Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

[Old Henry]

Just picked up Old Henry from the garage that's spent the last month trying to fix my engine. It started very quickly and ran smoothly up to about 45-50 MPH, probably about 2,000 RPM's, when a bad vibration came and only got worse the faster I went. (Sometimes there is a certain RPM with a vibration that goes away once you get past it but this didn't.) I went back to the garage about it and here's what they'd done: As reported in my previous thread about this problem, (here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147626) the bearings were worn out and needed to be replaced but the crankshaft that was in the engine (that had been put in by my previous builder to replace the original that had a loose pulley on the front) had already been machined to the point that no bearings were available if it was machined any more. But, my original crankshaft, that I still had, had not been machined at all so had plenty of surface to machine to fit new bearings. So, that's what was done.

I hesitated to suggest anything to the mechanic because he seemed experienced so I didn't. I didn't find out until after the job was done that mine was his first flathead and he was having to look up everything to do and consult with Mac VanPelt all along the way.

So, when I went back to talk to them about the vibration, he admitted that he had experienced that when he test drove it but didn't say anything about it because he thought maybe it was normal.

So, now we talk about what the problem is and what to do about it. The only idea anyone comes up with is to balance the crankshaft which, of course, requires removing and disassembling the engine. On my dime, of course. Why they didn't have it balanced when it was at the machine shop they couldn't really say other than "We didn't think it needed it." or "You didn't ask us to balance it". Duh. I thought I ended up paying a whole lot of money for their knowledge about these things. Now I find out that I didn't really get what I paid for.

Any other ideas of what would cause the vibration and what to do about it?

Thanks to all for your help.

P.S. I don't need any snide or derogatory remarks about me or the mechanic. I need helpful suggestions to pass on to him now that I know I've got to educate him more than I had supposed.

[41ford1]

That's not good. Do you recall if during one of the prior rebuilds the crank and flywheel were balanced as a unit? Your replacement crank might have thrown that off. Are the weights of the piston and rod assemblies matched. That could be a factor. Were any of the clutch components changed as part of this rebuild?

[B-O-B]

Just a thought but are you positive that the vibration is in the engine.?

[Brendan]

that's not good

[Mart]

If the vibration occurs at three different road speeds in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, in other words at a certain engine speed range it is the engine. if only at a certain road speed, but is not affected if you are in (lets say) 2nd or 3rd, then it is not the engine. The only thing I can think of that it may possibly be, if not engine/clutch/flywheel related, would be due to the tires flat-spotting. This would correct itself as it gets used more. But, the reality is, it is probably engine related and can only be fixed by a balancing job.

Hope this helps.

Mart.

[40cpe]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If the vibration occurs at the same RPM in neutral, first, second, and high gears and after loosening or removing the fan belt I think you have a balance issue with the clutch or the engine rotating parts.

EDIT: Mart types faster than I.

[Old Henry]

The vibration begins at a certain RPM regardless of gear or even stopped in neutral so it's definitely the engine.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Henry, try to post all the parts (and numbers if you have them) that you know were replaced inside the engine.

The mere fact of replacing your original crank with the one removed, even though it's been cut, should not have a major effect on the balance condition! This is assuming most parts are close to original? Even changing all 8 pistons with nominally different weights usually won't cause any vibration!

If it is in the engine area the chances of the flywheel and clutch ass'y being the culprit sound pretty good. The flywheel/pressure plate on these "Flatties" should NOT be mounted on the crank when balancing the rotator, it isn't necessary! It should all be independently run up. I have no problem balancing the flywheel/pressure plate ass'y as a unit, BUT, it must be indexed as it was when mounted on the balancer.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. These builds SHOULD be balanced when changing components to ensure there are no issues like you are having here! We even recommend balancing these ass'y's on a basic rebuild! Some customers feel it isn't really necessary! Only the "balancer" really knows for sure though!

[46Merc]

You had said the original crank had a loose pulley and that the crank had to be replaced.
If they used this crank this time, what was done to resolve this problem? Could this be your vibration?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Henry, try to post all the parts (and numbers if you have them) that you know were replaced inside the engine.

Other than the standard gaskets, the only working parts replaced were new bearings and the original crankshaft machined 10 under and installed. No change of pistons nor rods.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 46Merc

You had said the original crank had a loose pulley and that the crank had to be replaced.
If they used this crank this time, what was done to resolve this problem? Could this be your vibration?

The loose pulley was just the slot in the pulley where the key goes worn. Moved the key and pulley from the latest crankshaft to the old original and it was just fine.

[Binx]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The loose pulley was just the slot in the pulley where the key goes worn. Moved the key and pulley from the latest crankshaft to the old original and it was just fine.

Then why did your first rebuild mechanic want you to change crankshafts? Did he give you a reason?

Lonnie

[JSeery]

My suggestion would be to NOT just balance the crank. If it is coming apart you need to have the whole assembly balanced. That includes weighing the pistons along with the rings and pins. The rods need to be weighted both ends and the bearings. All of these components are then brought to a similar weight. Weights are then placed on the crank to simulate these components. The crank is then balanced, then the flywheel and the index to the crank marked. Then the pressure plate and clutch which are also indexed.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Binx

Then why did your first rebuild mechanic want you to change crankshafts? Did he give you a reason?

Lonnie

That was the only reason he gave - because the pulley was loose. If there was any other reason he didn't tell me. I was having no trouble with that crank before that rebuild.

How can one know whether a crank has a problem and what it is and whether it can be fixed and used?

[George/Maine]

I have a 59a and has a rap thru 1-2-3rd.
I'm new to the floating bearing and was talking to a machine shop about the rods.
He said he would file the cap and hone to size. That's maybe and old trick but I would have good rods to begin with and no filing.
You could have a mix of rods, different lengths,you could try another pulley.
I found a crank and rods from and engine with cracked block and parts were removed.
Hope to swap and fix my engine. I did replace it with 53 8rt and who knows may just sit in garage. You will find out when you check parts.

[Andy]

Does the vibration decrease with the clutch in and the trans in gear? I am thinking it may be the disk. A bad pilot bearing will let the disk get off center. I had one disk that the springs had worn and it caused a bad vibration. I also had a bad vibration and it was the fan. Try removing the belt. Hope you get it fixed easily. Andy

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Andy

Does the vibration decrease with the clutch in and the trans in gear? I am thinking it may be the disk. A bad pilot bearing will let the disk get off center. I had one disk that the springs had worn and it caused a bad vibration. I also had a bad vibration and it was the fan. Try removing the belt. Hope you get it fixed easily. Andy

When I push in the clutch while driving and let the engine slow down the vibration is gone.

[don-wi]

X2 on the pilot bearing. Did you get charged for a new one?

[Mart]

I'm trying to get my head around what Andy said, but I think I understand it, he is saying to have the car standing still, in gear, and rev the engine with the clutch released (pedal down). the flywheel and pressure plate will be spinning, but the driven plate will not.

If the vibes go away, the problem is with the driven plate or possibly the pilot bearing.

If the vibes persist, it does nothing more than rule out those parts as the cause of the problem.

Worth a shot, as the effort to do it is minimal. (although to be honest, while I would love for the problem to be relatively simple like this, I fear the motor will need yet another tear down to get the balance into spec.)

Maybe a good serviceable flywheel that has never been skimmed would improve the situation?

Mart.

[Old Henry]

The vibration begins at a specific engine RPM regardless of whether the car is in gear, out of gear (in neutral), clutch in, clutch out, 1st gear, 2nd gear, or 3rd gear. When the engine is not spinning at or above that RPM there is no vibration regardless of whether the car is in gear, out of gear (in neutral), clutch in, clutch out, 1st gear, 2nd gear, or 3rd gear.

[Kahuna]

There is no question in my mind it is the engine. I just went thru this about 6 months ago on an engine that I had invested a LOT of money in. Virtually all the machine work had to be redone. When finished, the NEW machinist (John Beck, Pro Machine in Chico), who did all the RE machining, called and asked if the engine had run smoothly before. I said NO, that it did not. He said the crank was out of balance 110 grams.
That's a lot of weight.
Sorry, Henry, I don't see an easy or inexpensive fix
Jim

[BrianCT]

If the pressure plate was not put on the flywheel in the same position as
it was before the rebuild , then the balance will be off.
This assumes that you did not have a this problem before the re-build

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

There is no question in my mind it is the engine. I just went thru this about 6 months ago on an engine that I had invested a LOT of money in. Virtually all the machine work had to be redone. When finished, the NEW machinist (John Beck, Pro Machine in Chico), who did all the RE machining, called and asked if the engine had run smoothly before. I said NO, that it did not. He said the crank was out of balance 110 grams.
That's a lot of weight.
Sorry, Henry, I don't see an easy or inexpensive fix
Jim

The pain of the expense isn't near as bad as the pain of it not running right.

Why did all of your machining have to be redone rather than just balancing the crank?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by BrianCT

If the pressure plate was not put on the flywheel in the same position as
it was before the rebuild , then the balance will be off.
This assumes that you did not have a this problem before the re-build

Pressure plate and clutch were all replaced with new from Fort Wayne Clutch. It, along with the trueness of the crank just put in (it with the flywheel had less than 1/1000th run out whereas the previous crank was 2/1000ths) totally solved my clutch chatter problem I've suffered with for a year and a half. That was sure nice. I sure hope any redoing of the engine doesn't undo that nicety.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The pain of the expense isn't near as bad as the pain of it not running right.

Why did all of your machining have to be redone rather than just balancing the crank?

Attempted to explain this in an earlier post, you really can't just balance the crank, it doesn't work that way. As for additional machining, not sure I understand that, but the entire rotating assembly has to be taken into account. It could be a piston or rod way out of weight, or the flywheel or the pressure plate off balance. You also have to have the weight of all the rotating components in order to establish the bob weights for the crank. It is not "just balancing the crank".

[George/Maine]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

They sell a large number of clutch and pressure plates with no problem.
With 20,000 miles your clutch looks to be slipped to much.
This next time ford guys say you can put a 8ba crankshaft and rods and with new bearing should be good for another 50,000 miles.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Other than the standard gaskets, the only working parts replaced were new bearings and the original crankshaft machined 10 under and installed. No change of pistons nor rods.

Henry, Looking back at your thread when this latest debacle started I could not help but notice the photo of the rod you had posted. With the damage to the bearings, etc. in that engine those rods (ALL OF THEM) should have been checked carefully to be certain they were not only straight but round. In other words they should have been reconditioned.
In fact, I can't understand why your latest "rebuilder" did not insist on going through the entire engine properly. No way would I have touched this project, knowing the history, without permission to check ALL the so called "rebuilding" done in the past.
You state that you'd only recently found out this guy had no previous experience with flatheads. Okay, so he had no previous experience. ANY half way decent machinist with or without flathead experience should be able to put one of these together properly. The "rules" of machining are constant regardless of whether it's a flathead or an OHV. Assembling a flathead is also on par with assembling any other type of engine.

[scooder]

I think its internal engine vibration, its gona have to be pulled again and fixed. Clutch aint the problem in my opinion. I work on a massive aray of classic cars, have replaced lots of clutch's in my time. Not one of the replacement's required it to be balanced with the flywheel. When you fit a replacment clutch and the flywheel is in good order, you simply bolt the clutch on the flywheel, and away you go. The clutch assembly should be in balance out of the box, and if it is, it dont matter if you clock it at each of the three possible angles (long style clutch, used for instance) it should not/wont effect the balance of the engine.
Your vibration sounds to me to be as I said, internal. Crank,rods.pistons need to be ballanced.
I highly recomend you take up one of the earlyer offers from highly skilled Flathead mechanics, for a rebuild.
Get it done properly, you would have been clicking away miles on your odometer, with a silky smooth engine, instead of the pain of having to do it again.
Sorry if it sounds like a telling off at the end. But thats the truth.
Good luck.
Martin.
Just read the above post, I agree any decent engine builder should be able to do the work, Balancing and machining, rod rebuilding, maybe not the setting of the floating bearings if not done before. Though he could do a bit of research and then do it. But all the rest, no problem.

[supereal]

That kind of periodic vibration is usually due to a flywheel imbalance. The runout of the flywheel on the crank should be checked, and the dowels inspected to be sure they actually fit the flywheel, and that the special bolts (1196) have been used and torqued to spec. Each flywheel we resurface is checked for balance, a slight amount of removed material can make a big difference. Most rotational imbalance shows up at a specific and narrow rpm band.

[scooder]

The flywheel didnt vibrate before so we can say it is in balance. I hope.
The runout was also checked and found good before,
You could be on to something with the runout being checked on the crank now fitted, could be the crank flange issue, possibly.
I think a flywheel should be balanced seperate from the clutch cover, this way the clutch can be placed anywhere on the flywheel with no need for indexing, if that makes sence. Thats what I do with rebuilds, and as I said earlyer the clutch dont need indexing, and a replacement clutch can just be bolted on without upseting balance.
Still think it needs tugging and going through.
I know you said no snide remarks about your mechanic, the issue I have is "I thought the vibration is normal"
If I rebuilt a type of engine I havent built before, I do my home work. And if it then vibrated like yours, its pull it apart time (on my coin) and see what I did wrong. Not had to yet, I do my home work.
Martin.
Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by scooder

The flywheel didnt vibrate before so we can say it is in balance. I hope.
The runout was also checked and found good before,
You could be on to something with the runout being checked on the crank now fitted, could be the crank flange issue, possibly.
I think a flywheel should be balanced seperate from the clutch cover, this way the clutch can be placed anywhere on the flywheel with no need for indexing, if that makes sence. Thats what I do with rebuilds, and as I said earlyer the clutch dont need indexing, and a replacement clutch can just be bolted on without upseting balance.
Still think it needs tugging and going through.
I know you said no snide remarks about your mechanic, the issue I have is "I thought the vibration is normal"
If I rebuilt a type of engine I havent built before, I do my home work. And if it then vibrated like yours, its pull it apart time (on my coin) and see what I did wrong. Not had to yet, I do my home work.
Martin.
Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Scooder, I can't find a way to state this better than you have done.
You are obviously a better mechanic than I as I have in fact have had times when I have made mistakes. Like you, it's my dime to fix it. Guys do not pay me to practice on their vehicles. They pay me to do the job correctly. I was one of those that offered henry my service. I take a lot of poopy on this forum as I tend to build trailer queens. Many of these guys dishing the poopy fail to recognize that all the Queens I build are VERY road worthy as well as beautiful.
ANYONE that has ever rebuilt an engine knows even a small amount of vibration will cause a "premature death". If that vibration is bad enough that it can be felt in the passenger compartment and he thought that was normal... he should put down the tools and back away from the bench.
Olhenry had Mo "rebuild" the first engine - twice was it? Now he had Larry do it for the third time. Seems only one viable option remains - Curly.

[scooder]

I doubt I'm a better mechanic, I do make mistakes, but I'm methodical and check lots of times when I'm in the process. This can lead to redoing something, to correct the mistake. So far this slower process has kept me away from having to pull an engine back out. And maybe lucky.
I also do as you, don't charge folk for my learning curve.
Martin.

[Harylufa]

Hi all!
I have the same Old Henry problem, an small vibration live in my engine since two years ago. AM SURE IT IS THE FLYWHEEL BALANCE, when I disassembled my engine I change the original clutch for other no-original one.
I asked the mechanics to balance the clutch/flywheel, "SAYS, It is not necessary because in Old car it is not important"
After assembled the engine, literately i could prepare a "milk shake for my Kids" and a Martini for me!

Well, nowadays that vibration calmed down a little, but on the road I can not pass more than 80Km/h. Once I posted this item and checked wheels, carb, dist, suspensions etc.

I fell that I must take care my engine not running in high speed..perhaps I am in a mistake.
I post pics what I installed.

Thank

Hary

[AnthonyG]

Hey Old Henry, I got the same issues, I've come to the conclusion on mine it's the flywheel / pressure plate not balanced together. That will be rectified in about two weeks. Your mechanic probably changed the indexing the flywheel and or the pressure plate when reassembling. If your crank was balanced with the FW previously and they changed the index that's probably it, although if the pressure plate and flywheel were balanced together It could be that they changed the indexing on the PP to FW. In either case it's a PIA and a major dis-assembly fix. I'm commiserating as I'll be there shortly.
Good luck!

[bobH]

I don't 'get' it. Don't you guys run your engines before you install them? Scooder? Supereal? Kube? If you guys are as thorough as you suggest, I can't imagine you installing an engine you haven't run, even if it is on the floor. But, better yet, on a stand. What gives here? Old Henry's mechanic, if he is any good at all, should already know if that engine vibrates, or not. Even me, old, tired, re-tired, and what you probably all think of as an amateur, runs engines on a home-made stand, and even on the floor if necessary. One thing for sure, I'm going to know about main-seal leaks, and vibration, before I install. Too GD much work to pull them back out if something obvious is wrong.
About a few months ago, I sold an engine. There was no way that engine was going to leave my shop before the buyer had heard it run. It was on a simple stand, and I made sure the buyer heard no knocks, even running, no vibration, no smoke clouds, etc, etc. It probalby took about 20-30 minutes extra in making the sale, but worth it to me (& hopefully the buyer, too).
Even Ol'Ron posted on here one time in the past, about running engines - I think he might have said on an old tire carcass, if necessary.
Just my opinion - just a simple thing I've learned to do.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

There is no question in my mind it is the engine. I just went thru this about 6 months ago on an engine that I had invested a LOT of money in. Virtually all the machine work had to be redone. When finished, the NEW machinist (John Beck, Pro Machine in Chico), who did all the RE machining, called and asked if the engine had run smoothly before. I said NO, that it did not. He said the crank was out of balance 110 grams.
That's a lot of weight.
Sorry, Henry, I don't see an easy or inexpensive fix
Jim

Was this a scat crank??

R

[Kahuna]

No, Ronnie.
This is a 4" merc offset ground for a 4 1/8" stroke. Was supposedly balanced, etc., by a shop that said they had built many flatheads and knew how to do the machine work.
What he didn't tell me was that the flathead guy had left some years before.
Here's what was done wrong:
Bore too tight by .001
Crank (rod journals) had taper and one egg-shaped. Had to be reground to .030 under.
Rod bearings set too loose (full floating). Rods had to be resized
Block had several cracks (was magnafluxed by same shop)
Poor balance job
There was more, but you get the jist of it

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

No, Ronnie.
This is a 4" merc offset ground for a 4 1/8" stroke. Was supposedly balanced, etc., by a shop that said they had built many flatheads and knew how to do the machine work.
What he didn't tell me was that the flathead guy had left some years before.
Here's what was done wrong:
Bore too tight by .001
Crank (rod journals) had taper and one egg-shaped. Had to be reground to .030 under.
Rod bearings set too loose (full floating). Rods had to be resized
Block had several cracks (was magnafluxed by same shop)
Poor balance job
There was more, but you get the jist of it

Wow not a good experience at all.

R

[Old Henry]

Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.

Unfortunately, from their "research" and "talking to people" they have concluded that the vibration is coming totally from the Fort Wayne clutch I bought and gave them to put on. So, their plan is to remove the engine, put a different clutch on, and put the engine back in to see if that fixed it. I, of course, wondered why they just didn't check everything while they had the engine out - crank balance, flywheel and clutch balance, piston and rods balance. They are just so sure that it is just the clutch. "So, what if that one change doesn't get rid of the vibration? Then what?" I ask. "Well, we'll just have to take the engine out again and try something else." Oh boy. Oh well, as long as it's on their dime I guess if they want to take it out, change the paint color, and put it back in to see if that fixes it, fine by me. At least they are taking full responsibility to get it right and satisfy me as their new customer. That's a relief and take a load off me.

[colin1928]

Old Henry it is a simple matter to have the clutch pressure plate and disk and flywheel balance checked most clutch shops have a good balancer
have your mechanic check the balance of the clutch assembley if it is found to in balance he will need to look further in inside the engine
just changing the clutch and hoping that is the problem is bad practise when it is so easy to test

[scooder]

Bobh, if the engine is a real bear to get in or out, I sometimes make fire and smoke on the floor with them. Oil pressure, check, no leaks, check. Flick it in the car, connect it up, make necessary adjustments, and drive it hard.
As has been posted many, many times, you can easily undo The bore hone and ring seal by running a new engine on a stand with no load.
Martin.

[Mart]

I may have it wrong, but the flywheel has been in bad shape for a while. If it has been skimmed, it may not have been for the first time. The factory balance may have been lost. I would be looking for a non skimmed but serviceable 59A flywheel that still has it's factory balance. If not have the flywheel and clutch balanced as a unit.

As Colin says, if they are checked and are within balance specs, the imbalance must be deeper within the motor.

Sorry to always seeming to be the bearer of bad news.

Mart.

[Binx]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.

Come-backs to a shop are usually low priority work since they don't pay the bills. Visit the shop often with maybe a box of doughnuts for goodwill. Catch the flies with sugar or Old Henry may be out of commission for a long time.

Lonnie

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.

Unfortunately, from their "research" and "talking to people" they have concluded that the vibration is coming totally from the Fort Wayne clutch I bought and gave them to put on. So, their plan is to remove the engine, put a different clutch on, and put the engine back in to see if that fixed it. I, of course, wondered why they just didn't check everything while they had the engine out - crank balance, flywheel and clutch balance, piston and rods balance. They are just so sure that it is just the clutch. "So, what if that one change doesn't get rid of the vibration? Then what?" I ask. "Well, we'll just have to take the engine out again and try something else." Oh boy. Oh well, as long as it's on their dime I guess if they want to take it out, change the paint color, and put it back in to see if that fixes it, fine by me. At least they are taking full responsibility to get it right and satisfy me as their new customer. That's a relief and take a load off me.

The possibility, albeit a long shot, I suppose does exist that the vibration is the clutch. If it is, good for you and good for them. Me? I would not get my hopes placed too high on their diagnosis.
They have already proven to be well, less than proper mechanics / machinists.
Best of luck...

[Ronnie]

You should have the shop stop and check the balance of the current assembly before they go to all the trouble of purchasing a new assembly and installing the engine and only to find out the vibration isn't the clutch flywheel assembly.That is a simple trouble shoot as to where the balance problem occurs.If they don't confirm the trouble from the get go they won't enjoy removing everything for the third time fixing it and being the proud owner of two clutch assemblies.If I were you all would halt until the suspect clutch has passed or failed the balance check.This is not rocket science just common sense.The problem isn't flathead related at all only someone shooting in the dark hoping for a successful outcome.

R

[Kurt in NJ]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

When you say the "runout" of the flywheel was checked was it checked in both directions----runout of the face of the flywheel, and runout of the pilot bearing hole

When a flywheel is balanced off the crankshaft it is centered on the mandrel at the pilot bearing hole ----if tghe crankshaft wasn't properly centered in the crankshaft grinding machine there will be runout at the flywheel mounting

I had this problem with model A crankshafts ---3 different shops, .004 to .008 off center, was told by shops "it's just an old car, it won't matter"

I have bought several sets of Ford boxed rods,and pistons, all were balanced to +- 1 gram ,so Ford worried about balance on the production line and had tighter specs than most companys do

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

When you say the "runout" of the flywheel was checked was it checked in both directions----runout of the face of the flywheel, and runout of the pilot bearing hole

When a flywheel is balanced off the crankshaft it is centered on the mandrel at the pilot bearing hole ----if tghe crankshaft wasn't properly centered in the crankshaft grinding machine there will be runout at the flywheel mounting

I had this problem with model A crankshafts ---3 different shops, .004 to .008 off center, was told by shops "it's just an old car, it won't matter"

I have bought several sets of Ford boxed rods,and pistons, all were balanced to +- 1 gram ,so Ford worried about balance on the production line and had tighter specs than most companys do

Kurt, You are correct in all that you've stated. I'd like to add to your comment in regard to Ford balancing rods, etc. They (Ford) did in fact do a much better job at balancing than their competitors in those days. Taking apart an old engine I would typically find rods, etc. with weights within very close tolerances of one another.

It is my feeling that Olhenry chose yet another "chop shop" to do the so called 'rebuilding" of his engine and is once again suffering the consequence of that choice.
With the very apparent damage that was done on that engine prior to this "rebuild" ANY decent mechanic / machinist would have INSISTED on being extremely thorough this time around.
The way that engine was (described to be) knocking in a previous thread, it is within a fair certainty that the rods were hammered out of true and most likely out of round. Yet no mention was made of the rods being reconditioned and subsequently balanced.
Also, no mention that the engine was COMPLETELY dissembled and properly cleaned. Another thing ANY half way decent mechanic / machinist would insist upon.
I truly hope this works out eventually in a good way but all the signs are pointing away from that outcome.

[Andy]

X2 on the factory balance.
I would be worried about trash in the oil passages and the condition of the rods on the bad throw. I think the engine should be pulled completly down and the main oil galley cleaned. The oil pump, cam bearings and even the cam in suspect due to the trash. The cam has to come out to remove the fuel pump bushing. I would send you my driver.
I don't thing you should continue with the floating bearings and crank. Nobody in a shop would know how to check and fit them. The 8BA stuff is easy to check.
You could run the engine on the floor without the clutch as a check. Pull the pan and the clutch and reinstall the pan. It would be nice if that fixes it. I would still pull it down and check the rods for dammage and the oil passages.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Andy;964509]X2 on the factory balance.

I don't thing you should continue with the floating bearings and crank. Nobody in a shop would know how to check and fit them. The 8BA stuff is easy to check.

Really? No one?
Um, there are a LOT of guys that do in fact have the skills required to check them properly. In fact, any decent machinist that did not have the experience should be smart enough to figure it out.
These engines are fairly simple...

[keith oh]

Being a very simple minded old man, I am wondering if the engine was ever checked for vibration when run without the fan belt, thereby eliminating fan, water pumps and generator or even a bad belt ?

[Andy]

[QUOTE=Kube;964521]

Originally Posted by Andy

X2 on the factory balance.

I don't thing you should continue with the floating bearings and crank. Nobody in a shop would know how to check and fit them. The 8BA stuff is easy to check.

Really? No one?
Um, there are a LOT of guys that do in fact have the skills required to check them properly. In fact, any decent machinist that did not have the experience should be smart enough to figure it out.
These engines are fairly simple...

I agree. I was too strong. I Just went thru 5 shops trying to get mine built. One cracked and ruined a block with a lifting eye. One tried to balance the rods with washers. Another ruined rods and pistons with crazy metal removing. Another assembled the engine with the rods backwards and the oil passages completely clogged. A good shop was hard for me to find. Add the split bearings and the chance of success goes down.
From what I can read between the lines, the shop in question does not seem to grasp the thought about the rods wearing on the big ends.

[Old Henry]

[QUOTE=Andy;964586]

Originally Posted by Kube

From what I can read between the lines, the shop in question does not seem to grasp the thought about the rods wearing on the big ends.

My rods were reconditioned to this extent: They were, of course, removed from the engine along with the pistons, cam shaft, and valves to clean the engine. The "big end" that I assume means the end that connects around the crank shaft, were all trued by machining the mating surfaces to reduce any oversize inside diameters so that the rods could then be machined to match the new bearings.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Andy

I Just went thru 5 shops trying to get mine built. One cracked and ruined a block with a lifting eye. One tried to balance the rods with washers. Another ruined rods and pistons with crazy metal removing. Another assembled the engine with the rods backwards and the oil passages completely clogged. A good shop was hard for me to find. Add the split bearings and the chance of success goes down.

In a way it's kinda good to see that I'm not the only one that has some difficulty finding an ideal mechanic locally. But, alas, we don't live in an ideal world. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. We find the best we can then try to supplement their weaknesses with our strengths and hopefully it will all work out for the best.

The mechanics that I'm now working with have all rebuilt hundreds of engines each (there are three of them). They have just never done a flathead so are having to learn some of the quirks of them. I do have full confidence that they will eventually get it right even though it may take them a bit longer and a bit more effort than it might take someone else. At least they no longer seem to want to charge me for their education.

Since realizing that I can't count on them to get it exactly right on their own, because of the vibration problem, I have and will continue to print and deliver to them every suggestion (with insults redacted) that I have received for their assistance. They do read every word and hopefully they will consider modifying their diagnoses and treatment accordingly. Thanks for all of your contributions and keep them coming.

[George/Maine]

I would buy a new flywheel from say Speedway and I can't see going with another pressure plate but why not.
I just looked a 8 rods here for my rebuild 5 were the same 3 other not the same.
If the crank was done right all the same, now if some of the big ends were not.
You could have difference size bearing in one or more.
How many were scrap in your engine and were did the replacement come from .
That's about 2k rpms mine had a knock.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Henry, I'm assuming you've tried running the unit without the belt(s), eliminating all the "driven" pieces??

You really should inspect the flywheel/clutch ass'y very closely first, this means having a very reputable shop with a decent balancer run up both pieces.

We recently went through this dilemma with a customer in Maryland, he sent his flywheel/clutch ass'y to us for evaluation. We hadn't seen either piece before. Both were new and neither piece was balanced correctly. They were even worse when bolted together. We balanced the setup as a unit, indexed everything, and returned it. It WAS his problem, upon running up the pieces we knew it immediately. The balancer doesn't lie!

One more item to remember, when working with a 14"/18" wheel ANY imbalance present is much worse at the 7"/9" radius than the 3" crank radius! It is much more critical at that span. You will tend not to "feel" a 10 gram imbalance at 3", you WILL at 7"/9" out!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. When you are working with all stock (internal) components there should not be a single issue changing components, you should be able to interchange cranks, rods, and even pistons. Should have no noticeable adverse effects. Resizing rods will have no effect, "cutting" the crank to an undersize will have no effect. Not "balance-wise"!

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Kahuna

No, Ronnie.
This is a 4" merc offset ground for a 4 1/8" stroke. Was supposedly balanced, etc., by a shop that said they had built many flatheads and knew how to do the machine work.
What he didn't tell me was that the flathead guy had left some years before.
Here's what was done wrong:
Bore too tight by .001
Crank (rod journals) had taper and one egg-shaped. Had to be reground to .030 under.
Rod bearings set too loose (full floating). Rods had to be resized
Block had several cracks (was magnafluxed by same shop)
Poor balance job
There was more, but you get the jist of it

You were wise to take it to John Beck - that dude knows his stuff and is a total hoot to work around! He does our dyno work on our blown Flathead Cadillac motor for Bonneville - somehow we've managed to crank out 650 HP on a 3 main engine! I only wish I was closer to John - would have more opportunity to work with him on some of my other goofy projects.

[Bored&Stroked]

I'm glad that they will work with you to get it right - that is the most important thing. Every single one of us and all shops make mistakes - it is WHAT we do about them and HOW we go about it that distinguishes the GREAT people and businesses from the others.

A flathead engine is internally balanced - so you can mix-match component assemblies (as long as the assemblies are balanced). Example, you can pull the flywheel/clutch out of one engine and swap them in another - no need to re-balance the internals of the engine as long as the flywheel/clutch are correctly balanced (and the crankshaft/rods/bearings/pistons/rings were also balanced as an assembly).

Flywheels/Clutches: Some folks can/will balance each component independently of the other - such that there are no issues with indexing the clutch plate to the flywheel. But, it is not a big deal if a clutch plate is indexed/balanced to the flywheel - typically both are marked with punch marks to denote the index position. On most of the flatheads that I've built, the machine shops will specify/mark the index position - as it is EXACTLY how they were put together an ran on the balancer . . . so it only makes sense to keep them together and to install them in the same manner.

Good luck with your quest and please let the Barn know what the problem actually was and how it was resolved.

Take care,

B&S

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

I'm glad that they will work with you to get it right - that is the most important thing. Every single one of us and all shops make mistakes - it is WHAT we do about them and HOW we go about it that distinguishes the GREAT people and businesses from the others.

A flathead engine is internally balanced - so you can mix-match component assemblies (as long as the assemblies are balanced). Example, you can pull the flywheel/clutch out of one engine and swap them in another - no need to re-balance the internals of the engine as long as the flywheel/clutch are correctly balanced (and the crankshaft/rods/bearings/pistons/rings were also balanced as an assembly).

Flywheels/Clutches: Some folks can/will balance each component independently of the other - such that there are no issues with indexing the clutch plate to the flywheel. But, it is not a big deal if a clutch plate is indexed/balanced to the flywheel - typically both are marked with punch marks to denote the index position. On most of the flatheads that I've built, the machine shops will specify/mark the index position - as it is EXACTLY how they were put together an ran on the balancer . . . so it only makes sense to keep them together and to install them in the same manner.

Good luck with your quest and please let the Barn know what the problem actually was and how it was resolved.

Take care,

B&S

What do you do if a clutch change is required when all is done on flywheel as a complete assy???

Most are balanced by themselves to "zero"
so a change won't the balance.

R

[Kube]

From what I had noted in olhenry's earlier thread and from what these current guys did(did NOT do) , my hunch is it is NOT the clutch parts. If I were a betting man, I'd say it's the rods / pistons.

[Old Henry]

Here's a question that has been raised by the mechanic. Does any change need to be made to the crank when replacing the original cast iron pistons with newer aluminum ones? The original crank that has just gone back into the engine only ever had the original cast iron pistons used with it. When it was replaced with the other crank, the pistons were also replace with newer aluminum ones. Does that require any change to the crank?

[A bones]

Hey hi Henry, I just want you to know of your status in my book. As someone who has spent his life educating you are a great success. I thank you for sharing your problems. We can all benefit. I wish I had something technical to share, as I have yet to go through my first V8 tear down. My motor reportedly had only one season in a boat. I have a long way to go before I hit the street. You have always felt it important to share ALL of your experience. I can't thank you enough for this. Here's to a smooth trip next time! Tom

[Old Henry]

Thanks Tom. It's always nice to get a little "pick me up" after taking a few blows that beat me down.

[bobH]

I'll be interested in comments from the engine 'guru's' on this one. Reason being, I also have a 47, with a 59 engine. I believe it is a 'replacement' (Ford parts counter) engine, because of some of its features. In any event, it has never been bored - still standard, and it has ALUMINUM pistons, which I have to assume it came with. Your comment regarding 'cast iron pistons' surprises me. Did your engine originally have iron pistons?

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Here's a question that has been raised by the mechanic. Does any change need to be made to the crank when replacing the original cast iron pistons with newer aluminum ones? The original crank that has just gone back into the engine only ever had the original cast iron pistons used with it. When it was replaced with the other crank, the pistons were also replace with newer aluminum ones. Does that require any change to the crank?

[Old Henry]

Well, I still have my original pistons. So, I took my trusty little magnet to check them and, sure enough, they are not cast iron as the mechanic had supposed. Guess that puts that question to rest. (Actually, it makes it moot, as we say in the law.)

Here's a picture comparing the newer three ring piston that was put in 50,000 miles ago to my original 4 ring. The newer three ring is 17.1 oz. compared to my original that's 17.8 oz.



And here's the newest SealedPower 4 ring that was put in 20,000 miles ago compared to my original so you can compare the newer three ring to the new four ring. The new 4 ring weighs 19.3 oz, 2.2 oz. or 10% heavier than the originals.



Would that slight difference in weight between the original pistons and these new ones require any changes to the crank? It didn't seem to when they were put in 20,000 miles ago.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

In a way it's kinda good to see that I'm not the only one that has some difficulty finding an ideal mechanic locally. But, alas, we don't live in an ideal world. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. We find the best we can then try to supplement their weaknesses with our strengths and hopefully it will all work out for the best.

`

This is such a true statement...not everyone has a pile of dollar bills to send the engine across country for a guarantee,,,and even after that,,,what happens if there is a problem.

I think many offering advice, have been there and done that...so we who have an idea of what we want from a machine shop, sorta lay it out ahead of time to them..but, if you don't have the hands on and the experience of goofing something up, you really don't know what to ask for..you put your trust in the shop to get it done right.

Don't let the "you should have sent it to me"..type of response, or "what a bad machinist" you had discourage you.

The shop you took it to has owned up to it,,might be a learning experience for them...yes, will cost you time, but they;ll most likely get it right.

I often wonder about some on here at the Barn, "sounds like a bad carb rebuild"...etc...are they trying to help, or are they trying to drum up more business?

Anyway...they owned up to fix the issue, have them do i.

[Mike B]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Would that slight difference in weight between the original pistons and these new ones require any changes to the crank? It didn't seem to when they were put in 20,000 miles ago.

No..a shop would not change the crank to accommodate a piston, they would either adjust the piston (if possible) or advise you all need to be matched

[Kube]

quote:
Would that slight difference in weight between the original pistons and these new ones require any changes to the crank? It didn't seem to when they were put in 20,000 miles ago.[/QUOTE]

The crank does not care if the pistons are (ex.) 17 grams or 20 grams. What the crank does care about is that the rods with pistons attached are all of matching weight to one another.

[Ronnie]

Henry just using your numbers the reciprocating weight has increased by 124.8gr and you haven't included the new rings with the weight (Or the small end of the rod)so the figures are still short to get actual recip weight.Recip weight and rotating weight needs to be calculated to conclude the bob weight for 1 cylinder which in turn must be doubled for the bob weight for 1 crank throw. These are only rough numbers as the scale should be in grams to get more accuracy. The balance guru's will be able to with their vast knowledge give you a more definite answer as to the effects of having the recip weight increase that amount.
Here is some grass roots info on bob weights and balance programs to read.This in its self is another world.This is only a very small amount of info on engine balancing.I hope the inquisitive minds enjoy this tutorial on engine balance.

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...h_terminology/

R

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

Well, I've never got into this long thread but I'm going to a little story about balance an engine. A friend had 39 Merc. he asked me about building the engine, I said yes but I don't pull engines. He brought the car to another shop that pulls engines and rebuild them, I know the shop, nice guys but not really a flathead place. After they put the engine back into the car they called me to see if I would come up and listen to the engine, I went up, they started the engine , it idled good and sounded good, rev it up a little and a vribrate, I said I'd pull the engine and have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced. They did that and wheel and pressure was all right so they disassemable the engine. To get this story a little shorted. The problem was the original pistons 3 ring cast iron but very light, the replaced piston were 4 ring aluminum pistons and a lot heaver that the original, The balancer had to due a lot to the crank to get everything balanced. THATS WHY I HAVE ALL MY ENGINES BALANCED. Of course they have to be arsemabled right. Walt Don't worry about the spelling.

[Ronnie]

^^^^ More words of wisdom!!!!
Verify the clutch assy before any work continues it's a no brainer.

R

[Ol' Ron]

Just think, nobody balanced engines back in the DAY. Most major rebuilders don't balance their engines. And yet they keep running on and on. However I do think that Ol'Henry has a balance problem, not sure what is is. In all the years of racing, I never knew anyone that had their engines balanced. Because nobody did it. Bell In patterson Ny did it but you'd have to wait 6 months for it.

[GOSFAST]

Heads-up guy's, let me add some about balancing, the formula for getting the Flathead (and most others) bobweight balance numbers is as follows:

You take the weight of 2 large ends on the conn rods, 2 rod brgs (4 inserts) for the conventional single brg setup. (It would be 1 rod brg/both halves for a single early "dual" rod brg).

This gives you the rotating weight!

You then take the weight of 1 piston, 1 wrist pin, 1 ring set (single piston), 2 pin-locks, and 1 rod pin-end. These become the reciprocating numbers.

Some builders add a small number (3 or 4 grams) for oil, we've never done it. It is our belief the oil actually acts as a "dampener" when running. In reality the oil weight is a non-issue!

I'll place an example here using all factory numbers for an 8BA. The formula goes like this:

Rotating weight:
Total rod=528 grms. (Big end=402 / pin-end=126)
Large end on rods: 2 x 402=804
Rod brgs=52 grms: 2 x 52=104

Rotating weight =908 grms (This is considered 100% rotating)

Reciprocating weight:
Piston (OEM)=380 grms.
Pin (OEM)=120 grms.
Rings (4-ring piston)=64 grms.
Pin-locks (OEM)=2 grms. (In reality this is also an unneccesary number, but thats what they weigh)
Rod pin-end=126

Reciprocating weight=692 grms. (This is considered a 50% reciprocating balance job)

So, it would look like this:
(Rotating) 402 + 402 + 104 = 908
(Reciprocating) 380 + 120 + 64 + 2 + 126 = 692

Total (single) bobweight: 980 + 692 = 1600 grms. There will be a total of 4 bobweights, one for each journal, weighing 1600 grms each. When "building" the bobweights, their total number (1600) gets divided by 2 and would be 800 grms for each half of each bobweight!

The entire procedure and numbers above are for a 50% balance job. This is pretty much the "standard" for most V-8's, it is typical of the Flatheads.

You can change that 50% number to 48% or 52% (or more or less) and this would be considered an "under-balance" or "over-balance" formula. We use it occasionally for race-only builds where the RPM is consistently higher most times.

(Add) I have a balance card here from November 1988, a '53 Ford 239" Flattie, the bobweight on the stock rebuild was 1622 grams. Just for a comparison I have another from a 2009 build for a '53 Merc 255" using a 1637 bobweight! Things (weights) haven't really changed at all over the years!

(Add) These numbers sort of confirm what Ron is saying above here.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I would add here from what we've learned through the years with the Flatheads (the same goes for many other mfr's as well) if you were to "mix & match" any OEM factory components there would be NO vibration issues whatsoever! Clutches and flywheels are mostly another issue.

[Kerk]

I would look for a problem with the clutch & or pressure plate and replace the piolt bearing while it is apart. Jmho kx

[Ol' Ron]

Where do you find a 380 g piston?? And would 20 or 30 grams make a difference when you drilled your balance holes??

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Where do you find a 380 g piston?? And would 20 or 30 grams make a difference when you drilled your balance holes??

Hi Ron, let me answer the second part of your question first. There really is no way to tell??

Depending on the tolerances the shaft was balanced to from "day-one" by adding a 20 or 30 gram piston it could be worse or it may actually be better. This is something we don't know until the weights are made and you get an initial reading on the crank!

Having said that I can say with all honesty you will not "feel" any vibration from the piston differences you show above. But they would have to be consistent with all 8 pistons. If you wanted to verify this info a simple call to Federal-Mogul would give you an answer. It's always been their contention that if all 8 pistons were changed there'd be no issue! I tend to agree, to a point.

I just want to stipulate here I am NOT recommending not balancing ANY rebuilt engine's, doing this for a living we could NEVER run the risk of possibly having a vibration issue! We actually run 2 balancers here, sometimes together. We have a Stewart-Warner (hard-bearing deal) and a newer style CWT. ALL strokers regardless of mfr get done on the CWT (there are no hard brgs, shaft runs on Teflon) it makes the job much easier and it is much faster than the Warner! Both are very accurate however.

Now for the first part of your question, I have here with me now a piston that is in the photo below. It is a factory std bore Flathead, this particular one weighs 370 grams, the pin weighs 130, and it is part#EAC-6110-A, it is a FOMOCO piece! I have some "Nylen" stock replacements here, .030"/.060" over, that weigh 395 grams.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. One other item I missed about balancing, the shaft actually gets balanced on each end (obviously), this explains the holes in the front and rear c'weights. but it is also done on another "plane" (sort of like a long straight perfectly round 6.000" shaft), normally speaking and under ideal conditions if you remove X amount of weight from the front c'weight you would remove the identical amount 180* from the rear. You will find this consistent on almost all factory crankshafts, the problem gets way out in left field when you order these new stroker shafts. One reason we like the Eagle FH cranks, they balance up much better and much easier! (Here's the piston photo)

[Ol' Ron]

Don't know what I was thinking of. I some how thought the Ross pistons were heaver than that. About the balancing. Just for giggles, suppose you balznced an engine and then ghanged the pistons to some that were 20 or 30 g rams heaver or lighter. Would you rebalance the assembly??? By the way, have had the 294 over 5k, very smpth. Thanks.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

What do you do if a clutch change is required when all is done on flywheel as a complete assy???

Most are balanced by themselves to "zero"
so a change won't the balance.

R

I agree that 'zero' is the best, but I've seen many performance machine shops still mark the flywheel and clutch - so I install them exactly that way. In the most recent engine builds that I do, I specify that I want a zero-balance on everything - as it makes it easy to change a clutch later on. BUT - I typically pull the flywheel and have them check the balance of both together . . . just to make sure. To me, the check is worth it -- as it is a whole lot easier than pulling the whole dang thing out later on . . . because the two components were not checked as one.

B&S

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Don't know what I was thinking of. I some how thought the Ross pistons were heaver than that. About the balancing. Just for giggles, suppose you balznced an engine and then ghanged the pistons to some that were 20 or 30 g rams heaver or lighter. Would you rebalance the assembly??? By the way, have had the 294 over 5k, very smpth. Thanks.

I would - but I'm a bit anal when it comes to balancing as I've spun a lot of flatheads to 6K or more and they sure seem to hold together better when I know the balance is spot on.

[Ol' Ron]

Sometimes we confuse our 4k engines for the 8K engines. It's 250 bucks to balance areound here and the wait is forever.

[Ol' Ron]

Well I've asked that question of several NASCAR engine builders and they said it wouldn't make a measurable difference

[Lawrie]

I have just got 8 rebuilt rods for my 33 engine,this engine was as smooth as silk, I,m going to replace the rods in it as they were .004 oversize on the big end bore so getting bearings was a problem,hence the rod change out,I ,m going to buy a set of engine balancing scales and do them myself as to get them done here is WAY more than the cost of the scales,I plan on weighing the rods that came out and adjusting the replacement ones to the same weight.
Lawrie

[Ol' Ron]

Lawrie
I made a balance scale by putting a bar with a hole in it's center and a wire hook at each end, now put a rod at each end untill you find the lightest one and make all the rest the same. You'll be supprised at how close they all are. If you use a set of rods from the same engine, there balanced as a set from the factory. Probably a good reason you don't have to balance these engines. Good luck. I don't bother with the small end.

[supereal]

That sounds like a balance problem with the flywheel. When we resurface a flywheel we rebalance it.

[George/Maine]

I would scrap that flywheel been redone to many times.
I have another guess the quality control today is not good.
I would look at the weights of those pistons, dimensions,
Doesn't say anything knocks, so rods and bearing must be good.

[bobH]

If I have followed this thread correctly... I believe the pistons and rods are the same ones used at the last 'rebuild' - something like 20K (or so) miles ago before the current 'rebuild'. I don't believe Henry complained about balance during those miles on the previous rebuild. For this reason, I'm thinking that he's not going to find the vibration problem due to pistons and rods. (Course, I still think an engine ought to be balanced - that's just me, and OT, here)
The crank came from his first engine. No balance comments back then.
Based on what I've read here, I'd think the crank, and pistons/rods, ought to go together, 'good-enough', without vibration issues. (And, repeating, I still think it ought to be balanced, still OT here.)
So, what's left? The flywheel - I think I recall it's one that Henry has used before? It ought to be 'good-enough'. Clutch? It's a new, unknown. Assembly errors? I don't have any in mind - maybe someone else can offer ideas? Harmonic balancer? It doesn't have one.
I'm guessing here... Those one or two damaged rods - were they replaced with rods from another set? (This being during the most recent rebuild.) My guess is they probably were. If so, is there a possibility of a mis-matched set of rods? I'm 'with' Ron's comment above - I try to use sets of rods that all came from the same engine. If unknown, or if they ar not from the same engine, then I weigh them - total weight, and big-end weight, and try to match them.
In the old days, when we had buckets of rods, I would try to hand-select rods that all matched, weight-wise, without any 'weight-adjustments'. Nowdays, I no longer have that option (buckets-of), and I have to 'adjust' weights.

[Old Henry]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by Binx

Come-backs to a shop are usually low priority work since they don't pay the bills. Visit the shop often with maybe a box of doughnuts for goodwill. Catch the flies with sugar or Old Henry may be out of commission for a long time.

Lonnie

Good advice. My last conversation with Paul after I took my car back in was less than friendly.

So, I dropped in today with a dozen donuts for Paul and found him fabricating a stand to run the engine on outside of the car. He had the engine out and hanging above the stand that he was making. The clutch was off of the flywheel. I asked, "Have you sent the flywheel and clutch to check for balance?" "No." "Why not?" "I'd have to remove the oil pan to get the flywheel off to do that. I decided to run the engine without the clutch and see how it goes." That is exactly what Fort Wayne Clutch said to do when I called them and told them my mechanic thinks the clutch is out of balance. But, it would seem easier to me to check the flywheel and clutch on a balancer before building a stand and running the engine. Oh well. Each to his own.

[flatjack9]

Had he done that initially, there would have been a lot less hassle.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Good advice. My last conversation with Paul after I took my car back in was less than friendly.

So, I dropped in today with a dozen donuts for Paul and found him fabricating a stand to run the engine on outside of the car. He had the engine out and hanging above the stand that he was making. The clutch was off of the flywheel. I asked, "Have you sent the flywheel and clutch to check for balance?" "No." "Why not?" "I'd have to remove the oil pan to get the flywheel off to do that. I decided to run the engine without the clutch and see how it goes." That is exactly what Fort Wayne Clutch said to do when I called them and told them my mechanic thinks the clutch is out of balance. But, it would seem easier to me to check the flywheel and clutch on a balancer before building a stand and running the engine. Oh well. Each to his own.

Just opinion here, and we all know what that is worth....
At this point, or at this juncture, I don't see much point in trying to run the engine. You have already run it. The 'stand' was your car. You already know it vibrates. All your mechanic can do, is run it with and without the PP & disc. After that, if the flywheel is removed, I think Paul does not have a way to start it. Not much point in building a stand, for so little return.
In my area, I have a clutch place (called Clutch Masters), that can (and does) run the flywheel, with & without the PP. It's so quick and easy, they don't even charge to do it. (And, if they do a balance, drill hole(s), the charge is very minimal.) So, if a problem is found with the clutch and flywheel, then it needs to be corrected. I assume you & Paul have access to such a place in your local area.
At that point, then the engine, with flywheel & clutch, need to be run. And, if it still vibrates, well... you know what's next.
It would be nice if you have access to a vibration meter. It would remove guess work from 'how much vibration is acceptable'. If Paul runs it now, I would imagine he would run it with the PP installed (baseline), then run again with PP removed. If there is a problem, he would hopefully feel the difference. With a meter, he could know for sure if there is a problem. The meter that I'm thinking of, and the one I have used, has a probe that you hold against suspect areas - in this case, near the rear main, probably where the pan bolts to the block.
As said... Just opinion

BTW, if you had/have a meter, you can also hold the probe near the center main (on the pan rail), and near the front main. Usually, this will direct you to the area where vibration is coming from. For example, pistons/rods/crank, near the front, or near the middle main. This is usually good for rotating machinery, motors, driveshafts, and the like. Not sure if this would work on a running engine.

[Old Henry]

Yeah. I was kinda surprised that he thought it easier to build a stand and run the engine for whatever that would prove rather than just checking the balance of the flywheel and clutch.

I told him I had another road trip planned in two weeks. (I missed the one planned last weekend that he had finished the car for just three days before then discovered the intolerable vibration.) He was confident all would be in order for that one. Hope he's right.

[Bertha]

Prof. O. Henry,

I’m sure I speak for all the “mechanics” posting on this and your other, “repair my vibration & re-build my engine please threads.”

You are the most optimistic, easy going customer in this galaxy.
In 40+years of KnlBusting you are truly one-of-a-kind.

May the Big Henry in the sky watch over you…. and ‘Paul’

BTW…been following your adventures for quite awhile now, enjoyed them all.

Bob

[Old Henry]

Stopped in to check things this morning. Paul had the engine on the stand and had run it without the clutch. No better. He started and ran it while I was there and it definitely vibrated at higher RPM. I could see it shaking from a distance.

He's now going to drop the pan so he can remove the flywheel to have checked. If that checks out OK (balanced and all) he'll have to tear into the crankshaft.

I repeat a question that I've asked before without an answer:
How can one know if there is something wrong with a crankshaft other than out of balance that maybe can't be repaired and must be replaced? What tests other than balancing would indicate such?

I don't remember this kind of vibration when I ran the car with this original crankshaft before it was replace in 2009. I have stored it horizontally, which, I have recently read, is not good for some reason.

So, how can I know whether this crankshaft has some unrepairable problem and needs replaced?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Bertha

Prof. O. Henry,

I’m sure I speak for all the “mechanics” posting on this and your other, “repair my vibration & re-build my engine please threads.”

You are the most optimistic, easy going customer in this galaxy.
In 40+years of KnlBusting you are truly one-of-a-kind.

May the Big Henry in the sky watch over you…. and ‘Paul’

BTW…been following your adventures for quite awhile now, enjoyed them all.

Bob

Thanks, Bob.
I still have a few adventures on my bucket list if I can ever get my car back on the road. Hopefully in two weeks and again in 4 weeks.
Certainly have my fingers crossed.

[scooder]

Henry,
With your crank question. If there was an issue with the crank that caused the vibration, the balancer should point it out. If the crank was bent, that would show on the balancer I feel, by the way it "asked" for added or removed weight. An experienced operator would have picked this up. Also if bent, it would show on the crank grinder, you can here the machine and it would sound "off" again experience is a given here.
I'd also like to think they checked the crank for straight, either on V blocks and dial gauge or again on the grinder.
If the crank was "off" in any way, the machine shop should have caught it..
This is why the innards should have been balanced, it would have/should have been caught earlier.
But we all make mistakes.
Good luck, and keep us posted, maybe we can all learn a bit from there mistake?
Martin.

[supereal]

It seems almost too simple, but this type of periodic vibration can also be caused by an incorrect V belt. Modern V belts usually don't fit the contours of the old Ford pulleys, where the power is applied to the sides, allowing the belt to ride down too far. The belt must be very tight to handle the load, and ends up in the bottom of the groove. The belt will resonate at a certain speed, producing the vibration. The cure is to use belts sold by good old car vendors, not the local parts places. As to running an engine on a stand, we just don't do it because it can be unsafe. We rebuild lots of engines, and haven't found it justifies the time and cost.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by supereal

It seems almost too simple, but this type of periodic vibration can also be caused by an incorrect V belt.

By "periodic vibration" I wonder if you mean a vibration at just a narrow range of RPM such as an unbalanced tire that bounces at a narrow range of speed but not below or above it? My engine vibration is not like that. It starts at a certain RPM and only gets worse the faster it goes. I tried "driving through it" by getting well above the 45-50 mph range that it started at and it didn't go away the faster I went, it just got worse. And I got almost to 70 trying to "get past it."

[Mart]

I'm crossing my fingers it's just the flywheel. It looks well past it's sell by date in the pics I have seen. Prof, do you have access to a good used flywheel that could be used as is?

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Flywheel would certainly be the easiest fix. I don't have one but could surely get one if it comes down to that being the problem.

[rooboy]

I had a similar situation as this one..I cut a piece of 2x1 timber about 12"in. long..which i held on the head(s) on it's end on the engine while reving it...In doing this, it told me that the engine was not vibrating and it was coming from elsewhere....
As it turned out it was the engine mounts that were causing the problem..
I replaced them ....no more problem...
When fitting the mounts, make sure they are fitted correctly..especially the underneath rubber..it has to be in the cross member correctly...
Also check the gearbox mounts and tail shaft area for wear and loose bolts......
This may help you sort it.......

[Bertha]

OH,

Any up-dates? Inquiring minds need to know.

Bob

[Old Henry]

Here's the next act in the drama including the thrill packed ending: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153469

And more here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154012