Valve Seat inserts

[8EL]

Does anyone have anyone with experience with valve seats inserts care to share their preferences? I have not installed any for years, I remember using Chromalloy "Valve Seat Rings" manufactured by the K.O. Lee Company.

I would expect they are out of business now. I see that Martin Wells markets a W-505 heavy duty valve seat for the little Ford engine. This number also crosses with TRW and Fedaral/Mogul, so they are available.....

What are your preferences of manufacture? the best service life I would guess to be high on the selection list. I don't mind paying a little more for the better part if it will last a long time.....

[8EL]

No takers???

[Pete]

I have fixed a couple in the last 30 years.
One in a flathead street engine. The hole was badly crashed and needed a special size so we made one from 4130 tubing. No big deal.
The other was in one of Kenny Bernstien's top fuel heads. Got him going so he made the program the next day.

[Joe K]

Back in the 70's and 80s, valve seat replacement was RECOMMENDED during an engine rebuild. Many put it to "necessary for using modern gasolines" but in reality I suspect that reason was generated simply to sell valve seats. Modern gasoline is MORE resistant to knocking than even the fuels of the 30s was.

However, the real reason for valve seats may have been finding and a repair for nascent valve seat cracks - and re-establishing valve height in a seat which may have been ground "deep." A new seat finds and cures all of that - automatically.

If I were having an engine rebuilt - I would trust to whomever was doing it. If you're doing it yourself (and it sounds like you are) then its your choice and you deal with the result whatever.

Seating DOES get you an opportunity to "get familiar" with your block - and you go away without any questions with the possible exception of the seats staying in place.

One of the reasons I keep now (ahem) three "spare" engine blocks is you never know going into a rebuild whether the block of choice is uncracked. Cracks can be fatal but if you have a choice to rebuild an uncracked block or trying to "mend" a block - which do you choose?

Joe K

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Joe K

Back in the 70's and 80s, valve seat replacement was RECOMMENDED during an engine rebuild. Many put it to "necessary for using modern gasolines" but in reality I suspect that reason was generated simply to sell valve seats. Modern gasoline is MORE resistant to knocking than even the fuels of the 30s was.

However, the real reason for valve seats may have been finding and a repair for nascent valve seat cracks - and re-establishing valve height in a seat which may have been ground "deep." A new seat finds and cures all of that - automatically.

If I were having an engine rebuilt - I would trust to whomever was doing it. If you're doing it yourself (and it sounds like you are) then its your choice and you deal with the result whatever.

Seating DOES get you an opportunity to "get familiar" with your block - and you go away without any questions with the possible exception of the seats staying in place.

One of the reasons I keep now (ahem) three "spare" engine blocks is you never know going into a rebuild whether the block of choice is uncracked. Cracks can be fatal but if you have a choice to rebuild an uncracked block or trying to "mend" a block - which do you choose?

Joe K

Joe,
I was looking for machinist's recommendations of current production seats they are using. Like you mention the evolution of technologies is considerable, I am relatively sure that better alloys have been developed since I have done this last and I was hoping to get a jump on what is currently best. Yes, I do all or very near to all of my on machine work. Crank grinding, some cylinder boring, (jugs, singles, or twins I do my self) I have to farm out.

In 1971 the compression ratios of the big three's production offerings was cut drastically and the phase out of anti-knock compounds began. Namely Tetraethyllead (Pb4) abbreviated TEL. Along with its ability (TEL) to support normal combustion in high compression engines by preventing detonation, allowing them to produce more power, it was also acted as a upper cylinder and valve train lubricant.Modern engines designed to run on "Unleaded" fuels had much harder valve seats and valves.

Modern gasoline is not more resistant to development of detonation. The research derived octane number (R+M)/2, indicates a fuels suitability to prevent detonation. Higher numbers indicate greater ability to sustain greater combustion chamber pressures and in so doing normal combustion. The highest octane ratings found on pump gasoline in my area is 93 on the premium fuels. I can recall a day where Ethyl pump gas was 98 octane on average, and Sunoco had their "Blend-O-Matic" or as others called it "Dial-An-Octane" 200-260 registers. As I recall (don't quote me, this was a long time ago) 200 was regular and 260 was the super premium. What one of us Eisenhower babies does not remember "Sunoco 260"? Or how about Purple Martin's 110 octane Ethyl, I remember how it looked like grape juice in the fuel pump sediment bowl. Sinclair's "Sky Chief" Ethyl was also purple (Fire Chief was red) as was aviation fuel of the day. Those were the days, but sorry for the digression, please excuse this old man for ranting.

I like you would be collecting old blocks and other related parts, not for fear of destroying them in the machining process, but rather because they are old and are only going to become harder to find. Yes, if I had my choice of the cracked block/head or one the did not have this malady, of course I would be using the latter...

So help me out here fellas, who is making the best valve seat inserts these days?

[johnneilson]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Tucker valve seats in Texas.

You do not need anything such as beryllium seats or Ti or inconel valves in the block.

Yes, I have used all 3 of these in attempts to keep the valve train under control at 7k revs.

In fact, I made a seat from 1144 stressproof stl in a pinch not expecting it to survive but it has done great, just have to remember to easy on it with the stones.

As Pete says, 4130 works great too.

John

[8EL]

Originally Posted by johnneilson

Tucker valve seats in Texas.

You do not need anything such as beryllium seats or Ti or inconel valves in the block.

Yes, I have used all 3 of these in attempts to keep the valve train under control at 7k revs.

In fact, I made a seat from 1144 stressproof stl in a pinch not expecting it to survive but it has done great, just have to remember to easy on it with the stones.

As Pete says, 4130 works great too.

John

Thanks John, just downloaded their online catalog.......

[ModelA29]

Originally Posted by Joe K

..... Many put it to "necessary for using modern gasolines" but in reality I suspect that reason was generated simply to sell valve seats. Modern gasoline is MORE resistant to knocking than even the fuels of the 30s was.

The switch was made to hardened seats to reduce the wear. Leaded gas lubricated the valve/seat interface and reduced wear. With a hard seat the easily replaced valve gets the wear not the seat.



https://www.avweb.com/multimedia/wha...ash-my-valves/

[Benson]

a bit of trivia:

In 1967 to 1970 when I was on EAST coast, Sunoco 190 was lowest octane.

[8EL]

Even then the tree huggers were at it I guess....

[CarlG]

My only experience with valve seats: I had one come loose 600 miles from home. This was on an engine that had been built by a "reliable" builder in Southern California and only had about 3,000 miles since rebuild. (Not the only problem with that engine.)

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by CarlG

My only experience with valve seats: I had one come loose 600 miles from home. This was on an engine that had been built by a "reliable" builder in Southern California and only had about 3,000 miles since rebuild. (Not the only problem with that engine.)

My comment, for what it's worth, concerns both a rebuilt engine from a similar builder AND valve seats. First the valve seats. My opinion on what went wrong is that the builder ordered hardened seats that were too big and when they arrived, he fitted them to the block without checking them. Whether he realised what he had done when he came to assemble the engine or not, I don't know but it's hard to believe he didn't. When he installed the valves (standard Model A valves), they almost fell through the seats. They only seated at the extreme outside 1-2 mm. The engine could not be made to idle well (no wonder) and was noisy. The fact that within a few hundred miles, the bearings started to fall apart didn't help. The lady owner was on the ball enough to hear things going wrong in there so removed the engine and took it to another guy I recommended. He made new valves to suit, redid the bearings and a few other "little" things. The original builder has "retired".
My take away from her experience is that "improvements" sometimes are OK, other times .......... I have hard seats on only one of my six running engines ( a Burtz engine).

[8EL]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

My comment, for what it's worth, concerns both a rebuilt engine from a similar builder AND valve seats. First the valve seats. My opinion on what went wrong is that the builder ordered hardened seats that were too big and when they arrived, he fitted them to the block without checking them. Whether he realised what he had done when he came to assemble the engine or not, I don't know but it's hard to believe he didn't. When he installed the valves (standard Model A valves), they almost fell through the seats. They only seated at the extreme outside 1-2 mm. The engine could not be made to idle well (no wonder) and was noisy. The fact that within a few hundred miles, the bearings started to fall apart didn't help. The lady owner was on the ball enough to hear things going wrong in there so removed the engine and took it to another guy I recommended. He made new valves to suit, redid the bearings and a few other "little" things. The original builder has "retired".
My take away from her experience is that "improvements" sometimes are OK, other times .......... I have hard seats on only one of my six running engines ( a Burtz engine).

Probably the most important thing next to cleanliness and proper component selection is maintaining tolerances. You measure and when you think it is right, you measure just once more..... Any machinist or engine builder worth noting knows this and adheres to this.

I would not infer that the valve seats were in any way the problem here, rather the mechanic rebuilding this engine was. Provided this engine had proper lubrication, bearings and "other things" do not just fail on their own either.....do they?

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 8EL

Probably the most important thing next to cleanliness and proper component selection is maintaining tolerances. You measure and when you think it is right, you measure just once more..... Any machinist or engine builder worth noting knows this and adheres to this.

I would not infer that the valve seats were in any way the problem here, rather the mechanic rebuilding this engine was. Provided this engine had proper lubrication, bearings and "other things" do not just fail on their own either.....do they?

Exactly so. His work was very poor throughout IMO.

[KR500]

I use a K.O. Lee valve seat cutter on Model A engines. I check the finished diameters and use the stainless seats sold by Brattons or Snyders. The valve seats come in about .005 oversize to what my K.O. Lee cutter finishes at so I polish the seats for a .003 diameter press fit. Throw them in the cup with ice and pound them in. I set my cutter to cut .005-.010 deeper than block and can then face the top of block if desired .

[8EL]

I have a Sioux valve seat ring cutter that I have not used for years, along with the valve seat grinder. As I recall you could buy different cutters, standard and over-sized from the stated nominal size. I have not looked to see if they are still available or if Sioux is even still in business. Makes you feel old when you out lived the life of your tools.....

Anyway how close do you think you are coming to the water jacket in the block going .010" deeper than the insert thickness? Does anyone know how much room we have here to the water.....Hate to find out the hard way, maybe someone else has??? Probably plenty of room but that nagging little question always arises anyway.......

[8EL]

Originally Posted by 8EL

I have a Sioux valve seat ring cutter that I have not used for years, along with the valve seat grinder. As I recall you could buy different cutters, standard and over-sized from the stated nominal size. I have not looked to see if they are still available or if Sioux is even still in business. Makes you feel old when you out lived the life of your tools.....

Anyway how close do you think you are coming to the water jacket in the block going .010" deeper than the insert thickness? Does anyone know how much room we have here to the water.....Hate to find out the hard way, maybe someone else has??? Probably plenty of room but that nagging little question always arises anyway.......

Forgot to mention I used to use liquid Nitrogen (boils of at -320 DegF at sea level) to chill the inserts and they would drop in mostly on their own. Liquid carbon dioxide would probably work and is not as cold about -80 DegF so is a little safer to handle.....But either one will immediately cause frost bite or freeze your eyeball....wear a face shield Bubba.....

[KR500]

I do know from watching T blocks fitted with valve inserts that they can come close to hitting the intake and exhaust ports so it is recommended that you reduce the thickness on the inserts you might use in a T block.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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