New buy will need help from all of you

[Paperman]

Just bough my first pre 60's ride. 1938 4 door standard. Going to get it this weekend. Solid car from the pics and owners description on the phone. It needs an engine as it is without one right now. What years do I need to look for? I plan to make it an unrestored driver. I'll post pictures when I get them and I'm sure to ask more questions.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

If you want an original 38 engine it could be a 21 stud or 24stud or a 60hp. 38 had all 3. Walt

[TonyM]

Welcome and good luck with the car. Looking forward to the pics.

[Paperman]

Here are a few from the ad. Headed to get it this weekend.

[BABAR40]

Great to have you here! Your journey is starting, good luck.

[Paperman]

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Are there any catalogs or mail order places that stock any parts? Any manuals online or places I could buy one?

[TonyM]

Joe's Antique Auto
C&G Ford Parts
Drake's
JobLot
Mac's
Gaslight Auto
Kantner
Speedway
LeBaron Bonney

[TonyM]

You might want to buy the 1938-1939 Ford Book, published by the Early Ford V-8 Club of America (seen on the left in the photo).

[4dFord/SC]

Here's a good technical resource for all things flathead: http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm

[JM 35 Sedan]

Looks to be a pretty solid car to start with. A 59 series engine would be a good choice for a driver. Ask questions and keep us posted on your progress. Always good to have your approximate location included in your avatar. Wouldn't hurt to drop that picture of your '38 in your avatar either . Welcome to the Fordbarn.

[Mike in AZ]

welcome to the 'Barn....add Sacramento Vintage Ford to your list of catalogs....have fun....Mike

[Bruce in southern OH]

Great, have fun! Need to add location to your "Handle", that way we can help in providing sources of help, information and events, again have fun with car.

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by TonyM

Joe's Antique Auto
C&G Early Ford Parts
Drake's
JobLot
Mac's
Gaslight Auto
Kantner
Speedway
LeBaron Bonney

A few more:

Dennis Carpenter Early Ford Parts
Van Pelt Sales
Bubba's Hot Rod Shop (early Ford ignition)
Bill Hirsch

[flatford8]

IMO a restoration can get overwhelming. Alot of time,work and money. I like your plan. Make the brakes and suspension safe and dependable. A good running motor. The electrical system safe and reliable. Do the interior as much as makes you comfortable. Then drive the wheels off it!!!!!!........Mark from Maine.

[38Tudor]

Great car! Good luck!

[JSeery]

Love 38 standards! My only suggestion would be to ditch the headlight conversion it has on it. The original style (converted to seal beam) looks so much nicer. That looks like a really nice car.

[Tinker]

Cool car! Great year!

[RPM]

Welcome! Great car, enjoy! RPM

[Bassman/NZ]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Love 38 standards! My only suggestion would be to ditch the headlight conversion it has on it. The original style (converted to seal beam) looks so much nicer. That looks like a really nice car.

I agree.

[jimTN]

It is somewhat of a rare car, not because of how many were built but how many have survived. I would suggest you get ahold of Flathead Ted to see if he has brake floaters that work with a 38. If the brakes have not been changed to hyd then you need the floaters which IMHO are as good or better than hyd. Any 85 or 100 hp engine from 37 to 48 cars will work 48-53 truck and 49-53 car engines can be made to work with the right assortment of external parts.

[Paperman]

Originally Posted by flatford8

IMO a restoration can get overwhelming. Alot of time,work and money. I like your plan. Make the brakes and suspension safe and dependable. A good running motor. The electrical system safe and reliable. Do the interior as much as makes you comfortable. Then drive the wheels off it!!!!!!........Mark from Maine.

Yep I fell in that trap on some other projects thats why I wanted this car as it was as clean and complete as it is.

Can I get some more info on what you guys are talking about on the lights, a picture of the correct set would be nice. Also the brakes, I assume this is a cable set-up, what are "brake floaters" Ill start using the search button, thanks a bunch guys.

PS What is the best way to ask my list of questions here, keep them all in this thread or break them out into different subjects?

Robert Kesling
Ludington MI

[JSeery]

38 Ford original style headlight.

[Pat/Ohio]

Robert, Welcome to the 'Barn! You might consider visiting the Early Ford V-8 Club's website at www.efv8.org also. I would also consider joining the Early Ford V-8 Club of America. There is a Regional Group of the Early Ford V-8 Club in your area probably. These are great sources for information and help.

Good luck, Pat

[JM 35 Sedan]

I would suggest starting a project thread titled with what your project is or about, but keep that thread going with everything you do or need help with. So many here will make a new thread for each and everything they do on their project making it tough for others to understand whats been done vs. what needs to be done vs. what has been suggested/recommended by others. JMO

ps... the interior looks to be pretty much intact based on your last picture posted.

pss...most early Ford V8er's who love these old Fords will drool over that car way more than they would a high point totally restored show car.

[Paperman]

Thank you all for the help of the fledgling flathead lover. I hope to get this thing in shape to drive next year. I assuem cable brakes, do the cables run in free air like the rods did or are they in a covering of some sort?

[LOWRIDER]

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Nice car! Just picked up a 38 Deluxe 2dr myself last week. Mine is a 57k survivor car from Mn. Amazingly rust free for a car from a northern state. A few "battle scars" on the fenders but the black paint still has a shine to it. Seems to run, stop & steer good (in my yard at least) and looks good underneath on the hoist. First repairs is to replace the petrified wiring with the new looms that came with the car. My plans are similar to yours so I'll be watching for more posts about your car.

[Seth Swoboda]

Nice car. Welcome to the fordbarn. Join the Early Ford V8 Club like others have mentioned. I also like your plan. Clean it up, go through the mechanicals and you should be set. If you need original ford parts visit the swap meet page here on the barn. You will find about everything you could need there. You will find guys here that are excellent carb rebuilders and ignition specialists. Keep us up to date with your progress.

Contact Tyree Harris for any wiring you will need. I believe his number is 804-556-5200.

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by Paperman

Thank you all for the help of the fledgling flathead lover. I hope to get this thing in shape to drive next year. I assuem cable brakes, do the cables run in free air like the rods did or are they in a covering of some sort?

Cables are exposed from the brake cross shaft up until about 21 inches from the backing plates. From there they are covered, entering a conduit all the way to the brake backing plates.

[TonyM]

Before replacing the engine you will need to determine whether the car was originally equipped with a 60 hp engine or an 85 hp engine. The radiator and transmission are different and will not interchange between 60hp and 85hp. The rear end ratio is also different between the two engine models. A 60hp car was equipped with a 4.44 to 1 rear end ratio; the 85hp car was equipped with 3.78 to 1 rear end ratio.

[38Tudor]

Nice to see your dash still has some original wood grain to it. Mine has been wiped away.
A hard part to find is the cigar lighter.

[Paperman]

Looks like I have some added holes front and back. Im going to guess turn signals?

[Paperman]

Here is a shot of my engine bay, can you tell externally what trans it is, what engine I need to hunt for? Im tearing up Craigslist and starting to hit scrap yards to find some donors.

[38Tudor]

The car did not come with turn signals. Someone added them at some point that's why the holes. That's why you have aftermarket turn signal switch.
It looks like your trunk lid came off a 1937. I'm looking at the external hinge holes. Also the ford front emblem is missing. It's hard to tell from the picture but just above that should be a small emblem that says 85 or 60. That will tell you the motor.

[38Tudor]

Here's a picture of mine
IMG_8848.jpg

[Mart]

I'm not an expert, but I'd say the motor is the more common 85 horse, because the trans looks like the type that matches and the crossmember looks stock to me. I'm not a 38 or 60hp expert but I think the crossmember had the 60hp mounts added to it.

I would be looking for any engine 38-48 to fit in. They are broadly compatible, you would just have to address things like mech fan if you want to run one.

Again, I'm not 100% certain, but as the last year for mech brakes, the 38's were as good as they get, and (correct me if I'm wrong) were already a "floater" type design.

If the brakes are in good condition there would not be any real gain from going to hydraulics.

Good luck with it, it looks like a neat project. You just need to scare up a donor engine and get er up and runnin.

Mart.

[Paperman]

Alright I looked and it has an 85 over the space for the emblem. Man,you guys know your stuff.

Proper truck lid would not have holes? I see the hinges inside the trunk and assumed they bolted through the holes in the lid with some sort of dressed up nuts or sum such thing. it should be smoth in the back?

Edit: What say you all on the blinker holes, find some decent aged light and make them work or just leave the holes? I think it would look better with some sort of light in there even if they are not correct. Better then a empty hole.

[JM 35 Sedan]

When looking at your engine compartment picture, I do not see the 60 hp motor/radiator mounts that are normally riveted over top of the 85 hp mounts using the three small holes in the front crossmenber on each side. Now granted someone could have removed those, but I dought that. As others are saying, your car was most likely an 85 hp to begin with. That means the engine would have been either a 21 stud if the car was built very early, or more than likely a 24 stud if built later in the model year.

[green50]

Paperman, I sent you a PM. Lead on an engine.

[OLD...BILL]

Welcome to the Barn, we like pictures, you will find more help than you need here, what you have been told so fare, is good, get rid of those headlight things, in the trash. not for sale.... the original glass is so much nicer. and yes you car was an 85 hp. so the 24 stud is the engine you will look for, with "59" cast on the bellhousing, as soon as you see it you will know it will fit your trans. Tail lights, yes the holes you see town low on the side is for the tail lights, there not very big about 2-1/2 dia, and not safe, you need to put a THIRD break light inside the rear window, no new holes in the body, you can put turn signels in the tail lights.... NO NEW HOLE or AFTER MARKET junk lights... I'll stop now....... OLD.....BILL

[flatjack9]

"59" engines are 46 to 48, but will fit just fine.

[38Tudor]

Originally Posted by Paperman

Proper truck lid would not have holes? I see the hinges inside the trunk and assumed they bolted through the holes in the lid with some sort of dressed up nuts or sum such thing. it should be smoth in the back?

1937 had the hinges on the outside. 1938 are inside

[KiWinUS]

Great car I love it , I had it on my E... watchlist also . Careful with the cable brakes if they have not been converted. The price was right I believe.
Cheers
Tony

[wisbangman]

Greetings Paperman ! Love your 38 Standard.
The 38 Standard has a very unique grill. If you want to know where the idea for the 38 grill came from, Google 1937 Lincoln Zephyr. Both cars have the double thin chrome grill bars. I agree that you should 86 the sealed beam headlights. I have a 39 Standard that came with the after market lights, and I switched back to the originals, and am glad I did ! I also, second the idea of purchasing the 38/39 Ford book it is a real help! You have a very rare car.

[Paperman]

I'm on a CL engine about 4 hours from me. Comes with trans and accessories. He says it rolls but doesn't know if it runs. For the money it's worth rolling the dice.

[Tinker]

I'd say all engines are a core. Next it might be a good buy depending on price and what the engine condition is. enthusiasm is key but reality is just that. However you never know what is available if you don't try and look of it.

If the engine is reasonably, go for it. But be aware they are 70-80 year old engines and rebuilds can be expensive.

Ask specific questions and you will get fair answers on this site.

[Paperman]

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Ok what's a core that is fully dressed, rolls over smooth, 24 bolt and within reasonable driving distance worth? I have two located, one close that's a 21 bolt asking $800 and a 24 bolt with a trans for $350 bot it's 4 or more hours away. For three en a half it seems like a good one to cut teeth on. He says it's a 40', water at center of head. Carb is bagged so some care was given to thinking it was worth use later.

[Tinker]

Well.. That's a loaded question. What's fully dressed? Even a running engine is not a guarantee really. The 24 bolt and trans could be a good buy.. Really An unknown engine is worth a couple hundred, build sheet? Well... But, unless there is a money back guarantee on a crack free or runnable block the whole engine is only worth the things bolted to it.

Personally I'd go with a later 24 bolt engine. But a 21 is no chump and could serve you just as well.

Without specifics it's really a crap shoot to be honest.

[Paperman]

By dressed I mean carb, distributor, water pumps, generator, manifolds and such. Basically a unit that could have been a runner that was cut loose and stuck in a corner 20 years ago. I keep hearing of cracks, I assume they are common on these things. Are most serviceable/repairable or are they typically in a terminal area?

What do you all use for ignition wires? Can a universal set from the parts store get me running or are the special item? I'll search out a vintage set at some point but don't want to drop big coin on a set for an engine that may not pan out. I'm not cheap just want to work in baby steps.

[JSeery]

A high number of flatheads have cracks, some can be ignored, some repaired and some are fatal. Even a running engine can have sever cracks. It is hard to say much without taking the engine apart, having it tanked (cleaned) and then checked by a good machine shop which should include a pressure test. It is not very likely that you can get an engine that is setting around running without taking it apart and checking it out. All that I have taken apart are full of sludge and dried up oil, have dirty or clogged water jackets and pistons or valves stuck. If you are not careful you can damage the engine attempting to start it without checking it out. But then that does depend on the condition you find it in, there are just so many variables. The spark plug wires should not be an issue.

[Paperman]

Im digging for an engine. They are out there I jsut need to bit the bullet and buy one and pull it apart and hope for the best.

Is there a diagram of the dash layout that I can look at. Trying to figure out what all the knobs funtions are, and where is the start button? On the floor, dash, key?
I ordered a few books to start reading and getting the trailer set for the 12 hour drive to get it.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Some folks will sell a complete engine or just a block with the understanding that if any fatal cracks are found, they will return your money. I have sold two or three engines with this type of guarantee and luckily all have been good.

[JSeery]

The dash on a 38 should be fairly simple to figure out, not much there. The starter button is on the far left side. It provides a ground to the starter solenoid. The indicator above it is the high beam indicator. In the center of the dash are four knobs. Throttle, Choke, Cigar Lighter, Ash Tray. That's about it.

[4dFord/SC]

You might want to invest in one of these: http://www.gregsonline.com/eshop/Own...Car/38-FOM.htm

[Paperman]

Originally Posted by 4dFord/SC

You might want to invest in one of these: http://www.gregsonline.com/eshop/Own...Car/38-FOM.htm

Already did, should be in the box when I get home. Are there any heater or floor controls? Dimmer swith, or vent nobs? Whats the larger chrome handle in the center top of dash for?

[tubman]

Combination headlight/dimmer switch is on the steering wheel hub. The chrome handle is for opening the windshield for ventilation. It is hinged on the top.

[Paperman]

The car just keeps getting cooler!! And Ithought the ford trucks vents on the 80's trucks were the best invention ever, we will see maybe there is a new king of old school HVAC!!

[Seth Swoboda]

Paperman, I like your enthusiasm. Your offically hooked on early Fords!

[4dFord/SC]

There's a lever for the cowl vent under the center of the dash. There may be a knob for controlling the heater motor attached to the lip on the underside of the dash. Most were aftermarket items, and YMMV.

[JSeery]

Well if you like that (the windshield knob) then you should really get excited over the window mechanism! When you lower the windows the window moves straight back for a vent (think it's called a smokers window) before it moves down. There is also a lever under the dash that opens the cowl vent.

[ford38v8]

You will encounter many who would sell you things you "need" for your '38 Standard. Even reputable dealers can misunderstand your application and sell you incorrect parts. Therefore, your first investment should be in books to research before you wind up with a plethora of parts you don't need or can't use.

Regarding the engine/transmission you found for $350 ?, that may be a good investment, but you will wind up with excess parts you don't need, as the '38 will have bolt-ons that the '40 does not. The transmission included in that deal would be a side shifter, only the internals of use to you. I would hold out for a running engine, one that you can see running, and preferably setup for your application with generator mounted fan. Pay more of course, but you get what you pay for.

Someone advised brake floaters from Flathead Ted. Ted's floaters may be an improvement, but are the wrong type you'd want for your car, being of the original Hotchkiss design. You need the Bendix type as sold by C&G, to be adjusted with a brake spoon rather than a wrench. Major improvement and quick installation. You'll need to first go through the cables and clevises, replacing and lubricating as needed.

[Heard]

Welcome to the Barn! Neat car. Whatever you do, don't keep a spreadsheet of what you spend. Your wife or girlfriend or both will find it and you'll be in big trouble.

[Paperman]

I learned long ago I need a few things in life

1. Is a woman who can cook a bit and can clean after me
2. A woman who loves the things I do and doesn't really care they are crazy or expensive.
3. A girl who loves me and makes me laugh
4. A way to be sure these 3 people never meet or I'll be dead

[elwood]

^^^^^^^^^ now thats funny ^^^^^^^^^
nice car too, hey, use some light "white" scots brite pad, and soap and water, clean the car real good, let her dry, then rub it down good with Boiled Linseed oil, you wont believe it,
I rub my 50 F1 down once a year, its beautiful...

[supereal]

One of the main problems with the 37-38 Fords is the cable brake system. They are usually stuck in the sheath with rust and other crud. Those were the last years for cable brakes, as hydraulics came in '39. They can be a bear to adjust. That is why most have been converted to hydraulic brakes. The whole system is shown on page 19 in the green book.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by supereal

One of the main problems with the 37-38 Fords is the cable brake system. They are usually stuck in the sheath with rust and other crud. Those were the last years for cable brakes, as hydraulics came in '39. They can be a bear to adjust. That is why most have been converted to hydraulic brakes. The whole system is shown on page 19 in the green book.

Hi Bob, your expertise is known to all, but I'm afraid I have to take you to task on this issue.

The 1936 Lincoln Zephyr sported cable brakes, continuing through '38 alongside the '37 and '38 Ford. They were a great improvement over the previous rod brakes, and today are much appreciated by those who can't count on their early hydraulic brakes.

A proper setup would include replacement of worn cleavises, NOS cables and sheaths with modern lubricants, and of course good drums and shoes. Once Cable systems are restored, no further restoration is required, unlike hydraulic brake systems.

Dramatic improvement can also be achieved with the installation of Bendix type floaters, replacing the original Hotchkiss wedge type. If old Henry hadn't been adament about paying licencing fees, cable mechanicals with Bendix adjusters would have been vastly better and certainly more reliable than any hydraulics of the era. Laughed at by competitors, Ford sales rightly boasted "The safety of steel from pedal to wheel".

[Paperman]

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Been looking at cable prices and for about $30-35 a corner IF mine re bad. I should know in less than 24 hours I'll post some pics when I geter' home.

[Paperman]

Thank you all for the information and taking the time to help me but I am sitting here heartbroken. 14-1/2 hours on the road pulling an empty trailer. Went to get to it, got there and crawled under it as all car guys do. 15 seconds in and I see the thing I didn't want to see and asked about on the phone. Rusted, bulged/cracked/broken fame just rear of the back door passenger side. It's the type of rust issue where a few hits with a ball peen hammer and it would be a hole. I walked on the deal, hard,hard to do but I wasn't in this for frame repair or a major body swap if a frame could be found. If ànybody wants to buy it he's really wanting to sell it. I'm pretty sure a touch over $2k would bring it home. PM if you want more details. Damn I'm sick

[mfagan]

Better sad now than sorry later!!

[ford38v8]

I think you made a wise decision. There is a saying... Pay the premium price for the best example you can find. You'll be money ahead in the long run.

[38Tudor]

Wow!!!!! I'm so sorry to hear that!!!!! The guy should of said something about that! You will find another.

Before you bought it I contacted him if he was able to sell parts off of it and he said it a was to nice to be a parts car. Obviously not!

[wisbangman]

If it's the same car, it's for sale in Roscoe Illinois, on Craig's list - no mention of frame rust out. - Paperman, another, better car, or better deal, almost always comes along. As a Mortgage Lender at a local Bank, I saw So many people miss out when making a offer for a house. They were always heart broken. About 90% of the time, a few months later, they were back in, with an accepted offer on a home they liked much, much more, and were wearing the happy face! When you do find that next car, please let us know !

[RobertB]

Here's one. a 36...overpriced, but probably more rust free. Not very close either.

http://elpaso.craigslist.org/cto/4639397544.html

[Seth Swoboda]

Originally Posted by RobertB

Here's one. a 36...overpriced, but probably more rust free. Not very close either.

http://elpaso.craigslist.org/cto/4639397544.html

That heap is over priced. For $7,000 you can find a nice driving 46-48 that is an older restoration.

Keep your eye out paperman. You will find a better car. Pick up a Hemmings Motor News besides looking on the internet.

[TonyM]

Paperman, there is a running 1939 Standard on the Early Ford V-8 Club Classified page for what appears to be a reasonable price.