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Old 10-18-2014, 06:07 AM   #41
scooder
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

Bobh, if the engine is a real bear to get in or out, I sometimes make fire and smoke on the floor with them. Oil pressure, check, no leaks, check. Flick it in the car, connect it up, make necessary adjustments, and drive it hard.
As has been posted many, many times, you can easily undo The bore hone and ring seal by running a new engine on a stand with no load.
Martin.
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Old 10-18-2014, 06:12 AM   #42
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

I may have it wrong, but the flywheel has been in bad shape for a while. If it has been skimmed, it may not have been for the first time. The factory balance may have been lost. I would be looking for a non skimmed but serviceable 59A flywheel that still has it's factory balance. If not have the flywheel and clutch balanced as a unit.

As Colin says, if they are checked and are within balance specs, the imbalance must be deeper within the motor.

Sorry to always seeming to be the bearer of bad news.

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Old 10-18-2014, 07:35 AM   #43
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

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Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.
Come-backs to a shop are usually low priority work since they don't pay the bills. Visit the shop often with maybe a box of doughnuts for goodwill. Catch the flies with sugar or Old Henry may be out of commission for a long time.

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Old 10-18-2014, 07:46 AM   #44
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

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Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.

Unfortunately, from their "research" and "talking to people" they have concluded that the vibration is coming totally from the Fort Wayne clutch I bought and gave them to put on. So, their plan is to remove the engine, put a different clutch on, and put the engine back in to see if that fixed it. I, of course, wondered why they just didn't check everything while they had the engine out - crank balance, flywheel and clutch balance, piston and rods balance. They are just so sure that it is just the clutch. "So, what if that one change doesn't get rid of the vibration? Then what?" I ask. "Well, we'll just have to take the engine out again and try something else." Oh boy. Oh well, as long as it's on their dime I guess if they want to take it out, change the paint color, and put it back in to see if that fixes it, fine by me. At least they are taking full responsibility to get it right and satisfy me as their new customer. That's a relief and take a load off me.
The possibility, albeit a long shot, I suppose does exist that the vibration is the clutch. If it is, good for you and good for them. Me? I would not get my hopes placed too high on their diagnosis.
They have already proven to be well, less than proper mechanics / machinists.
Best of luck...
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

You should have the shop stop and check the balance of the current assembly before they go to all the trouble of purchasing a new assembly and installing the engine and only to find out the vibration isn't the clutch flywheel assembly.That is a simple trouble shoot as to where the balance problem occurs.If they don't confirm the trouble from the get go they won't enjoy removing everything for the third time fixing it and being the proud owner of two clutch assemblies.If I were you all would halt until the suspect clutch has passed or failed the balance check.This is not rocket science just common sense.The problem isn't flathead related at all only someone shooting in the dark hoping for a successful outcome.

R
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Old 10-18-2014, 10:01 AM   #46
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When you say the "runout" of the flywheel was checked was it checked in both directions----runout of the face of the flywheel, and runout of the pilot bearing hole

When a flywheel is balanced off the crankshaft it is centered on the mandrel at the pilot bearing hole ----if tghe crankshaft wasn't properly centered in the crankshaft grinding machine there will be runout at the flywheel mounting

I had this problem with model A crankshafts ---3 different shops, .004 to .008 off center, was told by shops "it's just an old car, it won't matter"

I have bought several sets of Ford boxed rods,and pistons, all were balanced to +- 1 gram ,so Ford worried about balance on the production line and had tighter specs than most companys do
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Old 10-18-2014, 10:30 AM   #47
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When you say the "runout" of the flywheel was checked was it checked in both directions----runout of the face of the flywheel, and runout of the pilot bearing hole

When a flywheel is balanced off the crankshaft it is centered on the mandrel at the pilot bearing hole ----if tghe crankshaft wasn't properly centered in the crankshaft grinding machine there will be runout at the flywheel mounting

I had this problem with model A crankshafts ---3 different shops, .004 to .008 off center, was told by shops "it's just an old car, it won't matter"

I have bought several sets of Ford boxed rods,and pistons, all were balanced to +- 1 gram ,so Ford worried about balance on the production line and had tighter specs than most companys do
Kurt, You are correct in all that you've stated. I'd like to add to your comment in regard to Ford balancing rods, etc. They (Ford) did in fact do a much better job at balancing than their competitors in those days. Taking apart an old engine I would typically find rods, etc. with weights within very close tolerances of one another.

It is my feeling that Olhenry chose yet another "chop shop" to do the so called 'rebuilding" of his engine and is once again suffering the consequence of that choice.
With the very apparent damage that was done on that engine prior to this "rebuild" ANY decent mechanic / machinist would have INSISTED on being extremely thorough this time around.
The way that engine was (described to be) knocking in a previous thread, it is within a fair certainty that the rods were hammered out of true and most likely out of round. Yet no mention was made of the rods being reconditioned and subsequently balanced.
Also, no mention that the engine was COMPLETELY dissembled and properly cleaned. Another thing ANY half way decent mechanic / machinist would insist upon.
I truly hope this works out eventually in a good way but all the signs are pointing away from that outcome.
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Old 10-18-2014, 10:41 AM   #48
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

X2 on the factory balance.
I would be worried about trash in the oil passages and the condition of the rods on the bad throw. I think the engine should be pulled completly down and the main oil galley cleaned. The oil pump, cam bearings and even the cam in suspect due to the trash. The cam has to come out to remove the fuel pump bushing. I would send you my driver.
I don't thing you should continue with the floating bearings and crank. Nobody in a shop would know how to check and fit them. The 8BA stuff is easy to check.
You could run the engine on the floor without the clutch as a check. Pull the pan and the clutch and reinstall the pan. It would be nice if that fixes it. I would still pull it down and check the rods for dammage and the oil passages.
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:02 AM   #49
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

[QUOTE=Andy;964509]X2 on the factory balance.

I don't thing you should continue with the floating bearings and crank. Nobody in a shop would know how to check and fit them. The 8BA stuff is easy to check.

Really? No one?
Um, there are a LOT of guys that do in fact have the skills required to check them properly. In fact, any decent machinist that did not have the experience should be smart enough to figure it out.
These engines are fairly simple...
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Old 10-18-2014, 11:25 AM   #50
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

Being a very simple minded old man, I am wondering if the engine was ever checked for vibration when run without the fan belt, thereby eliminating fan, water pumps and generator or even a bad belt ?
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Old 10-18-2014, 12:40 PM   #51
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[QUOTE=Kube;964521]
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X2 on the factory balance.

I don't thing you should continue with the floating bearings and crank. Nobody in a shop would know how to check and fit them. The 8BA stuff is easy to check.

Really? No one?
Um, there are a LOT of guys that do in fact have the skills required to check them properly. In fact, any decent machinist that did not have the experience should be smart enough to figure it out.
These engines are fairly simple...
I agree. I was too strong. I Just went thru 5 shops trying to get mine built. One cracked and ruined a block with a lifting eye. One tried to balance the rods with washers. Another ruined rods and pistons with crazy metal removing. Another assembled the engine with the rods backwards and the oil passages completely clogged. A good shop was hard for me to find. Add the split bearings and the chance of success goes down.
From what I can read between the lines, the shop in question does not seem to grasp the thought about the rods wearing on the big ends.
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Old 10-18-2014, 01:16 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

[QUOTE=Andy;964586]
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From what I can read between the lines, the shop in question does not seem to grasp the thought about the rods wearing on the big ends.
My rods were reconditioned to this extent: They were, of course, removed from the engine along with the pistons, cam shaft, and valves to clean the engine. The "big end" that I assume means the end that connects around the crank shaft, were all trued by machining the mating surfaces to reduce any oversize inside diameters so that the rods could then be machined to match the new bearings.
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Old 10-18-2014, 01:23 PM   #53
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I Just went thru 5 shops trying to get mine built. One cracked and ruined a block with a lifting eye. One tried to balance the rods with washers. Another ruined rods and pistons with crazy metal removing. Another assembled the engine with the rods backwards and the oil passages completely clogged. A good shop was hard for me to find. Add the split bearings and the chance of success goes down.
In a way it's kinda good to see that I'm not the only one that has some difficulty finding an ideal mechanic locally. But, alas, we don't live in an ideal world. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. We find the best we can then try to supplement their weaknesses with our strengths and hopefully it will all work out for the best.

The mechanics that I'm now working with have all rebuilt hundreds of engines each (there are three of them). They have just never done a flathead so are having to learn some of the quirks of them. I do have full confidence that they will eventually get it right even though it may take them a bit longer and a bit more effort than it might take someone else. At least they no longer seem to want to charge me for their education.

Since realizing that I can't count on them to get it exactly right on their own, because of the vibration problem, I have and will continue to print and deliver to them every suggestion (with insults redacted) that I have received for their assistance. They do read every word and hopefully they will consider modifying their diagnoses and treatment accordingly. Thanks for all of your contributions and keep them coming.
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Old 10-18-2014, 01:37 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

I would buy a new flywheel from say Speedway and I can't see going with another pressure plate but why not.
I just looked a 8 rods here for my rebuild 5 were the same 3 other not the same.
If the crank was done right all the same, now if some of the big ends were not.
You could have difference size bearing in one or more.
How many were scrap in your engine and were did the replacement come from .
That's about 2k rpms mine had a knock.
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Old 10-18-2014, 02:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

Hi Henry, I'm assuming you've tried running the unit without the belt(s), eliminating all the "driven" pieces??

You really should inspect the flywheel/clutch ass'y very closely first, this means having a very reputable shop with a decent balancer run up both pieces.

We recently went through this dilemma with a customer in Maryland, he sent his flywheel/clutch ass'y to us for evaluation. We hadn't seen either piece before. Both were new and neither piece was balanced correctly. They were even worse when bolted together. We balanced the setup as a unit, indexed everything, and returned it. It WAS his problem, upon running up the pieces we knew it immediately. The balancer doesn't lie!

One more item to remember, when working with a 14"/18" wheel ANY imbalance present is much worse at the 7"/9" radius than the 3" crank radius! It is much more critical at that span. You will tend not to "feel" a 10 gram imbalance at 3", you WILL at 7"/9" out!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. When you are working with all stock (internal) components there should not be a single issue changing components, you should be able to interchange cranks, rods, and even pistons. Should have no noticeable adverse effects. Resizing rods will have no effect, "cutting" the crank to an undersize will have no effect. Not "balance-wise"!
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Old 10-18-2014, 04:46 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

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No, Ronnie.
This is a 4" merc offset ground for a 4 1/8" stroke. Was supposedly balanced, etc., by a shop that said they had built many flatheads and knew how to do the machine work.
What he didn't tell me was that the flathead guy had left some years before.
Here's what was done wrong:
Bore too tight by .001
Crank (rod journals) had taper and one egg-shaped. Had to be reground to .030 under.
Rod bearings set too loose (full floating). Rods had to be resized
Block had several cracks (was magnafluxed by same shop)
Poor balance job
There was more, but you get the jist of it
You were wise to take it to John Beck - that dude knows his stuff and is a total hoot to work around! He does our dyno work on our blown Flathead Cadillac motor for Bonneville - somehow we've managed to crank out 650 HP on a 3 main engine! I only wish I was closer to John - would have more opportunity to work with him on some of my other goofy projects.
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Old 10-18-2014, 04:57 PM   #57
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

I'm glad that they will work with you to get it right - that is the most important thing. Every single one of us and all shops make mistakes - it is WHAT we do about them and HOW we go about it that distinguishes the GREAT people and businesses from the others.

A flathead engine is internally balanced - so you can mix-match component assemblies (as long as the assemblies are balanced). Example, you can pull the flywheel/clutch out of one engine and swap them in another - no need to re-balance the internals of the engine as long as the flywheel/clutch are correctly balanced (and the crankshaft/rods/bearings/pistons/rings were also balanced as an assembly).

Flywheels/Clutches: Some folks can/will balance each component independently of the other - such that there are no issues with indexing the clutch plate to the flywheel. But, it is not a big deal if a clutch plate is indexed/balanced to the flywheel - typically both are marked with punch marks to denote the index position. On most of the flatheads that I've built, the machine shops will specify/mark the index position - as it is EXACTLY how they were put together an ran on the balancer . . . so it only makes sense to keep them together and to install them in the same manner.

Good luck with your quest and please let the Barn know what the problem actually was and how it was resolved.

Take care,

B&S
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Old 10-18-2014, 05:24 PM   #58
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I'm glad that they will work with you to get it right - that is the most important thing. Every single one of us and all shops make mistakes - it is WHAT we do about them and HOW we go about it that distinguishes the GREAT people and businesses from the others.

A flathead engine is internally balanced - so you can mix-match component assemblies (as long as the assemblies are balanced). Example, you can pull the flywheel/clutch out of one engine and swap them in another - no need to re-balance the internals of the engine as long as the flywheel/clutch are correctly balanced (and the crankshaft/rods/bearings/pistons/rings were also balanced as an assembly).

Flywheels/Clutches: Some folks can/will balance each component independently of the other - such that there are no issues with indexing the clutch plate to the flywheel. But, it is not a big deal if a clutch plate is indexed/balanced to the flywheel - typically both are marked with punch marks to denote the index position. On most of the flatheads that I've built, the machine shops will specify/mark the index position - as it is EXACTLY how they were put together an ran on the balancer . . . so it only makes sense to keep them together and to install them in the same manner.

Good luck with your quest and please let the Barn know what the problem actually was and how it was resolved.

Take care,

B&S
What do you do if a clutch change is required when all is done on flywheel as a complete assy???

Most are balanced by themselves to "zero"
so a change won't the balance.

R
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Old 10-18-2014, 05:32 PM   #59
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

From what I had noted in olhenry's earlier thread and from what these current guys did(did NOT do) , my hunch is it is NOT the clutch parts. If I were a betting man, I'd say it's the rods / pistons.
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Old 10-18-2014, 05:38 PM   #60
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Default Re: Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

Here's a question that has been raised by the mechanic. Does any change need to be made to the crank when replacing the original cast iron pistons with newer aluminum ones? The original crank that has just gone back into the engine only ever had the original cast iron pistons used with it. When it was replaced with the other crank, the pistons were also replace with newer aluminum ones. Does that require any change to the crank?
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