59 block oil relief plunger install

[joel]

I am using the 8ba helical gear oil pump with the 50 psi relief spring and the original block relief plunger has a flat on it that appears to allow "leakage" into the cam gear compartment. I also have a new plunger and spring and this plunger does not have the flat on it . Which should I use? I have a picture of the original plunger.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by joel

I am using the 8ba helical gear oil pump with the 50 psi relief spring and the original block relief plunger has a flat on it that appears to allow "leakage" into the cam gear compartment. I also have a new plunger and spring and this plunger does not have the flat on it . Which should I use? I have a picture of the original plunger.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by joel

I am using the 8ba helical gear oil pump with the 50 psi relief spring and the original block relief plunger has a flat on it that appears to allow "leakage" into the cam gear compartment. I also have a new plunger and spring and this plunger does not have the flat on it . Which should I use? I have a picture of the original plunger.

The one with the flat spot.

[joel]

Thanks, Kube for the reply. Is there any reason to increase the spring on the block relief? That would make the system more like the 8ba design.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by joel

Thanks, Kube for the reply. Is there any reason to increase the spring on the block relief? That would make the system more like the 8ba design.

If you increase the spring pressure, you will increase the oil pressure. I am not certain why increasing the oil pressure is necessary.

[joel]

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I was thinking that with the 8ba pump and it's relief valve set at 50# that there might be some kind of interaction between the two systems. If that's not an issue, ok. Thanks for replying.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by joel

I was thinking that with the 8ba pump and it's relief valve set at 50# that there might be some kind of interaction between the two systems. If that's not an issue, ok. Thanks for replying.

Okay, NOW I believe I understand. You are replacing the oil pump with the type that has the integral relief valve. Correct?
If so, you will want to increase the spring pressure on the valve beneath the valve chamber cover. Use the ball with the flat but increase the spring pressure.

[Mac VP]

Originally Posted by Kube

Okay, NOW I believe I understand. You are replacing the oil pump with the type that has the integral relief valve. Correct?
If so, you will want to increase the spring pressure on the valve beneath the valve chamber cover. Use the ball with the flat but increase the spring pressure.

That’s if he wants the entire system to operate at the 80psi setting of the 8BA oil pump. If he puts the 50 psi spring in the block pressure relief, the entire system will live at 50 psi. The oil will always seek the easiest way out of the closed system.

Operating the oil pressure system at the higher (80) pressure on a pre 1941 block (using the crankshaft slingers at the rear main instead of the rope seal design) may result in some oil leakage out past the rear main bearing. I’d love to hear from any builders out there who did a non-rope block with the 80 psi system and can offer any first hand experience with the issue.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Mac VP

That’s if he wants the entire system to operate at the 80psi setting of the 8BA oil pump. If he puts the 50 psi spring in the block pressure relief, the entire system will live at 50 psi. The oil will always seek the easiest way out of the closed system.

Operating the oil pressure system at the higher (80) pressure on a pre 1941 block (using the crankshaft slingers at the rear main instead of the rope seal design) may result in some oil leakage out past the rear main bearing. I’d love to hear from any builders out there who did a non-rope block with the 80 psi system and can offer any first hand experience with the issue.

I'm against high-pressure pumps as I'd never seen the need. I tend to believe guys use them to mask an issue or use them for an issue they imagine that doesn't really exist.

[Bored&Stroked]

One thing I was pondering (for some strange reason) is that the pressure relief in the pump circulates the oil back into the pump (I believe), which is a great way to heat up the oil.

Now that I'm pondering this, I think I'd rather have the oil go back to the sump (via the front pressure relief spring/plunger) and give it a chance to cool a bit more - and not circulate in the pump.

Just out here in the frozen West - pondering dumb crap like this! LOL

[cmbrucew]

Why not use the 50# pump that comes with the engine and works with the pressure guage in the dash.


Bruce

[Mac VP]

[QUOTE=cmbrucew;2203593]Why not use the 50# pump that comes with the engine and works with the pressure guage in the dash.


That too!

[38 coupe]

Originally Posted by cmbrucew

Why not use the 50# pump that comes with the engine and works with the pressure guage in the dash.

Bruce

My memory is the post-war 59 motor used 80 lb pumps, just long body versions without internal pressure relief valves.


edit, looked in the Green Book for clarification and came back with both verification of 80 lb pressure post war and more questions.

1. The section on sending units shows 50 psi sending unit pre-war and 80 psi sending units post-war. This part is clear, post-war Fords were designed to use 80 psi max systems.
2. The section on oil pumps agrees with the above post-war pressure change and leaves me with questions.

• There are two 59A part number oil pumps, 59A 6600 A1 and 59A 6600 A2.
• There is a note associated with 59A 6600 A1 pumps that "When replacing 18-6600, 48-6600, 68-6600 also use 1 of each 41A-6654 Spring (oil relief valve) in cylinder block and 41A-9278. Also use 41C-9273 when higher pressure readings are necessary." This instructs the user to swap the in-block pressure relief spring an oil pressure sending unit when installing the newer design oil pump.
• The 59A 6600-A2 pump is the one that raises questions for me. This pump is stated to have helical gears. I assumed that this was a long body pump with helical gears. However, I find part number 8BA 6654 listed with the description "Spring (oil pump body relief valve)-use with 59A-6600-A2".

My question: is the 59A 6600-A2 pump a long body pump or an 8BA style pump with internal bypass?

[joel]

Originally Posted by cmbrucew

Why not use the 50# pump that comes with the engine and works with the pressure guage in the dash.


Bruce

This is the pump that came with the engine. The engine was rebuilt in the 60s and installed in a car, but was never fired. I took it apart to clean and inspect it. The oil was like cosmoline.

[joel]

Originally Posted by Kube

I'm against high-pressure pumps as I'd never seen the need. I tend to believe guys use them to mask an issue or use them for an issue they imagine that doesn't really exist.

That's what I was thinking, and I researched the green book, but couldn't verify if this pump was 50# or 80#. It sounded like the 6600 A1 or A2 were 50# but could be 80# by changing the spring.

[joel]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

One thing I was pondering (for some strange reason) is that the pressure relief in the pump circulates the oil back into the pump (I believe), which is a great way to heat up the oil.

Now that I'm pondering this, I think I'd rather have the oil go back to the sump (via the front pressure relief spring/plunger) and give it a chance to cool a bit more - and not circulate in the pump.

Just out here in the frozen West - pondering dumb crap like this! LOL

My worry was/is if the block relief lifts, does it cause a momentary loss/reduction in oil supply to the front cam bearing and thus the front main bearing.

[joel]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

My memory is the post-war 59 motor used 80 lb pumps, just long body versions without internal pressure relief valves.


edit, looked in the Green Book for clarification and came back with both verification of 80 lb pressure post war and more questions.

1. The section on sending units shows 50 psi sending unit pre-war and 80 psi sending units post-war. This part is clear, post-war Fords were designed to use 80 psi max systems.
2. The section on oil pumps agrees with the above post-war pressure change and leaves me with questions.

• There are two 59A part number oil pumps, 59A 6600 A1 and 59A 6600 A2.
• There is a note associated with 59A 6600 A1 pumps that "When replacing 18-6600, 48-6600, 68-6600 also use 1 of each 41A-6654 Spring (oil relief valve) in cylinder block and 41A-9278. Also use 41C-9273 when higher pressure readings are necessary." This instructs the user to swap the in-block pressure relief spring an oil pressure sending unit when installing the newer design oil pump.
• The 59A 6600-A2 pump is the one that raises questions for me. This pump is stated to have helical gears. I assumed that this was a long body pump with helical gears. However, I find part number 8BA 6654 listed with the description "Spring (oil pump body relief valve)-use with 59A-6600-A2".

My question: is the 59A 6600-A2 pump a long body pump or an 8BA style pump with internal bypass?

On page 279 of Green book it shows 59A6600 A1 with the same relief spring in block relief as it does for the 59A-6600-A2 pump only the spring p/n is 8BA 6654.
This is why I think the helical gear pump also has a 50# relief spring.

[joel]

I seriously want to thank everyone for their replies . I think Kube's advice is what i'm going to do. I plan on cranking the engine over with the plugs out before I install it, so I'll know then if I have to pull the pan and change the pump spring. Thanks again

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by joel

My worry was/is if the block relief lifts, does it cause a momentary loss/reduction in oil supply to the front cam bearing and thus the front main bearing.

If that was an issue, there would be a bunch of burnt front cam/main bearings in these engines - from the mid 30's all the way to 1948 . . . have never seen an issue myself.

[Mart]

If the plunger in the oil relief valve lifts, the cam gear chamber area still gets oil. It gets it all the time. The flat ensures a supply of oil even when the valve is closed.