Starting with 12v running with 6v

[frederic]

any one have a diagram/schematic of system using two optima 6v batteries in a 6v system. Starting done with the two 6v batteries ( how ever they are hooked up) and running with the one 6v battery. the system I saw, for a brief time only, used original start push button and seemed to use only ONE solenoid. It looked cool but did not see how it was wired.

Fredeirc

[Gary Tosel]

I have two 6 volt batteries in my 36 Ford 5W Coupe that does what you are describing. It starts on 12 volts to the starter only and all other circuits are 6 volts.

This allows charging the batteries in parallel at 6 volts and that was the only change. There is a way to use two 6 volt solenoids to do the same thing as the use of a Orpin switch. I bought the switch a long time ago at J.C. Whitney, but it probably is available on line. It also includes wiring diagrams for use with Ford 6 volt systems that use a ground type starter button.

[JSeery]

This was something that we did on VWs in the 70s and 80s. It uses a solenoid like Gary is referring to.

[frederic]

Gary thanks I will look it up and do some research

Frederic

[JSeery]

http://www.texasindustrialelectric.c...1119844_6V.asp

[Bob C]

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And it only costs $595.00

Bob

[JSeery]

They have a wiring diagram!

I don't remember what the VW series-parallel solenoids cost, but I'm sure they weren't too expensive. But no idea if they are still available.

[rotorwrench]

The key is that the 12-volt capability is isolated from the 6-volt system. Since a lot of old Fords original source for 6-volt power was at the battery side of the start relay, isolation would require that to be relocated to a 6-volt source with the starter relay being the only one connected to the 12-volt source. It would still have to be positive ground and the 6-volt system power connection would have to be made at the primary battery source. The secondary battery would be connected in series with the primary and the negative terminal of the secondary would only connect to the starter relay. The starter relay would be better off if it were rated for 12-volts but a stock relay would still work for a while at least.

I have a battery cart that uses two 12-volt batteries to make either 12-volt or 24-volt (both batteries in series) connections. It needs no relays to do that but does need to be connected correctly for both to work properly. The 12-volt side is just connected to the one battery. It requires batteries with a bolted type post in order to make two connections at a single post easily.

[cmbrucew]

Here is an idea I was exploring a couple of years ago.
It might work for you.
Bruce

[scooder]

I'm interested in why you feel the need?
Is there an issue that your trying to resolve?
Martin.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by cmbrucew

Here is an idea I was exploring a couple of years ago.
It might work for you.
Bruce

This is basically a 12V system with a 6v tap off for some systems. It requires a 12V alt/gen doesn't it?

Think we were talking about a 6V system that only applied 12V to the starter, anyway that was the type of system we used on the VWs. The idea was (on the VW) to up the starting voltage but run on the normal system. The 12V was used for starting only.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by scooder

I'm interested in why you feel the need?
Is there an issue that your trying to resolve?
Martin.

I am 100% behind Martin on this question. Sounds like you are trying to fix it until it is broke. What are you trying to accomplish (do you have a problem you are trying to solve?)? I bet you are trying to fix a problem that could be fixed by cleaning all of the grounds and maybe rebuilding the starter motor. I would just leave it 6 volts or convert to 12 volts. If you do what you are describing (and I don't recommend it) and have bulb headlights instead of sealed beams be sure to run the headlights on 12 volts and use the "Brite" bulbs from Ron Francis, wire-works.com, (800) 292-1940. By the way, what year is your car?

Charlie Stephens

[cmbrucew]

The system I proposed used 12 volts for starting and lights, running on 6 volts.
Yes 12 volt alternator neg ground.
Bruce

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by cmbrucew

The system I proposed used 12 volts for starting and lights, running on 6 volts.
Yes 12 volt alternator neg ground.
Bruce

To me not a bad idea at all, just different than the 12v start only. I think 12v charging and lights is a good solution. When I was younger a lot of folks ran 12v batteries with a center tap to achieve the same thing. Seem to work like a charm, but I never ran one with that setup myself.

[Bill S]

Go 12 volt or 6 volt. Nothing wrong with 6 volt if everything is as it should be. I have 12 volt because of some modern stuff. Seem the buzz word is 8 volt or 12 volt is needed to solve problems. I think the reason is because the they not understand problems they are having. Solve your problem not bandaid it.

[40cpe]

I've read opinions saying that the battery bank will have short life because all of the discharge is coming from one battery and the alternator is overcharging the secondary battery trying to keep the primary battery charged. I don't have any experience with a system like this, but I support the "either-or" approach. It seems a lot less complicated to use one voltage throughout the car.

[cmbrucew]

I also agree straight six volt would be the best, but the OP asked and I tried to help.
Bruce

[frederic]

All items on the car are stock 6 volt items. It just gives the starter a 12 volt kick. The "Orpin" switch (solenoid) does the job. Just finding one that does not cost an arm and a leg !!! Jseery mentioned something about VW's but I dont know what they used this for.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by frederic

All items on the car are stock 6 volt items. It just gives the starter a 12 volt kick. The "Orpin" switch (solenoid) does the job. Just finding one that does not cost an arm and a leg !!! Jseery mentioned something about VW's but I dont know what they used this for.

These were not a stock item, but an aftermarket part. I have used them and there was never a battery problem that I am aware of. Not sure where you would get one now, but were popular (at least with VWs) at one time.

[JSeery]

There is an installation manual for sell on ebay now. Not sure what good it would do without the solenoid! The manual is 29 pages and covers about every car there was at the time.
Another listing for a switch: auction is for a BROCKWAY TRUCK NEW OLD STOCK GENUINE DELCO REMY SERIES PARALLEL SOLENOID STARTER SWITCH. This allows you to use 2 batteries for starting, then automatically switches back to 1 battery for running. This came from the Brockway factory in Cortland NEW YORK when they closed in 1977 . Not sure how many years and models this fits . Approx. 4 " tall , 3 1/4 " diameter . Possibly fits other tractor trailers of the time . this is a VINTAGE new part, not a reproduction.

[BILL WZOREK]

You could always buy a house on top of a hill and roll it down the hill & pop start it every time you want to go to town ~~~ Just kidding ~~~
But it does seem like a lot of work to make some thing more complicated then it has to be.
There is a expression JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE
Of coarse this is just my opinion and it is yours to do as you want.
Please keep us posted on what you decide & how you make out.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Vic Piano]

I removed one of those contraptions from a '47 Lincoln Continental after it had ruined most, if not all, of the 6 volt components in the car... Maybe whoever installed it did it incorrectly but... I really don't see the need for it, if your car is hard to start on 6 volts, you should go over the system, check wiring, grounds, starter motor, etc.

[JM 35 Sedan]

I remember our dearly departed Rumble Seat once mentioning that he had a 12V start, 6V run system in his '34 roadster. Found this information posted by him on BillB's Techno Site. May be of some help to you.

http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/12vboost.htm

[Charlie Stephens]

Have you, as I and others have suggested, cleaned all of your grounds and had your starter tested by a good shop? Are you running battery cables designed for a 6 volt system? The 12 volt cables are smaller and most young people at the parts houses don't know that there is a difference. They will overheat and cause the starter to turn slowly. By the way, I would still like to know the year of your car and what problem you are trying to solve?

Charlie Stephens

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

You could always buy a house on top of a hill and roll it down the hill & pop start it every time you want to go to town ~~~ Just kidding ~~~
But it does seem like a lot of work to make some thing more complicated then it has to be.
There is a expression JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE
Of coarse this is just my opinion and it is yours to do as you want.
Please keep us posted on what you decide & how you make out.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

I know this was intended as a joke "live on top of a hill & pop the clutch every time you want to go", but that is what I did!! Was stationed in Okinawa in the 60s and owned a 6v VW. They have a rainy season where it rains around the clocks for several months. Something about the VW electrical system would build up a lot of resistance when it set overnight. Every morning I would have to remove the distributer cap and wipe it out and clean the points. Sometimes I would also have to clean the starter and battery terminals. This gets old after a while!! Then I decided to just let it coast down the hill and pop the clutch until it would start. Seemed to make it through the day after that, then the next day the same routine.

When I got back to the states I had a few other VWs and all of them seem to have poor 6v systems in them and I never took the time to figure out what the weak link was, (but I can guess now!). Started installing the series-parallel solenoids in them and never had a problem again. They were very easy to hookup and worked great. They are really no different than any other solenoid, just wiring differently internally. After I started looking into this again it appears they are still a popular item for large trucks. Most of them appear to be dual 12v systems now switching between 24v and 12v.

I am not promoting this dual battery approach at all, was just responding to a question about can it be done. I run my cars 12v through out. But I also under the comments about a 6v Ford system working as well now as it did then if properly maintained.

[scooder]

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J, there is a Big difference with Ford and vw 6 volt systems. In good order the Ford system works great, very reliable. The vw 6 volt system in good order is a contradiction in terms. Every and I meen every vw rear engined contraption I've had to work on, has had a bunch of electrical problems. Vw must of known this as they kept changing the wiring at some point.
I'd still like to know what's the problem that the OP has with his 6 volts? Hate to think that some one would change a bunch of stuff and things, spend a fist full of bux, when, for instance, a set of brushes in the starter would have it fixed. Might also save him from replacing the bendix spring that will snap normally at the most annoying moment.
You don't know till you ask,
so pray tell, what's the problem?
Martin.

[BILL WZOREK]

For years Our family ran a fleet of Mack trucks ~ I don't even want to try and guess how many hour's & how many super's I got to eat cold because of those dang Series - parallel switches.
Happy day when pop said I could replace with 1 huge 12V batt. in stead of
4-6V Batt. and 12V starter
After changing a few and saw how little maint. was needed we did the rest of the fleet never to look back.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by scooder

J, there is a Big difference with Ford and vw 6 volt systems. In good order the Ford system works great, very reliable. The vw 6 volt system in good order is a contradiction in terms. Every and I meen every vw rear engined contraption I've had to work on, has had a bunch of electrical problems. Vw must of known this as they kept changing the wiring at some point.
I'd still like to know what's the problem that the OP has with his 6 volts? Hate to think that some one would change a bunch of stuff and things, spend a fist full of bux, when, for instance, a set of brushes in the starter would have it fixed. Might also save him from replacing the bendix spring that will snap normally at the most annoying moment.
You don't know till you ask,
so pray tell, what's the problem?
Martin.

Yep, that's why I posted the comment that I was NOT promoting the dual battery approach. I know a lot of folks like the original 6v systems and they work fine if they are maintain properly and use the correct 6v parts. I prefer a 12v system, but for completely different reasons, it has to do with how I wire them up (non-stock but stock appearance).

[copperpenny]

The system is available now. Check out www.henmach.com. Really works. Uses 2 6 volt Optima batteries in an available case. Batteries wired in parallel. Fits the Ford battery tray.

[dwick01]

When I was a kid I had a '55 ford that started on 12v and ran on 6v. It was a nightmare. Always seemed to have had problems with it. I was only 16 and don't remember what was the cause but thinking the solenoid and voltage regulator was always going out on it. Obviously, electrical problems were abound.

[Kahuna]

What 40cpe has mentioned re overcharging one battery and the discharge of another I believe is true.
When I was going to try this myself (2 12 volt Odyssey batteries), I did a bunch of research and the final answer from some real smart folks said that the drawback was the lessening of service life of both batteries.
My concern was that a single Odyssey battery would'nt hold up well and I wanted a backup in that case.
I shouldn't have been concerned at all, as one battery works just fine.
Jim

[1939 pickup truck]

My first auto was a 1961 VW single cab bus pickup truck
As it was a stalk 6 volt system and Maine can get darn cold
I had a second 12 volt battery back aft next to motor.
With the tail lid lifted and a few simple momentary switches
We had six volts doing the ignition, & twelve spinning it all up.
While my second hand did'led the throttle till all was well...
Then the VW jump started both a 49 FORD pickup truck'
and a 52 Chevy pickup truck with long #2 jumper cables
hard wired to the old Bus. I and the others lived far from town
and the Maine Yankee Nuclear Power Plant in Wiscasset.
Tigger

[Mike B]

The Peterbuilt glider kit I bought to make a transfer out of, had a Detroit engine in it (removed), but had the series parallel switch, as the Detroit started on 24, but all else ran on 12..now I don't know what the Alt on it was, but do know that Detroit engines in Peterbuilt's were like this for a very loong time...may even still be for all I know...and never problems.

But, as other's said...seems a lot to do in a car to get more ooomph for starting...I'd think one of those battery jump starter things in the trunk might come in handy when needed.