Next Issue-Steering

[rmak]

I am slowly solving engine problems and taking my car out for quick test rides.

The best way to describe the steering is that it's like a sailboat. It tacks to one side, almost going into the ditch and then when I compensate it starts going into the other lane.

I've been in contact with the guy who advertizes here, Mel, and the guy from nearby Cleveland with EZ steering. Costs are $675 and $800 respectively. Both say that my steering problem is the norm and I will spend near that for worms, bearing, races, etc. and still have crappy steering.

I realize some of this is a sales pitch, but I picked up a used box and disassembled it to examine the parts. When I began pricing out these separate parts it did start to add up.

What are the recommendations for the Barn? I am modifying a my car a little to suit my taste so I'm not concerned about museum quality parts matching.

[Arlyn Bieber]

There is more to "good" steering than just the steering box. Are your steering balls on the steering arms worn? Is the axle straight or is in bent? Is the toe-in set correctly? What about the king-pin bushings and the wheel bearings? Do you have a bent spindle or a bent rim? If all these items are not correctly restored, it makes no difference which steering box you install. I personally have not been impressed with these "new modern" steering boxes. Stick with the old proven original design. When all components of the original steering system are restored the Model A steers very well. Now I admit the old 7 tooth system presents other challenges but the newer 2 tooth Gemmer works extremely well. Restore the original and you won't be disappointed and you will have money left over to fix other items. Just my thoughts and experience.

[willobs]

I have been wondering the same, considered changing my 7-tooth for a 2-tooth have .went to shortened pitman arm which helped some thanks

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Every single component of the steering system needs to be restored to original specifications in order for the steering to work properly. While its true that one failed component can cause the trouble and addressing only one component can solve the problem if its correctly diagnosed, it rarely makes much of a difference because its more commonly a combination of problems. In the case of lurching as you describe, the radius ball is a common culprit. If its worn beyond the original 1 1/2 inch diameter or had been replaced by the rubber ball which is now rotten or missing, the steering will do as you describe. But loose tie rod ends, or broken springs within them will do so as well. It will be aggravated by toe out. I've seen as much as an inch of toe out on cars before, which wreaked havoc with steering control. Add a loose worm gear to that and you're really in trouble. Then there is the commonly loose steering box and or pittman arm which contributes to low speed shimmy, or bent axles which make toe in adjustment impossible and also create lurching... I can go on and on. What you need to do is inspect every single point of the steering geometry and insure it meets the original Ford design. Such a thorough inspection often requires removing the front clip and steering column. Its a big job, but ultimately very rewarding as a proper Model A steers very easily.

[rmak]

I'm trying to remember my old days in my dad's shop, but is there a way to adjust the the caster (sp?) Isn't that the adjustment that brings the wheels back straight and true? I can believe the toe in (Isn't that pigeon toed front wheels?) is wrong on my buggy.

I appreciate the advice. The wheel actually turns easily and freely. The big issues are the aforementioed tacking and excessive play.

Is there a step by step check where one could eliminate issues in a systematic way and go on, or do you just start anywhere?

I have a gemmer box. At least that what it says on the side.

[Bob from Northport]

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Get a friend to assist you. Lay down in front of the car, and have your friend turn the steering wheel, while watching each component to the steering for movement before the tires actually move. You can see movement in the tie rod ends or the drag ling or pitman arm (each has a ball inside it) if there is excessive wear on each part. Caster can not be adjusted without considerable expense. Toe in of 1/32 to 1/16" is the correct setting, meaning the front tires in the front are each pointed in a VERY small amount toward each other. One you have checked the entire front end, then go the the steering box for final results. There should be no wander when you are driving.

Bob's Model A Ford Garage

[Pilotdave]

Agree with the "check everything" approach above. One point not mentioned: tires. We recently replaced the tires on our Tudor and noticed considerable reduction in its previous tendency to wander and/or dive for the side of the road at random moments. I had also gone through all the steering box adjustments, replaced all the balls, replaced the tie rod (bent) and reset toe-in. New tires made more difference than all of the above in our case.

[rollingsculpture]

i noticed that everyone is saying to check all the other components but did you already make the adjustments to the steering box? seems like it may have too much play in the first place . i would get that piece sorted out , than go down the list on the other stuff .

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by rollingsculpture

i noticed that everyone is saying to check all the other components but did you already make the adjustments to the steering box? seems like it may have too much play in the first place . i would get that piece sorted out , than go down the list on the other stuff .

Exactly, ...RMAK start at the steering gearbox and work your way to the wheels. A loose pitman arm can be the culprit --or worn sector busings. Just so we are clear though, whomever told you that after a rebuild you will have "crappy steering" is putting a sales pitch on you IMHO. Before you start to make any repairs on anything, you need to determine in your own mind what you are comfortable with. Are you wanting an original-styled Model A, --or are you ok with making modifications taking away from the authenticity? Either way is fine with most of us however do not let someone convince you that you need to modify(modernize) this component solely because of safety issues with the original-type steering gearboxes.

/

[kp]

Bad or no shocks at all contribute to this ?

[rmak]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Exactly, ...RMAK start at the steering gearbox and work your way to the wheels. A loose pitman arm can be the culprit --or worn sector busings. Just so we are clear though, whomever told you that after a rebuild you will have "crappy steering" is putting a sales pitch on you IMHO. Before you start to make any repairs on anything, you need to determine in your own mind what you are comfortable with. Are you wanting an original-styled Model A, --or are you ok with making modifications taking away from the authenticity? Either way is fine with most of us however do not let someone convince you that you need to modify(modernize) this component solely because of safety issues with the original-type steering gearboxes.

Brent,
As I said in my original post (and other times), I am not making a museum piece. The car came to me in a non-stock state and I've no plans to re-create it again back to original. I want a fun car to work on and drive around. I also pointed out that I believed the bad rap on the original steering may have been a sales technique. However, I've heard about cantankerous stock Model A steering from quite a few other people, so I will continue to look at any option.
I do want good, safe steering. On the strength of the advice here I'll look at the functioning of all of the components and do my best to rectify any problems. I do have concerns about chasing good money after bad if I invest in all kinds of steering box components and I still can't steer the darned thing.
I guess we shall see.

[kenparker]

Got one of those new fangled ez steer boxes in the S/W and she still has 1 1/2 to 2 inches of free play and there is no adjustment on these boxes. I am running 16" radials on the car. All the steering components have been restored to factory specs. Yes, It is very much easier to turn the steering wheel, but, the free play is bothersome. ken

[Dennis/CT]

I had the same problem.I rebuilt my front end,king pins,tie rods,steering arms and radius ball holder,properly adjust the front wheel bearings and had the front end aligned.No more problems.Cost alot less than a new box.

[Special Coupe Frank]

My '28 drives acceptably with the OEM style Gemmer 2-tooth steering box.

I can go down the road w/o "tacking".

New or modern steering gears won't fix worn parts elswhere in the suspension.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by rmak

Brent,
As I said in my original post (and other times), I am not making a museum piece. The car came to me in a non-stock state and I've no plans to re-create it again back to original. I want a fun car to work on and drive around. I also pointed out that I believed the bad rap on the original steering may have been a sales technique. However, I've heard about cantankerous stock Model A steering from quite a few other people, so I will continue to look at any option.
I do want good, safe steering. On the strength of the advice here I'll look at the functioning of all of the components and do my best to rectify any problems. I do have concerns about chasing good money after bad if I invest in all kinds of steering box components and I still can't steer the darned thing.
I guess we shall see.

Again, re-read what I posted. I, --and many others DO NOT care which direction you go (original or aftermarket) but one of the reasons why I sometimes get chastized here is because I believe in telling the facts first (no matter how unpopular or brutal they may sound) and then intelligent men can make the educated decisions that is best for them. While a true statement could probably be made that people felt like they wasted money on rebuilding their original one, it sure seems like we have read here about problems with the aftermarket steering boxes too. My FWIW vote is for "good, safe steering" use a properly rebuilt original style steering unit that was designed and proven for your vehicle.

BTW is it possible the cantankerous steering phenomenon you speak of is probable because some folks doesn't know how to make the repairs properly so they fault the 'system' instead of faulting the true problem.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

you have not said how much play is in the steering wheel...Should be about 1-2 inches at the center. . Have your buddy watch the sector shaft and the pittman arm while you rock the steering wheel back and forth through the free play. There should be no movement between these two. Find how much steering wheel play you can have before the sector and pittman arm move at all. If it exceeds 1-2 inches, adjust the steering box. Then proceed to the next inspection point, the steering box bolts. A loose box usually causes the death wobble, not lurching, but check it anyway. Then look for loss of motion in the drag link, tie rod ends, excess play in the king pins and wheel bearings. Are the tie rod and drag link end plugs screwed in really far? Are the 4 center spring clip bolts tight? what does the radius ball and cup set look like? Tightening the tie rod ends will increase toe out if its not re-adjusted afterward. Its not uncommon for someone to tighten them to try to eliminate wander, only to aggravate it by increasing toe out. Perhaps the previous owner did that already. Instructions for adjusting a Gemmer 2 tooth box are in the Service Bulletins and Andrew's book.

[allen]

totally agree with Brent, its always the fault of the old steering and you always find someone who wants to sell you the next greatest thing. Before i list hundred things that could be wrong with your steering, lets get one thing straight, I have many cars the 31 two tooth model a is one of the best driving cars i ever drove tracks perfect and drives great. This thread reminds me of a car i bought it was a 55 Packard the tranny was shot the owner for over 30 years was told all Packard trannys were junk (same guy who tried to build it) long story short replace tranny with stock Packard , been running ever since. stick with the stock find the problem and enjoy a great car good luck AL

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by rmak

Brent,
The car came to me in a non-stock state and I've no plans to re-create it again back to original. .....

However, I've heard about cantankerous stock Model A steering from quite a few other people......

I do have concerns about chasing good money after bad if I invest in all kinds of steering box components and I still can't steer the darned thing.

If the car is non stock, odds are the steering has some sort of "improvement", like the rubber radius ball.

Cantankerous Model A steering tales come from decades of driving cars with worn or abused steering to the point people began to believe that was normal. A principle selling point of the original Model A was its easy steering. A well rebuilt system will steer easily for a non power steering system, that is when the wheels are rolling a bit. Compared to other cars of the day, the Model A steered very much more easily. I do prefer a shortened pittman arm and teflon tie rod end cups (with new spindle balls), to the originals. Replacing the steering box with a modern box will not solve problems arising from the rest of the steering system.

[rmak]

That is one heck of an informative post! Thanks to you and the others who gave me clear directions to go on. Much appreciate. I may have to come back begging for details.

Originally Posted by pat in Santa Cruz

you have not said how much play is in the steering wheel...Should be about 1-2 inches at the center. . Have your buddy watch the sector shaft and the pittman arm while you rock the steering wheel back and forth through the free play. There should be no movement between these two. Find how much steering wheel play you can have before the sector and pittman arm move at all. If it exceeds 1-2 inches, adjust the steering box. Then proceed to the next inspection point, the steering box bolts. A loose box usually causes the death wobble, not lurching, but check it anyway. Then look for loss of motion in the drag link, tie rod ends, excess play in the king pins and wheel bearings. Are the tie rod and drag link end plugs screwed in really far? Are the 4 center spring clip bolts tight? what does the radius ball and cup set look like? Tightening the tie rod ends will increase toe out if its re-adjusted afterward. Its not uncommon for someone to tighten them to try to eliminate wander, only to aggravate it by increasing toe out. Perhaps the previous owner did that already. Instructions for adjusting a Gemmer 2 tooth box are in the Service Bulletins and Andrew's book.

[1931 flamingo]

You don't have to beg, we're a friendly, helpful bunch.
paul in CT