3 Pt Seat Belt install

[rally 1]

Does anyone have pics of a three point seat belt install into a Tudor?
Thanks
Ken

[Jim/GA]

Without trying to sound too negative, you really need to think this through.

The anchor points must be very strong or they will not hold fast in a collision. If they pull out, you no longer have a seat belt. A bolt and nut through stock sheetmetal might look good, but if it pulls through, you've got nothing.

Model A bodies are mostly wooden framed with a metal skin (until the slant windshield models) which will not hold the stress of a shoulder harness in a collision. The body will buckle unless extra reinforcement is built into the body before the interior fabric is installed.

The seats must be very strong, anchored well into the vehicle, and not fold forward. Otherwise in any sort of collision where you are thrown forward, the seat moves forward and you do not (because the belt is stopping you). This is particularly true if you have a rear passenger flying forward and hitting your seat back. This will be really bad on your body.

Do you remember when Detroit first put shoulder harnesses in new cars? That's when they started making the front seat backs latch. (You had to reach down and release the seat to get in the back.) This is why.

Unless you build a framework inside the car that holds everything really tight, you are creating a false sense of security with the belts. What good are they if they are going to fail when you need them.

Lap belts don't have so many issues, but you sure do need to make sure they are anchored into something more than stock sheetmetal.

My opinion, your mileage may vary.

[Jordan]

I think anything is better than nothing. If you get rear ended in an A by a car that's going 90, you're most likely not going to live. I put seat belts in for the minor scenarios where a door might come unlatched. I've also carried children in the past, and it keeps them in the seat instead of crawling around. I've also used it to latch down a car seat. Like I said, anything's better than nothing. I've had a couple close calls.... and one of those close calls is what made me get the seat belts.

[Bruce,Upstate NY]

Even if a shoulder belt mount tore out would it not have restrained your body's forward motion to some degree? Some restraint would be better than none, especially in a low speed collision.

[QGolden]

I tend to go with the "Something better than nothing" crowd. I think a lot of collisions are at 25 or less. You may have been driving at 45, but manage to reduce the speed just before impact to 25 or so. At 20 or 25 a steering wheel to the chest could be catastrophic, a head could well get to the windshield.

I have to think that a seatbelt, even installed in the existing metal/wood, offers some level of protection, or at least if it fails, it would have reduced your forward motion to some degree.. Always best to find a good anchor point, but not putting them in because they might fail at 30 or 40plus is not a tradeoff for me.

[MikeK]

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The "B" pillar in a Tudor is extremely robust, sufficient to hold the roof up if the car flips over. If you remove the upholstery and tack wood strip you can weld in an anchor plate with a threaded hole to hold the shoulder belt.

If you install lap belts in the back seat, too, someone flying forward into the back of your seat will not be an issue.

Since the A does not have a collapsable steering wheel, a three point harness is an extremely good idea. If you are in a collision severe enough to rip the shoulder mount from the B pillar leaving you "beltless", the energy necessary to rip out the mount will have reduced your forward motion considerably. The alternative (a simple lap belt) in the same collision will allow your upper torso to smash violently into the steering wheel, likely killing you.

[JtownJoe]

I have no technical or engineering back round to qualify my thoughts on this but my gut instinct says it's better to have been in a belt system that failed, at some reasonable point than not having one at all, all that is of course a moot point once the crash is severe enough.
That being said I only have lap belts in my Tudor. I realize they might be very little protection, from the steering column and windshield, in a heavy frontal collision but should certainly be of some help to keep from being ejected from the vehicle.
The endless debate will revolve around the severity of the crash since the 3 point, once it failed, eliminates the benefit of the lap belt that would not have failed.

[SeaSlugs]

well just remember at 30 mph a 160lb person in a head on accident with no seatbelt hits the dash/steeringwheel etc with 12 TONS of force. that force goes up exponentially with more weight and more speed.

with a seatbelt that doesnt stretch theres still 2.4 TONS of force on the human body held back by the seatbelt. can the tudor body hold back a MINIMUM of 2.4 tons? if that bolt rips out now you have a sharp bolt metal chunk and a buckle flying at the back of your head or your passengers...

best one would be a 4 point harness secured to the frame rails. or an added thick crossmember under the car supported and attached to the frame rails. 4 point for at least the driver to keep his chest off the wheel and his head/hands off the windshield. passenger could get by with a 3 point. rear laps only would suffice.

[Tom Endy]

If you get into a serious accident in a model A you are likely to be seriously injured of killed. Seat belts in a Model A, however they are attached, will keep you inside the car should a door come open or the car roll over.

About ten years ago there was a serious accident in Arizona on an interstate. A modern traveling at high speed rear ended a Model A. The Model A rolled over several times. The passenger riding in the front seat was thrown from the car and it rolled over on her and she was killed. The driver managed to stay in the car as he was hanging onto the steering wheel. He survived without serious injury. There were no seat belts in the car.

That was when I decided to put seat belts in my Victoria. I was mostly concerned about a passenger sitting in the front seat tumbling out the door during a left turn if the door came open.

I certainly agree with all the statements, "any seat belt is better than no seat belt".

Tom Endy

[29er]

I'm shopping for seat belts and have been intrigued by these:

http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/am4point.html

They have a lap belt and two shoulder belts with three attachment points on the floor (even though they are called a "4-point system"), thereby eliminating the problem of attaching a shoulder belt to the pillar. I don't know anybody who has used them in a Model A but would certainly like to hear from someone who has had first-hand experience with them in any vehicle.

[Arlen]

I've seen it done. The guy did a really nice job on it but it wads killer to do. Said he would never do another one.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I have friends who had the 3 point. They jumped a curb and hit a tree. They were going maybe 35? Everything held, and only suffered restraint bruising.

[QGolden]

Originally Posted by 29er

I'm shopping for seat belts and have been intrigued by these:

http://wescoperformance.stores.yahoo.net/am4point.html

I like that system, I think that would be perfect in my Speedster project.

[binkbee]

Just picture this in your mind before you do anything with belts in your "A". YOU ARE IN YOUR "A" SECURELY HELD IN WITH THE BELT FASTENED SOLIDLY TO THE VEHICLE FRAME. A SERIOUS ACCIDENT OCCURS AND THE "FLIMSY" WOOD-FRAMED BODY IS TORN OFF THE FRAME AND ENDS UP NEXT TO THE CHASSIS, IN THE DITCH! Where are you now, remembering that you were strapped to the frame? A guess would be that your lower half would still be strapped to the frame! GO FIGURE

[H. L. Chauvin]

Remember reading the story in reply #9 posted by Mr. Endy -- so sad.

Also another story some time ago where a wife was thrown out of the opened Model A door & paralyzed for life -- every time somebody posted a remark against seat belts, it was very sad to hear this other guy chime in that his wife would be walking today if he had installed just the lap type seat belts.

Agree with saying any life safety attempt is better than nothing -- we are all so fragile on the highway -- and our fragility occurs often -- every day that we drive or even riding with somebody else.

[rally 1]

Thanks for the feedback.
The "B" pillar is all steel in a Tudor. I was planning to weld in some mounting plates, then cover with interior panel.
I've already reinforced the floor where my lap belts currently mount.
My concern was where to mount the belt retractor, looking to see if anyone could provide a pic of their installation.
I've looked at the WESCO and Julianos site, downloaded the diagrams.

I already replaced the severly worn striker plates, and rebuilt the latch.
Staying in the car is preferable to getting thrown out in a collision.

The next step is to get the belt assemblies ordered.

Pics to follow.
Ken

[Tom Wesenberg]

I've never heard of a Model A body torn from the frame. If the accident was that bad the only hope of living would have been an ejection seat and a parachute.

[Doug in NJ]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

That was when I decided to put seat belts in my Victoria. I was mostly concerned about a passenger sitting in the front seat tumbling out the door during a left turn if the door came open.

That by itself is a good enough reason to have seat belts!

Doug

[mhsprecher]

I have belts in the front and back of my A. I bought it that way. I installed seat belts in my 56 Chevy and my 54 Ford pickup long ago. I like the idea of a harness and would never have a car without seat belts. There was another thread a while back that discussed the harness. I like this idea a lot and will investigate.

[Art Bjornestad]

Don't think for an instant that only old cars are risky, I launched an 8 month pregnant lady from my 55 VW sedan during a very sharp left turn at about 15mph. The victim survived and had a normal baby boy but it was a close call.

Seat belts are life savers.