Engine damage question....

[adavis]

Man, what a crappy situation. I thought by having the motor completely rebuilt I'd be good to go for many years, but here I am less that 5000 miles later and back to square one.
I've decided to go with new insert rods. I will have the crank rod journals turned down to model A size (1.499-500) and the inserts will work without oil pressure. I would like to know if anyone has an opinion on whether or not I should bite the bullet and go insert mains as well. What kind of machine work is involved in converting my Babbitt mains to insert and is it something my local machine shop can do or does it need to be sent to a shop that specializes in model A/B engines? I ask because shipping will add to the cost, and I'm guessing the machining cost won't be cheap to begin with.
As I stated multiple times.....I'm not trying to build a race engine. I just want a car that is fun to drive AND RELIABLE!! If inserts are the way to go and will give me that reliability the I'll save up and spend the money. I don't trust the local Babbitt shop at this point so I'm kinda stuck to shipping the engine if it needs new Babbitt mains, which is another reason why I'm asking these questions. I do NOT want to get this whole thing back together after spending $1500 to correct the rod/piston issues just to have the mains let go next spring.
Thanks for all the input and advice. I'm trying to sort through it all. I appreciate all the help.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Halswell

Back in the day when I was learning about the Model A ford engine I was taught that one never put oil control rings on to a new bore. A plain cast iron oil ring as Henry used in the factory was correct. I note that your engine has oil control rings those with scrapers and the w shaped bits etc. This seems to be a common practice now as all the ring sets we are getting here (NZ) contain these oil control rings rather than plain cast iron oil rings. Oil control rings should only be used on re ringing jobs on old bores. I saw another thread where the chap had seized rings same problem! The Model A is not an oil burner even when worn. Happy Motoring.

"Agree"

[Tom Wesenberg]

Don't turn your B engine crank down to Model A size. The B size is stronger.

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Don't turn your B engine crank down to Model A size. The B size is stronger.

I agree with Tom. Antique Engine Rebuilding, AER, sells "B" insert rods. Go to his website: http://www.antiqueenginerebuilding.com/rods.htm

I've used quite a few sets of these and they work very good.
Good Day!

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

One of the reasons your rear main is leaking so badly is the grooves on the front thrust are not cut correctly. These grooves should go all the way to the edge of the thrust, not just part way. The reason the B engine has the groove cut all the way across the thrust is because it has some pressure from the pump, unlike the A which is gravity feed only. An A will leak with just a small amount of excess clearance with just the head pressure from the valve chamber so, a B will almost spew if these grooves are not properly done. I have a factory replacement rear cap I use for a reference that has the grooves as described. I will try to get a picture today and post it this evening. Any of those rear seals that were the end all be all back in the day are less than useless. I just replaced the mains on an A engine that had a rope that had begun to disintegrate and there were lots of fibers in the pump screen. The other problem this motor had was, an excess of RTV sealer all through the bearings and in the pump. I posted those pics earlier last week to show that, when RTV is used it not only squeezes out of the sides, it squeezes into the bearings also. Once it fills the wells, your engine is DOOMED.

I have had many N.O.S. Rear main caps, for Model B's. They all had the same well on the thrust, it is not put there for an oil groove to drain away the oil, it is a well pocket to hold oil on the thrust. So if you have been cutting them all the way through, you have been depleating the Rear main and thrust, of some oil.

There was two kinds of rear main caps you could get from Ford.

1. A New standard cap with grooves, for replacement.

2. A New rough babbitted cap that had been peened with the two oil pockets on the thrust, as the K.R.Wilson did not have cutters or provisions to put those in, and also, I think they would have been passed over.

Many Modern car bearings are built like that also, as it really helps the oiling.

[hardtimes]

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Hey James,
Seems that that RTV black stuff is both a benefit , when used properly, and a curse when not,eh ! What do you , as builder, use as a sealant ?
I've heard that Henry originally NEVER used a rear seal, and that the rear seal developed through the racing crowd/industry. If so, how did Ford control leaking then with only a metal disc /slinger. My guess, he built to close tolerances and didn't give a hoot about a little 'marking territory' ...a popular giggle among Model A owners, it seems.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Once it fills the wells, your engine is DOOMED. "END QUOTE"

What did you bean by that James, as it Zoomed over me.

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Don't turn your B engine crank down to Model A size. The B size is stronger.

I agree, plus didnt some of the problems get blamed on a crank being ground incorrectly? ( Even though the bearings are sized to the crank)
Good Luck.

[hardtimes]

Hey Herm,
Thanks for the explanation and picture, as learned something here !

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Hey James,
Seems that that RTV black stuff is both a benefit , when used properly, and a curse when not,eh ! What do you , as builder, use as a sealant ?
I've heard that Henry originally NEVER used a rear seal, and that the rear seal developed through the racing crowd/industry. If so, how did Ford control leaking then with only a metal disc /slinger. My guess, he built to close tolerances and didn't give a hoot about a little 'marking territory' ...a popular giggle among Model A owners, it seems.

Nothing. You are probably correct about the clearances and marking some territory.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Kohnke Rebabbitting

Once it fills the wells, your engine is DOOMED. "END QUOTE"

What did you bean by that James, as it Zoomed over me.

Once the silicone sealant squeezes into the wells the engine is doomed to failure.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Don't turn your B engine crank down to Model A size. The B size is stronger.

I agree with Tom also. That would be a waist of a good crank.

[jr-41ford]

Originally Posted by adavis

jr-41ford.....I completely understand what you are saying. I'm not blaming anyone because I don't know enough about this stuff to point fingers, but from what I'm learning it doesn't seem good. I'm sure there are a gaggle of engines out there built by this shop, but I have got to figure out why mine isn't right so I can fix it.

I'm not putting blame on anyone, myself. At our car club (non-Model A) meeting this morning, discussed this thread. About half of the local Model A club belongs to this club too. Quite a few of us know the shop, no negative words, but we are watching this thread.

Just a quick side note, missed the Flathead Reliability Run this year. I heard the "house" band didn't play this year at the new location. They sure knew how to bust up a good party!

[tbirdtbird]

In all likelihood the shop put a new employee on the babbitting task or in some other way delegated without proper supervision....happens more often than you think......

[adavis]

The shop that did this is basically 3 guys. The owner and one of the employees are the only ones that work on the cars/engines. They send the Babbitt work a few miles away to a shop that specializes in Babbitt work. They are a well known shop and I've never heard anything negative about them. I just don't understand how I could have so much happen in one engine......

The reliability run was AWESOME this year. Always a killer group of cars and this year was no different. There was a '32 roadster there that was unbelievable. HOWEVER, the house band was not in attendance and it wasn't quite the same. I saw a pedal car stroller rolling around with a little tombstone on it that read "RIP GCR" and it made me smile. Now if only my car would have lived up to the shows name we wouldn't all be here talking about Babbitt bearings.............................

[adavis]

Anyone have an opinion on Snyder's vs Bratton's pistons?

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by adavis

Anyone have an opinion on Snyder's vs Bratton's pistons?

Have YOU called Snyders/Brattons to inquire about their pistons and then compared for yourself

[adavis]

nope. but I would assume they will each say their pistons are the best.....if they don't say that, why are they carrying the pistons????

The pictures look the same on both websites so I wouldn't be surprised if they are from the same supplier......

[tbirdtbird]

around here we are using short skirt 283 style pistons, less to go wrong; perform better. search my posts

In 1930 there was not a road that could support driving faster than 45 mph and even then you'd knock your teeth out; all dirt roads. So the old-school long skirt pistons did OK and that was all they had, and they knew how to clearance them

Today everyone wants to go 60-65 on these same low-tech pistons and crank up to 3100 rpm, and clearance them at .002 (WHY to all the above)

Shove 283 style in there, short skirt, less friction, narrow rings, use same rods, clearance at .0035 (.001 per inch of piston diameter), and never look back

[adavis]

This is a model B motor. From what I've read the rod length is different so 283 pistons wont work without special rods that are longer.