Run a Model A on 100 percent ethanol

[Vic in E-TN]

A friend recently posed a question - does anyone have any information on running a Model A on 100 percent ethanol?

I did a search and came up with the usual 10 percent ethanol posts.

Vic

[63tango]

I dont think a Model A would like that. I don't think the fuel system is designed to run on that 10% is already bad enough for carbureted engines. The stuff is bad for rubber parts and I think it makes metal rust.

[SeaSlugs]

not many rubber parts on an A, Henry himself was toying with the idea anyways. Only rust is from water collecting but if you drive it enough it wont be an issue.

I know that old picture of 10% corn at a gasstation is around on the forum so its not new idea by any means.

i do know the gas gauge float will sink without the neoprene float on it.

I would be interested to see what you come up with Vic!

[Purdy Swoft]

Its terrible stuff but the A can run on straight alcohol. There was an article in the Model A news in the late seventies, not sure exactly what year, it would take time to hunt it up. I think that it was titled running the A on alcohol.They used an otwell manifold heater as a preheater connected to the carb. it had less power and wasn't fuel efficient. I would have to be desperate to consider it.

[Dave in Boise]

I have run my A on e85 before on a whim when I had a flex fuel truck.. I figured out if it did not like it, I could drain the tank into my flex-fuel vehicle, so no harm, no foul.

Well, it ran, but did not have nearly the power and I had to change the setting on my GAV quite a bit to get it to run better.. Ran a whole tankful through it with no ill effects

Build on the motor is .080 over, Touring Cam, High Compression head, and all the rest is bone stock with a zenith updraft.

- Dave

[Pete]

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Yes an A will run on straight ethanol or methanol, BUT, very poorly.
These fuels need very high compression, 12 to 14 to 1 to work right.
In a racing engine set up for gas, just changing to alcohol is good for 15% increase
in hp. In a stock model A you would probably lose that much or more.
Alcohols need to be flushed out of the complete fuel system after running.
Any left in the system will absorb water like a sponge besides being corrosive to certain metals and tubing materials.

[QGolden]

Henry built the early T to run on Ethanol. Everyone back then thought it was going to be the fuel standard.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by QGolden

Henry built the early T to run on Ethanol. Everyone back then thought it was going to be the fuel standard.

I've read the same thing. ! see no reason why the A would not run. (I did not say well.)

[steve s]

By the way, I don't believe it would be 100% ethanol in any event; normal distillation yields 95% ethanol/5% water. Also, a few percent of some unpalatable alcohol would be added to make it less drinkable--so-called "denatured" alcohol. Pure ethanol can be made, but expensive extra processing is required.

[MrTube]

Originally Posted by steve s

By the way, I don't believe it would be 100% ethanol in any event; normal distillation yields 95% ethanol/5% water. Also, a few percent of some unpalatable alcohol would be added to make it less drinkable--so-called "denatured" alcohol. Pure ethanol can be made, but expensive extra processing is required.

Sigma-Aldrich has "200 proof, anhydrous, ≥99.5% ethanol" for $100 a liter.

Expensive is an understatement.

[kelley's restoration]

the real problem is that it has less potential energy than gasoline
it takes something like 25 percent more fuel to achieve the same output
so it would need more compression and more fuel
tk

[Randy in Illinois]

Ethanol is very corrosive to engine components beside just o rings, gaskets. pistons also don't like the stuff in large ratios. I'm no chemist, but ethanol also has less heat energy than gasoline. so power extracted from ethanol will be less. 10% ethanol max. is good fuel back then and now. beat me to it Kelly, thanks for the info

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by Vic in E-TN

A friend recently posed a question - does anyone have any information on running a Model A on 100 percent ethanol?

I did a search and came up with the usual 10 percent ethanol posts.

Vic

I see from your profile you are in Maryville, Tn. Go over to 411 speedway some night and talk to those Modified guys about what they had to do to switch to methanol. As Pete pointed out, you need more compression and more fuel volume. Unless your racing, it doesnt make much sense. You didnt mention why you were interested in this? Its not going to be a back and forth deal, you either run gas or methanol/ethanol...either can be made to work.
You can even run the E85, with the proper setup, but if you get stuck somewhere you can t get it, you are going to have a bad time of it.
My advice for a street driver is to try to stick to non-ethanol regular gas.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Two guys that ran 85% crap gas had to have there engines rebuilt at 65,000 miles. As mentioned, the crap is corrosive to many metals.

[MALAK]

Originally Posted by kelley's restoration

the real problem is that it has less potential energy than gasoline
it takes something like 25 percent more fuel to achieve the same output
so it would need more compression and more fuel
tk

Ethanol has about 2/3 (66%) the BTU (energy) of gasoline and the fuel ratio is 9:1 vs 14.7 for gas. You'd have to re-jet the carb but without any other mods that 40Hp engine would now be about 26Hp. You'd need a serious increase in compression ratio to make up the difference. Add on top of that all the other things mentioned it doesn't seem worth it.

Nitro-methane on the other hand>>>HMMM.
Somehow I don't think a Model A engine would like that either.

[kelley's restoration]

Originally Posted by MALAK

Ethanol has about 2/3 (66%) the BTU (energy) of gasoline and the fuel ratio is 9:1 vs 14.7 for gas. You'd have to re-jet the carb but without any other mods that 40Hp engine would now be about 26Hp. You'd need a serious increase in compression ratio to make up the difference. Add on top of that all the other things mentioned it doesn't seem worth it.

Nitro-methane on the other hand>>>HMMM.
Somehow I don't think a Model A engine would like that either.

nice!!!!!!!!
first time ever that that has been mention on the ford barn
(i think they use nitro-propanal now though)
tk

[Randy in Illinois]

And 250 shot of nitris like the racers will give the 40 hp about 100+ hp instantly or give you alot of junks parts in a hurry!

[Pete]

Quote"[nice!!!!!!!!
first time ever that that has been mention on the ford barn
(i think they use nitro-propanal now though)"]Quote

Nitro propane will mix directly with gas. Nitromethane and nitroethane will not without catalysts.

[Vic in E-TN]

Thanks for all the input. I will send this to my friend who posed the question. Hopefully he will become a Ford Barn member. I suspect E-85 is what he meant to say. I know that if you distill a mix containing ethanol the best that you can get is 95 percent.

My experience with E-85 is going to Iola a few years ago in my friend's car that was flex fuel. It ran well but the MPG was no good. They sell a little of it around here for about the same price as regular. In IL and Wisconsin it was a lot cheaper a few years ago.

Thanks,
Vic

[marc hildebrant]

How do the Nitro products increase the power ?

Marc