The Ford Barn

Shoebox · 10-25-2014, 01:42 PM

Well, today I brought home the flathead I mentioned here earlier this week. As the story goes a fella had this engine gone through sometime in the 80's, not completely assembled, project stalled, owner passed away. Engine has always been indoors but not properly stored. Has surface rust in cylinders above pistons, looking from underneath new pistons, lifters are evident, machine shop tag on block indicates .040 overbore and .020/.020 on crank. Not sure yet what year it is, 81A is found stamped on center main cap, not sure either just what I'm going to do with it, for now I think I'll fill the "down" cylinders with ATF and let sit for a while. Probably will end up doing a complete disassemble and clean up, see if cylinders clean up with a light hone.
As a side note, I also got quite a bit of NOS rod and main bearings in Ford boxes, look to be .010 under. I have attached some pics, would welcome any comments, thoughts or observations. Thank You!

Shoebox

V12Bill · 10-25-2014, 03:14 PM

"A" heads appeared in 38, Fan on generator stopped in 39 Standard and pickup. Does it have the raised intake of 1941 -2?

flatjack9 · 10-25-2014, 03:17 PM

Looks like a 39 engine. The A heads were introduced early in 39 production. The one box I can read - 1GA is 6 cyl.

Mart · 10-25-2014, 03:23 PM

Rod nuts don't match. Probably best to tear down, clean up and carefully reassemble, checking everything as you go.

Good find, though.

Mart.

flatjack9 · 10-25-2014, 03:45 PM

The castellated nuts would have been used in that era.

JSeery · 10-25-2014, 03:51 PM

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At the very least I would think you would want to have the block cleaned out (tanked), look inside the water passages. You also need to mag and pressure test the block before you sink money into it.

Gary in La. · 10-25-2014, 05:01 PM

!938 - 40 as it has the 4 freeze plugs in the pan rail.

Fe26 · 10-25-2014, 05:46 PM

The wire used with the castellated nuts looks amateur, to be sure I'd disassemble everything and start again.

G32 · 10-25-2014, 08:04 PM

Shoebox;
39-40 (same) -casting core hole bumps along pan rail, flat block sides, long
crankshaft (extended hub on pulley -38 had flat pulley-short crank).
Probably 81 221ci block but---
A 39-40 239ci 99 block would have same external features and look just
the same. Need to look inside now.
81 block should have water holes in middle of deck , triangle top, trapezoid
or "Keystone " in center and lower
99 block differs in that center hole is round.
Measure the bore diameter- 81 with .040 over would be under 3 1/8 ".
Brush off the outside of front crankshaft counterweight to find machinist's
stamped bore, main and rod journal sizes to confirm rebuilder's tag.
Looks good so far. All fun work now.
Gene Tulsa

slowforty · 10-26-2014, 01:23 AM

Mix some Acetone 50/50 with the ATF

Shoebox · 10-26-2014, 09:20 AM

You guys are sharp! Also shows the benefits of including pics. Mart, Fe26, Gary in La, I had noticed when loading this thing up that not all the rodnuts were castellated. With some aviation background I also felt the safety wiring was not, well,... not good. G-32, thanks for ALL the info, will be taking a closer look at the deck surface.
The plan right now is to do as gentle a tear down as possible and have the block tanked, baked and pressure tested. I can see the valves are mushroom ended, which would mean split valve guides, don't think I would be reusing those.
All my experience is with late model flatheads, this engine will have the floating bearings, correct?
I welcome any additional comments/observations!

Shoebox

scooder · 10-26-2014, 10:59 AM

Yep, floaty bearings are stock for that one. Though in England there a chance of thick insert bearings but most of these are lipped. Canada may have got these too, as they had thick insert on some pre 8BA engines.
Why not use the mushroom bottom valves and split guides? You have a full set in there, and they maybe New. I'd use them over repro New stuff any day in a stockish rebuild.
If you get um out no damage, keep um in order, they will most probably lashed right. This assumes the valves/seats clean up real gently. You'd then have a full set of butt ground lashed valves. You will likely never need to re adjust in the next 40-60 years!
And no worries about soft adjustable lifter devouring your cam.
Just my opinion here.
Good score,
Martin.

Mart · 10-26-2014, 12:42 PM

^^ Scooder speaks wise words. I'd use what is in there.

Mart.

Shoebox · 11-15-2014, 05:52 PM

........... Just a little follow up on the engine that followed me home. Using info that G32 shared, it appears that it is an 81 block as the water holes in the deck are trapezoid shaped. Picked up a side mount engine stand adapter from a fella in the classifieds and mixed up a 50/50 mixture of acetone and atf and put in cyls with pistons that are down in the bores. Have hit all the studs at their base with penetrating oil. No rush here, but will post pics when things start coming apart, hopefully fairly cooperatively.

Shoebox

38 coupe · 11-15-2014, 06:09 PM

This thread will allow you to positively ID your block: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...5301&showall=1

Shoebox · 11-23-2014, 05:03 PM

Been soaking the bores with atf/acetone hoping to free things up, and reading (here) about the sleeves these early engines came with. The bores measure 3 1/16 + .040 and I started looking closer and I believe all are sleeved. I have never seen a sleeve that didn't have a lip at the top. Take a look at the attached pic and tell me what you make of this. Is this what those thin steel sleeves look like?? Thanks,

Shoebox

Walt Dupont--Me. · 11-23-2014, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoebox

Been soaking the bores with atf/acetone hoping to free things up, and reading (here) about the sleeves these early engines came with. The bores measure 3 1/16 + .040 and I started looking closer and I believe all are sleeved. I have never seen a sleeve that didn't have a lip at the top. Take a look at the attached pic and tell me what you make of this. Is this what those thin steel sleeves look like?? Thanks,

Shoebox

That sleeve looks like a cast universal sleeve, that has been bored .040, the steel tin can sleeve cain't be bored. Walt

Binx · 11-23-2014, 08:18 PM

We're begging for more info Walt!! I see a sleeve that has been somehow filled and bored off center to fit a piston!!! What are we looking at??

Lonnie

Gary in La. · 11-23-2014, 08:42 PM

The angle at which the picture was taken just makes it look that way. You are seeing part of the sidewall of the sleeve.

40cpe · 11-23-2014, 08:42 PM

Hi Binx, I had to look at that twice, too. The piston is down in the bore about 1/2 way and the camera is taking an angled shot. What you see as the piston off-center is actually the side of the cylinder wall on the left side, the gray area being the cylinder wall. Recognizing the penetrant in the lower part of the cylinder helps focus things.

I think this is an example of different people seeing different things in a picture.

10-25-2014, 03:14 PM	#2
V12Bill Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mt. Holly,NJ Posts: 1,822	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead "A" heads appeared in 38, Fan on generator stopped in 39 Standard and pickup. Does it have the raised intake of 1941 -2?

10-25-2014, 03:17 PM	#3
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,526	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Looks like a 39 engine. The A heads were introduced early in 39 production. The one box I can read - 1GA is 6 cyl.

10-25-2014, 03:23 PM	#4
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,750	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Rod nuts don't match. Probably best to tear down, clean up and carefully reassemble, checking everything as you go. Good find, though. Mart.

10-25-2014, 03:45 PM	#5
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,526	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead The castellated nuts would have been used in that era.

10-25-2014, 03:51 PM	#6
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) At the very least I would think you would want to have the block cleaned out (tanked), look inside the water passages. You also need to mag and pressure test the block before you sink money into it.

10-25-2014, 05:01 PM	#7
Gary in La. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Louisiana Posts: 866	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead !938 - 40 as it has the 4 freeze plugs in the pan rail.

10-25-2014, 05:46 PM	#8
Fe26 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 949	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead The wire used with the castellated nuts looks amateur, to be sure I'd disassemble everything and start again.

10-25-2014, 08:04 PM	#9
G32 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 258	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Shoebox; 39-40 (same) -casting core hole bumps along pan rail, flat block sides, long crankshaft (extended hub on pulley -38 had flat pulley-short crank). Probably 81 221ci block but--- A 39-40 239ci 99 block would have same external features and look just the same. Need to look inside now. 81 block should have water holes in middle of deck , triangle top, trapezoid or "Keystone " in center and lower 99 block differs in that center hole is round. Measure the bore diameter- 81 with .040 over would be under 3 1/8 ". Brush off the outside of front crankshaft counterweight to find machinist's stamped bore, main and rod journal sizes to confirm rebuilder's tag. Looks good so far. All fun work now. Gene Tulsa

10-26-2014, 01:23 AM	#10
slowforty Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tinley Park Ill Posts: 1,061	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Mix some Acetone 50/50 with the ATF

10-26-2014, 09:20 AM	#11
Shoebox Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Holmen,Wisconsin Posts: 787	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead You guys are sharp! Also shows the benefits of including pics. Mart, Fe26, Gary in La, I had noticed when loading this thing up that not all the rodnuts were castellated. With some aviation background I also felt the safety wiring was not, well,... not good. G-32, thanks for ALL the info, will be taking a closer look at the deck surface. The plan right now is to do as gentle a tear down as possible and have the block tanked, baked and pressure tested. I can see the valves are mushroom ended, which would mean split valve guides, don't think I would be reusing those. All my experience is with late model flatheads, this engine will have the floating bearings, correct? I welcome any additional comments/observations! Shoebox

10-26-2014, 10:59 AM	#12
scooder Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,593	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Yep, floaty bearings are stock for that one. Though in England there a chance of thick insert bearings but most of these are lipped. Canada may have got these too, as they had thick insert on some pre 8BA engines. Why not use the mushroom bottom valves and split guides? You have a full set in there, and they maybe New. I'd use them over repro New stuff any day in a stockish rebuild. If you get um out no damage, keep um in order, they will most probably lashed right. This assumes the valves/seats clean up real gently. You'd then have a full set of butt ground lashed valves. You will likely never need to re adjust in the next 40-60 years! And no worries about soft adjustable lifter devouring your cam. Just my opinion here. Good score, Martin.

10-26-2014, 12:42 PM	#13
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,750	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead ^^ Scooder speaks wise words. I'd use what is in there. Mart.

11-15-2014, 05:52 PM	#14
Shoebox Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Holmen,Wisconsin Posts: 787	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead ........... Just a little follow up on the engine that followed me home. Using info that G32 shared, it appears that it is an 81 block as the water holes in the deck are trapezoid shaped. Picked up a side mount engine stand adapter from a fella in the classifieds and mixed up a 50/50 mixture of acetone and atf and put in cyls with pistons that are down in the bores. Have hit all the studs at their base with penetrating oil. No rush here, but will post pics when things start coming apart, hopefully fairly cooperatively. Shoebox

11-15-2014, 06:09 PM	#15
38 coupe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Texas Posts: 1,631	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead This thread will allow you to positively ID your block: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...5301&showall=1

11-23-2014, 08:18 PM	#18
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead We're begging for more info Walt!! I see a sleeve that has been somehow filled and bored off center to fit a piston!!! What are we looking at?? Lonnie

11-23-2014, 08:42 PM	#19
Gary in La. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Louisiana Posts: 866	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead The angle at which the picture was taken just makes it look that way. You are seeing part of the sidewall of the sleeve.

11-23-2014, 08:42 PM	#20
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: Brought Home the Rebuilt (30 yrs ago) Flathead Hi Binx, I had to look at that twice, too. The piston is down in the bore about 1/2 way and the camera is taking an angled shot. What you see as the piston off-center is actually the side of the cylinder wall on the left side, the gray area being the cylinder wall. Recognizing the penetrant in the lower part of the cylinder helps focus things. I think this is an example of different people seeing different things in a picture.