone stock and all Ford.

[Tim Ayers]

I'll chime in. I'm 53 and like them both ways, but I gravitate to the ones with a little mileage on them. I prefer them with some bumps and scrapes, not factory minty fresh.

I can appreciate a well restored car, but prefer a nicely used one with real world mileage and usage.

Lately, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool full race flathead powered, old Ford running gear using hotrodder and don't see that changing anytime soon.

[nelsb01]

There is probably a bunch of us out there that have the opinion that we like all old cars, but there are only a few that we would like to own.
As someone who has put over 30,000 miles on his 1949 Ford, I can say that you have to "drive for five" when you take it out on the road. (Drive for five: you drive for the person in front of you, to the left of you, to the right of you, the person behind you and of course yourself)
The problem we have and we can not stop is those that spend the money and then decide to spend more money to modernize a vehicle. Prime example is Iron Trap Garage Youtube videos.
The best solution that we can do, is drive and enjoy while you can. I especially enjoy the 30 minute gas station stops -- 8 minutes to fill your tank and 22 minutes talking about the vehicle that you are driving.

[Planojc]

If you think it's bad now, wait till they start changing them over to electric.

[19Fordy]

The fact that stock old Fords no longer bring the prices they once did is and indicator of the changing market and what today's buyers desire.

[34fordy]

Selling parts has become difficult too. Parts that were easily sold 10 years ago just sit on the shelf. Parts for Sale threads have numerous "to the top" repeats. The 3 and 5 window coupes and pickups seem to hold some of their previous values but the rest of them are falling in value substantially. Parts that were readily available repops are not being made any more as there is not enough demand to make a production run. The new cars are so computer advanced that an old corn crib mechanic like myself has no chance of diagnosing and repairing the new Fords. I would expect if I took my 36 pickup into the Ford garage and asked for a tune up, (plugs, points, condenser, and a carburetor adjustment) all of their "technicians" and all of their wizardry devices would be stumped! I remember a year or so ago Lawson commented how difficult distributor repairs are when you hit the BIG 90. The old world has changed my friends. When I fire up the pickup and go for a little love run it takes me back to my youth and what a joy it is!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GB SISSON]

This thread is quite timely. About 14 hours ago the new owner drove away in my '47 jailbar tonner (photo). The truck had been mechanically 'restored' by me about 5 years ago. This young man had been bugging me for years to sell him the truck. Funny thing, what drew him in is the relatively small 210 cu in cummins 6 cyl turbo diesel I installed. I have no doubt that if it was in it's stock form I could not have gotten the 15 grand he agreed to. I continue to drive my '46 tonner PU with it's nearly silent H six.

Purists note that I went to GREAT lengths not to alter the original California truck in any way. Not so much as a single hole in the frame, not a cut or a weld. I fabbed everything to plug into existing holes and mounts so I could go straight back to stock in a weekend.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

This thread is quite timely. About 14 hours ago the new owner drove away in my '47 jailbar tonner (photo). The truck had been mechanically 'restored' by me about 5 years ago. This young man had been bugging me for years to sell him the truck. Funny thing, what drew him in is the relatively small 210 cu in cummins 6 cyl turbo diesel I installed. I have no doubt that if it was in it's stock form I could not have gotten the 15 grand he agreed to. I continue to drive my '46 tonner PU with it's nearly silent H six.

Purists note that I went to GREAT lengths not to alter the original California truck in any way. Not so much as a single hole in the frame, not a cut or a weld. I fabbed everything to plug into existing holes and mounts so I could go straight back to stock in a weekend.

[Joe B.]

It might help if the many, hoarding doubles and triples of old parts that younger enthusiasts need could put them on ebay or F/B, where I think they would have the best chance of being seen. Specifically, for me, shoebox Ford stuff. They will otherwise end up as scrap when the owners pass. When I had my '50 Ford woodie in the eighties, there was a plentiful supply of original parts listed for sale in newsletters, Hemmings, and such, at reasonable prices. 49-50-51 Ford owners newsletter was great. I know those days are gone, but I suspect there is still a good supply of parts stashed in places and people that want them. Just a thought.

[34fordy]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

This thread is quite timely. About 14 hours ago the new owner drove away in my '47 jailbar tonner (photo). The truck had been mechanically 'restored' by me about 5 years ago. This young man had been bugging me for years to sell him the truck. Funny thing, what drew him in is the relatively small 210 cu in cummins 6 cyl turbo diesel I installed. I have no doubt that if it was in it's stock form I could not have gotten the 15 grand he agreed to. I continue to drive my '46 tonner PU with it's nearly silent H six.

Purists note that I went to GREAT lengths not to alter the original California truck in any way. Not so much as a single hole in the frame, not a cut or a weld. I fabbed everything to plug into existing holes and mounts so I could go straight back to stock in a weekend.

Yer gonna miss that one GB! For sure! Not many that nice left, especially out in the ocean! LOL

[34fordy]

Originally Posted by Joe B.

It might help if the many, hoarding doubles and triples of old parts that younger enthusiasts need could put them on ebay or F/B, where I think they would have the best chance of being seen. Specifically, for me, shoebox Ford stuff. They will otherwise end up as scrap when the owners pass. When I had my '50 Ford woodie in the eighties, there was a plentiful supply of original parts listed for sale in newsletters, Hemmings, and such, at reasonable prices. 49-50-51 Ford owners newsletter was great. I know those days are gone, but I suspect there is still a good supply of parts stashed in places and people that want them. Just a thought.

You are absolutely right Joe! Then the owner dies and they have a sale. The parts get piled, helter skelter on a wooden pallet with no thought of value. A buyer bids on one or two items he needs for a few dollars and the rest end up in a landfill. I have seen this happen.

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by 34fordy

You are absolutely right Joe! Then the owner dies and they have a sale. The parts get piled, helter skelter on a wooden pallet with no thought of value. A buyer bids on one or two items he needs for a few dollars and the rest end up in a landfill. I have seen this happen.

OR.....the ones that "have" extra parts be more "realistic" about the current climate....FOR example Ford/Mercury Hub caps......They were "only" offered for three weeks of production......SO....the likely-hood of an "early" Mercury existing that would take these caps (based on the founding principles of the EFV8 Club) is very very slim....SO.....when most come up for sale, its one cap.....YES they are "unusual to approaching rare" BUT there are very very few who can use them!!!!! Everyone seem to think ONE hub cap is worth $350 to $500. I have two sets of 4ea BUT one extra cap (for my spare tires) is not worth $350 to $500 to me!!!!! AND a general hub cap collector isn't gonna spend that much for "ONE" hub cap. I am most likely one OF maybe three people who would be truly interested in buying your cap????
I also am restoring a 33 with a 4cyl......HOW many out there are doing that???? NOT many.....the majority of people convert them to V8's.......but yet guys with 33 4cyl specific parts think that they are worth "Fort Knox" gold...IF I don't buy it how many are "realistically" out there interested in 33/34 4cyl stuff??? Again, I am maybe one of three or four???
BUT I've seen the same Ford/Mercury hub cap on EBAY for "months" with a BIN of $500. I offered the seller months back what I thought was a fair, stand tall offer to NO avail......He could have had the cash months ago....and to think of his time and effort in trying to sell that hub cap!!!!

[Ronnieroadster]

Those of us who enjoy MODIFIED old Fords are actually helping keep the flame alive. At the events I attend there's usually a good number of gray hair individual's with modified Fords however there's also a large group who are much younger with modified Fords as well. There rides are typically a model A Ford with a banger or a flathead V-8 trust me all is not lost.

Young guys like Mike and Matt from Iron Trap are doing their part to keep the flame burning bright. While some would rather keep their extra never to be used parts stashed away that would help someone younger to get into this hobby. The Iron Trap guys are actually finding and selling the parts and at times cars needed by a whole new younger group of early Ford owners. Yes indeed all is not lost.
Ronnieroadster

[Zax40]

The restomod craze is not anything new. Remember in the 90s when shows were full of old Fords with TBI 350s painted in pastel colors with billet everything? Boyd Coddington ring a bell? Fads come and go, and sometimes come back around.

There are still lots of people interested in pre war stock or period cars. As many as there were decades ago? No there isn't. But all is not lost. The hobby will continue on

[tubman]

Owning a Corvette or two (correctly restored, I may add), I once posted on a Corvette forum "What is more out of date than a 5 year old resto-mod?".

It was not well received. After all, it did have a 406 small block.

[ford38v8]

I started this thread with an idea that I didn’t communicate well. I was trying to lament the loss of knowledge available to the new generation. The lessons learned by the real old timers and passed on to us almost old timers is now dying off with what remains of us. The newbies must now make the same dumb mistakes that we avoided because we had tutors. We know things like mustang front suspensions are crap and split wishbones are troublesome at best, but the new guys gotta make their own mistakes. They never heard about ‘37 steering boxes so they want Vega steering boxes. There are damn few true old timers left, and even less of them here on the Barn. For us if we had a question, hell, the local junkyard had expert advice and had the parts to do the job. We didn’t hesitate to rebuild a transmission, we just took the busted gears out to match up at the junk yard, and got the bonus advise to upgrade to ‘39 gears. That kind of expertise is not available to the young’uns today, and they look at us sideways when we try to set them straight because they read some fool hack writer’s magazine article telling about Jaguar independent suspension.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by ford38v8

I started this thread with an idea that I didn’t communicate well. I was trying to lament the loss of knowledge available to the new generation. The lessons learned by the real old timers and passed on to us almost old timers is now dying off with what remains of us. The newbies must now make the same dumb mistakes that we avoided because we had tutors. We know things like mustang front suspensions are crap and split wishbones are troublesome at best, but the new guys gotta make their own mistakes. They never heard about ‘37 steering boxes so they want Vega steering boxes. There are damn few true old timers left, and even less of them here on the Barn. For us if we had a question, hell, the local junkyard had expert advice and had the parts to do the job. We didn’t hesitate to rebuild a transmission, we just took the busted gears out to match up at the junk yard, and got the bonus advise to upgrade to ‘39 gears. That kind of expertise is not available to the young’uns today, and they look at us sideways when we try to set them straight because they read some fool hack writer’s magazine article telling about Jaguar independent suspension.

I don't think it's the problem that you are postulating. Think of all of the books put out by the EFV8CA over the last 30 or so years. None of that knowledge was available when I started out. It's only getting better; there is an entirely new '33-'34 book in the works, (even though I thought the original was excellent). I am sure that you have heard that "once something is on the Internet, it's there forever". I'll bet that 50 years from now, every bit of knowledge posted here (or on the H.A.M.B and other such forums) will still be easily accessible.

And, I have to disagree with you about "the local junkyard had expert advice". I will guarantee you that the advice you can find on rebuilding a pre-war Ford transmission here will beat the hell out of what you got at the local scrapyard 50 years ago. I got a lot of good parts from Jim at Carmichel's Auto Parts in the fifties and sixties, but also some bad advice ("you don't want this Columbia for $10, they're nothin' but trouble).

Actually, things are pretty good now, and they'll only get better as technology advances and gets cheaper.

[Tinker]

Long time listener, first time caller... I'm glad things haven't changed here much. There is certainly a small selection of people that are interesting in doing it right or what we do. But they are few and fewer. But there is some. Guess if you see it, help them.

[Tinker]

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I still run 6 volt. hahaha


Things can change but there will always be a few that don't. Hell there is a model T club here. Ya think they care about upgrades.


I suppose 1 in 3-5 nice original cars sold get cut up to make a restomod to feed the credit card car dudes. Probably about the same or more for the hotrodders.


Last show I went to up here I was the only flathead, one 4 banger. Street rod country.



.

[1942deluxe]

I recently saw a 1959 El Camino "resto mod" that I would describe the front suspension as unsafe at best, Wildwood brake system that barely stopped the car, etc. There are some great builds but others where people get "catalogitis" and have no idea what the cause and effect of a modification is. I wouldn't sell any of my old cars without making sure the buyer drove them 15-20 miles. None of them drive like a modern car nor did they when they were new and that's what I enjoy about them. You have to think and be engaged to drive them. It takes time and patience to fine tune this stuff. There were mechanics years ago and then there were really good mechanics. My stuff too is 6 volt. Starts great cold or hot but it took work to get it to that point. I would agree around here there is a loss of knowledge but thanks to folks like Charlie NY I've been able to figure most of it out. The internet and Ebay have also made it easier to find parts. The glass is half full.....

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by 1942deluxe

None of them drive like a modern car nor did they when they were new and that's what I enjoy about them. .

This is the charm of antique auto ownership for me.

[34fordy]

Originally Posted by TonyM

This is the charm of antique auto ownership for me.

Right on Tony. It is a feeling you cannot describe. It can only be felt by those of us who get the warm fuzzy feelings. I can even get that in the coldest days of winter sitting in my shop and looking at the front end of my 36 pickup resting in the other shop room.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by TonyM

This is the charm of antique auto ownership for me.

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by TonyM

This is the charm of antique auto ownership for me.

I agree. It takes me back to a time when there was some romance to early motoring. Now it's hurry up, cut someone off and flip them the bird.

[farmertom]

TonyM,thats the same look and Itoo get that vibe driving my '37 fordor. looks like your dash and mine are very simular cond.both still have a good amount of woodgrain showing.i drive my '37 daily. can't get enough!! Tom.

[CaliforniaBorn36]

Alan, (ford38v8), another piece of the issue, is finding mechanics and good parts if something is beyond ones skill level. Flathead mechanics are few and far between. I waited almost a year, with my car sitting in the garage, after I found a good flathead mechanic to work on it. If I remember, yours had been out of commission for over 10 years. If people's car sit in the garage how are the younger people going to grow to appreciate them. I loved my original condition 1936 Ford, but had become nervous that while driving it there would be an issue, so I began driving it less.

I chose to replace it with a similar vehicle with updated running gear and now I can drive it more frequently and farther. I get the chance to talk to many young gear heads about it and I think raise the interest level.

The more frequently these vehicle are on the road, the more they are seen and appreciated.

If you have a stockpile of parts, assess realistically a reasonable value and offer those to people attempting to fix or restore a car. As a wise man once told me, "The current value of an item is what the person in front of you is willing to pay for it, it's your decision to sell and help them out, or continue storing it until someone agrees with what you think it is worth.

As pointed out by another, some people think every vintage part they have is worth a fortune. At the prices some try to sell things, no wonder younger people think they can't afford vintage cars. If you don't sell it to someone who can use it, what will happen to those parts when you pass...landfill...creating more unobtainium.

[38 coupe]

Various segments of the old car hobby have been having this discussion for decades now. The explanation that fits best in my mind is: availability, affordability, and familiarity.

• Availability - nice flathead era Fords have not been the easiest thing to find since the 70s. You don't see them around on used car lots. For decades you have had to stumble on one, or search one out. For decades the typical entry level car enthusiast didn't end up with a flathead Ford.
• Affordability - nice flathead era Fords have been expensive for decades. Air cooled VWs, Fox body Mustangs, etc. were affordable for entry level. Our flathead cars were not. The price is now coming down, but too late for mass entry into the hobby.
• Familiarity - this one hurts the worst. I am one of the "young guys" in the hobby, approaching my mid 40s. I grew up in the old car hobby. Weekends were spent with the Model A Club, Vintage Chevrolet Club, Early Times Chapter of the Pontiac Oakland Club, Horseless Carriage Club, and the Early Ford V8 Club (dad was really involved). My brother and I were usually the only kids there. I don't remember ever seeing other kids at V8 Club events. Model A Club at least had an annual "Family Day" that brought out the kids and grand kids. A related experience was talking to a couple at the 2013 Grand National Meet at Lake Tahoe; the couple was more interested in getting a return on investment with their old Fords than they were in passing them on to the next generation. I have met multiple people in the hobby from past decades with that mind set. I find it sad.

I will keep on enjoying my mostly stock old Fords. I will keep encouraging people I meet to maintain nice flathead era Ford as stock cars and trucks. I don't expect everyone to do that. I am mildly frustrated at how easy it is to find advice on modifying the old Ford instead of repairing it (magazines, videos, online forums, etc). Yes, good information on maintaining and repairing is out there, but you have to search for it. It is much easier to find information on modifying. I expect the majority of the preserved flathead era Fords to be modified beyond restoration in the next decade or two.

I have been trying to find an upbeat tone to end this very long post on, but don't have one.
Apologies,
Fred Mills

[expavr]

Fred,I would like to offer an upbeat note to this thread. I recently drove the Tonner to a local cruise-in event which was populated by a wide variety of makes and models including years built. The number of younger folks who came by to look and chat was significant. A few had never seen a flathead engine. The “vintage iron” fire may be cooling down, but if the interest in the Tonner is any indication it’s not close to being dead in my opinion. Les

[Ziggster]

Came across this Flathead industrial engine (used at a ski lift) on FB marketplace two days ago. It’s local, and was offered for free. I responded saying I would take and was local. I had my suspicions, and sure enough the seller (knows nothing about it - estate sale) now says he is looking for best offer. Replied saying last seized industrial Flathead I purchased for $100, and offered $150. Never heard back, and seller has now changed the ad. So, here we go, someone who knows absolutely nothing about flatheads, now thinks he’s sitting on some kind of treasure.

[Ziggster]

Some pics of the engine.

[19Fordy]

zigster: I doubt if the seller of that engine will be able to find a buyer.
It's not worth even $100 unless you need the parts, IMO.

[34fordy]

I would tell the "guy" that you will haul it away if he pays you $100. I also would have the money in my hand first from a "guy" with no principles!

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

Some pics of the engine.

[Ziggster]

Guess what! I got the engine. Couldn’t believe it when he contacted me. Thought no way. I’m glad I got it because of the local history attached to it. I’m no youngin, but hope to do my part to keep this stuff going a few more years.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Ziggster

Guess what! I got the engine. Couldn’t believe it when he contacted me. Thought no way. I’m glad I got it because of the local history attached to it. I’m no youngin, but hope to do my part to keep this stuff going a few more years.

[Gene1949]

[QUOTE=Ol' Ron; So that was a learning experience that eliminated the running gear. Probably why I don't use stock Ford rear axles or transmissions. They just didn't work, but I fell in love with the Flathead engine. I like to keep the car original looking, but running better. Sheet metal is King!!
Gramps[/QUOTE]

Well said. Thank you

[gwistrup]

I have been involved with automobiles for more than 45 years but I am relatively new to the prewar antique automobile scene. I was astounded with the passion and knowledge of