Oil Pan and Drag Link Interference 8BA in 36 Cabriolet

[36cabrioletfrank]

This is my first post - 36 Cabriolet with an 8BA engine and 1937 steering box. See attached pictures.

I think my oil pan is from an 8BA truck engine. Can anyone verify this from the pics below?

My drag link has been modified to clear my oil pan. When I hit a bump in the road, it clanks pretty loudly. If it breaks, it's a serious safety issue. I would like to find an oil pan that would allow me to install a straight, unmodified drag link. Is that possible? Will an oil pan from a passenger car 8BA, 59AB, or earlier flathead engine solve my problem?

I think the early flathead engines had a road breather opening in the oil pan. If I found one of those and welded the breather shut would that work?

Will any non-8BA oil pan accommodate my existing oil pump and pickup?

Thanks for your thoughts and advice.

[tubman]

I put an 8BA in my '36 3-Window about 30 years ago and don't remember having to modify the drag link at all. I think I used a Merc pan as well. It could be that the front of your engine is too low. I seem to remember that Hurst and others made spacers to go under the water pumps and raise the front of the engine. I know I used them.

[blucar]

Originally Posted by tubman

I put an 8BA in my '36 3-Window about 30 years ago and don't remember having to modify the drag link at all. I think I used a Merc pan as well. It could be that the front of your engine is too low. I seem to remember that Hurst and others made spacers to go under the water pumps and raise the front of the engine. I know I used them.

The common method to mount an 8BA type of engine in an early chassis, ie; '36-48 is to use '49-50 merc pumps and/or truck pumps with the '49-50 merc spacers under the pumps to allow for the offset of the mounting bolts and shortness of the pump mounts.
I would also suggest that you get a car pan in lieu of the truck pan you have.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by blucar

The common method to mount an 8BA type of engine in an early chassis, ie; '36-48 is to use '49-50 merc pumps and/or truck pumps with the '49-50 merc spacers under the pumps to allow for the offset of the mounting bolts and shortness of the pump mounts.
I would also suggest that you get a car pan in lieu of the truck pan you have.

[36cabrioletfrank]

Status update

1. I have replaced my worn out motor mounts with new ones. This has raised my engine.
2. Ray Jr at Helgers in RI found me a 49 merc oil pan. The sump on it is about 1.5" shorter than my present truck oil pan providing clearance for my drag link. Thanks Ray!
3. I got lucky and bought a nice 49 merc oil pickup on ebay at a reasonable price and a straight drag link and gaskets from vanpelt
4. Looks like this is going to work and I'm planning to do the install after Thanksgiving.

SOME QUESTIONS

WILL MY STOCK OIL PUMP MATCH UP OK WITH THE MERC OIL PICKUP?

AFTER I CONNECT THE OIL PICKUP, WILL IT BE IN THE PROPER POSITION TO SIT ON THE SHELF PROVIDED IN THE MERC OIL PAN WHEN I RAISE THE PAN INTO POSITION?

ANY OTHER TRICKS OR ADVICE ON THIS INSTALL?

THANKS TO ALL ONTHE BARN FOR YOUR HELP AND ADVICE! I'LL TRY TO TAKE SOME PICS DURING THE INSTALL AND POST THEM AFTER COMPLETION

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by 36cabrioletfrank

WILL MY STOCK OIL PUMP MATCH UP OK WITH THE MERC OIL PICKUP?

AFTER I CONNECT THE OIL PICKUP, WILL IT BE IN THE PROPER POSITION TO SIT ON THE SHELF PROVIDED IN THE MERC OIL PAN WHEN I RAISE THE PAN INTO POSITION?

Shown BELOW is the strange pickup designed to fit into the tray in the Merc pan. Feel fortunate that you found one reasonably as they normally list between $300 - $500 WHEN you can find one.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by blucar

The common method to mount an 8BA type of engine in an early chassis, ie; '36-48 is to use '49-50 merc pumps and/or truck pumps with the '49-50 merc spacers under the pumps to allow for the offset of the mounting bolts and shortness of the pump mounts.
I would also suggest that you get a car pan in lieu of the truck pan you have.

Boy, I seem to remember that the mounting height of the pads on the late Merc pumps are different than the truck pumps (higher in relation to the vehicle). I know because my test stand has the analogs of the '40-'48 Ford mounting geometry (I have used it to test a truck-pumped 8BA, as well as an Olds and a Hemi with Hurst mounts). When I went to mount the '51 Merc that eventually ended up in my '51 Ford, I had to make the spacers I mentioned ealier to bring it up to the correct height (it had the Merc pumps).

Also, why wouldn't the truck pan work? I have one and it seems to be the same outline as the Merc pan. I know the "cleanout" is prone to leaks, but given the rarity and price of Merc pans (per Coop), I'd use it if it fit.

It might be a good idea for the O/P to sight through the crank hole in the grille and see just where the crank bolt head is in relation to it. In the alternative, stick a dowel or welding rod through the hole and see where it ends up.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by tubman

Boy, I seem to remember that the mounting height of the pads on the late Merc pumps are different than the truck pumps (higher in relation to the vehicle). I know because my test stand has the analogs of the '40-'48 Ford mounting geometry (I have used it to test a truck-pumped 8BA, as well as an Olds and a Hemi with Hurst mounts). When I went to mount the '51 Merc that eventually ended up in my '51 Ford, I had to make the spacers I mentioned ealier to bring it up to the correct height (it had the Merc pumps).

Also, why wouldn't the truck pan work? I have one and it seems to be the same outline as the Merc pan. I know the "cleanout" is prone to leaks, but given the rarity and price of Merc pans (per Coop), I'd use it if it fit.

It might be a good idea for the O/P to sight through the crank hole in the grille and see just where the crank bolt head is in relation to it. In the alternative, stick a dowel or welding rod through the hole and see where it ends up.

I believe you're correct on the pump mounting heights. I have both and a set of spacers to compare.



Terry

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by 36cabrioletfrank

This is my first post - 36 Cabriolet with an 8BA engine and 1937 steering box. See attached pictures.

I think my oil pan is from an 8BA truck engine. Can anyone verify this from the pics below?

My drag link has been modified to clear my oil pan. When I hit a bump in the road, it clanks pretty loudly. If it breaks, it's a serious safety issue. I would like to find an oil pan that would allow me to install a straight, unmodified drag link. Is that possible? Will an oil pan from a passenger car 8BA, 59AB, or earlier flathead engine solve my problem?

I think the early flathead engines had a road breather opening in the oil pan. If I found one of those and welded the breather shut would that work?

Will any non-8BA oil pan accommodate my existing oil pump and pickup?

Thanks for your thoughts and advice.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 36cabrioletfrank

This is my first post - 36 Cabriolet with an 8BA engine and 1937 steering box. See attached pictures.

I think my oil pan is from an 8BA truck engine. Can anyone verify this from the pics below?

My drag link has been modified to clear my oil pan. When I hit a bump in the road, it clanks pretty loudly. If it breaks, it's a serious safety issue. I would like to find an oil pan that would allow me to install a straight, unmodified drag link. Is that possible? Will an oil pan from a passenger car 8BA, 59AB, or earlier flathead engine solve my problem?

I think the early flathead engines had a road breather opening in the oil pan. If I found one of those and welded the breather shut would that work?

Will any non-8BA oil pan accommodate my existing oil pump and pickup?

First off, an early (pre-1949) oil pan will not fit an 8BA engine because of the added REAR portion which is designed to affix the early ('32 - '48) transmissions to. And, your particular problem of the drag link interfering with the front portion of the sump is not unheard of. Some '36s with 8BA have no problem with the drag link clearance at pan, while other DO. I have researched this random problem over the last few years and can only come to the conclusion that it likely depends on how high or low the 8BA engine is mounted at the front crossmember mounting points. This particular '36 3-W coupe equipped with an 8BA, and which also runs the same pick-up oil pan as you do has no problem with the drag link clearing the pan. In fact, this particular '36 even has a later '40 steering box (same as your '37) ..... see picture BELOW.





The only real solution that I have seen for this problem is the welded-in piece seen in this identical oil pan BELOW, belonging to someone that obviously had a similar problem. That's all the help I can provide.

Coop

[42merc]

The best fix is a 49-50 Mercury pan & pickup.
It works!

[36cabrioletfrank]

Thanks for the quick replies of info and advice. I will look at shimming my front motor mounts first. I think my motor is slanted down in the front right now. If that doesn't do it I'll try to find the merc 49-50 pan and pickup next. Last step will be to modify the pan as suggested. I'll be back with an update of what worked for me. Thanks again Ford Barn Men.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by 36cabrioletfrank

Thanks for the quick replies of info and advice. I will look at shimming my front motor mounts first. I think my motor is slanted down in the front right now. If that doesn't do it I'll try to find the merc 49-50 pan and pickup next. Last step will be to modify the pan as suggested. I'll be back with an update of what worked for me. Thanks again Ford Barn Men.

Frank ..... I would be cautious about your intention to source a '49-'50 Merc pan and pickup. I've considered the Merc parts as a possible cure for the problem, but without trying it on one of these problem cars myself to see if it does actually rectify the problem, I MYSELF wouldn't guarantee the Merc parts as an absolute solution. I mention this as you will soon learn that the Merc pans are pretty damned rare now-a-days, but the corresponding pickups are harder to find than hens' teeth and will shock you when you see the price tags on them. When they do appear on "the 'Bay", they are usually priced in the $400 range or higher. I believe I'd be modifying the front of the sump on your existing pan.

Coop

Here are pics of the Merc pan and pickup BELOW!








https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attac...9&d=1596650441

[tubman]

All Hurst motor mounts were made to work with '41-'48 Ford frames. To use them in other frames (earlier or later Ford and even Chevrolets), they supplied frame adapters that made the other frames an analog of the '41-'48 units. The frame adapters for '35-'40 were spacers that raised the engine significantly. If you are using later Ford truck pumps, your engine is sitting too low; if you are using late Mercury pumps (they fit and have similar mounting ears), it is sitting waaaay to low. Find out what you have for water pumps and I can give you some advice.

I'll see if I can find and post the Hurst mount information.

EDIT : All I could find in a hurry is this catalog page. Unfortunately, it has been truncated. However if you look in the top right hand corner, you will see the adapters needed to make a '35-'40 frame look like a '41-48. Since an 8BA with truck pumps fit the '41-'48 frame, you will need these spacers or something similar (I made mine out of 2" square tube). Whoever did that nice fabrication on that oil pan Coop shows should have done his homework first.


BTW, the large "cleanout" in your pan inducates a late truck pan. It should work fine if you can get the engine where it belongs.

[tubman]

Coop, I gotta ask; did you read my post? Everybody is complicating what is quite simply an easy fix.

He even says he "thinks his motor is slanted down". You know that ain't right.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by tubman

Coop, I gotta ask; did you read my post? Everybody is complicating what is quite simply an easy fix.

Denny ...... I read your post, but I've gotta ask - Is that Hurst stuff even still available today? That ad looks like it came straight out of a 1962 Hot Rod Magazine.

Coop

.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Denny ...... I read your post, but I've gotta ask - Is that Hurst stuff even still available today? That ad looks like it came straight out of a 1962 Hot Rod Magazine.

Coop

.

The actual Hurst stuff is inconsequential. I posted it to show that the Hurst engineers were aware that the engine mounting geometry is DIFFERENT between '35-'40 and '41-'48 Fords. The earlier cars mount the front mounts a couple of inches lower than the later cars. Hot rodders, when changing engines between different series of cars should be aware of it too.

[Flathead Fever]

What about using the late Mercury motor mount spacers to raise it up.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Flathead Fever

What about using the late Mercury motor mount spacers to raise it up.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by Flathead Fever

What about using the late Mercury motor mount spacers to raise it up.

They might work, although they look a little short. They resemble the '35-'40 spacers originally offered by Hurst. I think that these days, they might be hard to source. As I alluded to earlier, I made my own out of 2" square tubing. I have them somewhere in my shop; if anyone is interested, I can dig them out and post a picture.

Remember, there is always a chance that late model Merc water pumps were used. If so, the mounting pad is even higher and even higher spacers are needed.