PCV for 59a?

[drolston]

Enjoyed the recent thread on PCV for 8ba. Wondering if there is a way to accomplish the benefits on a 59a engine. Without giving up the mechanical fuel pump.

Would it be possible to replace my shiny chrome oil filler cap with a PCV device? If it hooked into the vacuum brake port, would it mess up the vacuum brake (or vacuum gauge which taps into that line). Would a PCV pull more air flow than windshield wipers? Would the vent on the oil pan defeat the purpose of the PCV.

[JSeery]

Have you tried a site search? There should be a number of threads on the topic both on the Barn and the HAMB.

[V8 Bob]

I think the easiest (and best) way for a pcv on a 59A is to install the valve forward on the intake, just above the front vertical stand pipe in the valve chest, which should be removed and the remaining port plugged, or plugging the lower RF oil pan vent. The fuel pump stand/oil fill can remain, although a better higher quality filter should be on top of the stand. This is basically how the '40s military V8 pcv systems were installed.

[40 Deluxe]

"Vacuum brake port"? Is this 59A in a large truck?

[drolston]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Have you tried a site search? There should be a number of threads on the topic both on the Barn and the HAMB.

PCV search does not bring up much on Barn. I will try HAMB.

[drolston]

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Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

"Vacuum brake port"? Is this 59A in a large truck?

Nope, it's in a '41 coupe with a vacuum brake on the distributor advance.

[drolston]

Originally Posted by V8 Bob

I think the easiest (and best) way for a pcv on a 59A is to install the valve forward on the intake, just above the front vertical stand pipe in the valve chest, which should be removed and the remaining port plugged, or plugging the lower RF oil pan vent. The fuel pump stand/oil fill can remain, although a better higher quality filter should be on top of the stand. This is basically how the '40s military V8 pcv systems were installed.

Clearly I do not understand the purpose of a PCV. If the objective is to suck fumes out of the crank case and valve chamber, the air has to come in from someplace to replace what is sucked out. Why not suck it out through the breather at the oil filler and have the fresh air come in through the vent in the pan? What am I missing?

[JSeery]

Here is a couple of links from the HAMB:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...ad-pcv.702867/

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...ead-pcv.14648/

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...ad-pcv.239953/

An online search of "flathead PCV" turns up a lot of hits.

[V8 Bob]

Originally Posted by drolston

Clearly I do not understand the purpose of a PCV. If the objective is to suck fumes out of the crank case and valve chamber, the air has to come in from someplace to replace what is sucked out. Why not suck it out through the breather at the oil filler and have the fresh air come in through the vent in the pan? What am I missing?

A pcv is a controlled vacuum leak that provides constant ventilation through the engine, removing blow-by gasses whenever the engine is running. A road draft only allows ventilation when the vehicle is moving.
The intake air should be filtered and as clean as possible. Reversing the flow as you state would bring dirty/contaminated and unfiltered air into the engine.
Placing a pcv in the intake area above the stand pipe will capture the fumes that normally would travel down the stand pipe and out the pan vent on '35-'48 engines.
Posting pictures on this forum can be difficult since Photobucket changed their policy, but you'll find pictures on the internet of early and late flathead ventilation systems to better understand where pcv placement would be best.

[britman]

I used a version of this setup on my 39 rebuild (from fordbarn and HAMB, many ideas can be found). I now have several thousand miles on it with no problems and no blow-by.

[A bones]

That's just it. A running motor, thanks to combustion pressure, is constantly producing hot noxious exhaust gases.

To JSeery and V8Bob I began this composition earlier have had distractions and see y'all have supplied info as well. Thanks for input. Here is my take:

The majority is pumped out the tailpipe. Some combustion pressure, however, slips past the rings and marries up with the over heated oil from the cylinder walls.

The old 'road draft' system left the oil in the center of the travel lane. The stink of it was passed on to the atmosphere. Any crowded multi-lane roadway back then, had the condition of smog above it,,,, to the point of limiting long range visibility. An environment that could not endure.

So the use of intake vacuum can pull this nastiness back into the cylinders to be refried and properly expelled ( mostly ) through the muffler/tailpipe system. The result greatly reduces the density of oily gases in the air.

Another happy and positive by-product of the PCV system is the reduction of pressure within the engine oiling workings. Pressure that taxes the seals to maintain outer dryness. Gaskets and seals are not as challenged ( remember the manifold vacuum reduces the constant-combustion-blow-by-pressure ).

Motors that are known to weep oil become much less slimey when fit with a PCV.

Thanks for listening, let me close with this anecdote. Back when wire mesh air 'cleaners' and worn out rings allowed a fair amount of crud/sludge to build up and clog the road draft tube. Combustion gas, which contains gasolene, could build to the point of volatility.

Having my home and my Uncles Gulf station both on long hills. I have witnessed three times the display of a crankcase explosion. A nice healthy boom. The oil pans distorted and blown out, a mess of blackness beneath the car and a driver going Wtf? Time to call the wrecker man.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by A bones

Another happy and positive by-product of the PCV system is the reduction of pressure within the engine oiling workings. Pressure that taxes the seals to maintain outer dryness. Gaskets and seals are not as challenged ( remember the manifold vacuum reduces the constant-combustion-pressure-blow-by ).

Motors that are known to weep oil become much less slimey when fit with a PC.

Amen to that. Had a dribble of oil out the front seal until the PCV was installed.
This is a water column test I did some time ago to confirm vacuum pressure in the crankcase.

[blucar]

The questions and responses to most of the inquiries about installing a PCV system on a Early Ford V8, or for that matter any vehicle built prior to 1963, never cease to amaze me. The PCV is very simple efficient system that provides Positive Crankcase Ventilation with only one moving part, the valve and spring within the valve it's self. The system relies on fresh filtered air being drawn into the engine, and contaminated air being drawn out of the crankcase/block and into the intake portion of the engine via a vacuum source, where it is burnt off during the combustion cycle.
Many people want to over engineer a PCV system, they try to conceal the PCV up under the intake manifold, which requires removal of the intake manifold to service the PCV. I find this to be rather cumbersome/counter-productive.
The '32-48 flat heads are a little more difficult to install a PCV on. However, the only thing that has to be removed is the pan breather if so equipped. A filtered cap has to be used on the fuel pump stand to provide fresh air into the engine. A 3/8" vacuum source has to be obtained. This can usually be obtained via a 1/2" plate under the carb. Finding a location for the PCV is a little more difficult. A PCV for a 230/300, CID engine must be used, one with a 1/2" threaded base can be used, however, a hole must be drilled into the forward portion of the intake manifold which then has to be threaded in a like thread. A good quality hose is then connected to the vacuum port and the PCV. Some intake manifolds have large threaded vacuum ports which were intended for vacuum assisted brakes.
The 8BA engines pose a different solution to the placement of the PCV due to the location of the front Oil fill tube.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by drolston

Nope, it's in a '41 coupe with a vacuum brake on the distributor advance.

Oh boy! Talk about brain fade! Didn't think about that. My mind went to the vacuum brake boosters seen on large trucks for some reason.

[A bones]

Originally Posted by blucar

The questions and responses to most of the inquiries about installing a PCV system on a Early Ford V8, or for that matter any vehicle built prior to 1963, never cease to amaze me. The PCV is very simple efficient system that provides Positive Crankcase Ventilation with only one moving part, the valve and spring within the valve it's self. The system relies on fresh filtered air being drawn into the engine, and contaminated air being drawn out of the crankcase/block and into the intake portion of the engine via a vacuum source, where it is burnt off during the combustion cycle.
Many people want to over engineer a PCV system, they try to conceal the PCV up under the intake manifold, which requires removal of the intake manifold to service the PCV. I find this to be rather cumbersome/counter-productive.
The '32-48 flat heads are a little more difficult to install a PCV on. However, the only thing that has to be removed is the pan breather if so equipped. A filtered cap has to be used on the fuel pump stand to provide fresh air into the engine. A 3/8" vacuum source has to be obtained. This can usually be obtained via a 1/2" plate under the carb. Finding a location for the PCV is a little more difficult. A PCV for a 230/300, CID engine must be used, one with a 1/2" threaded base can be used, however, a hole must be drilled into the forward portion of the intake manifold which then has to be threaded in a like thread. A good quality hose is then connected to the vacuum port and the PCV. Some intake manifolds have large threaded vacuum ports which were intended for vacuum assisted brakes.
The 8BA engines pose a different solution to the placement of the PCV due to the location of the front Oil fill tube.

Bang, nail on the head. Thanks for the simple good info, about install.
My diatribe however was in answer to drolston's statement that he did not understand the purpose. ( Should have used quote )

Spending most of my life in Philfthadelphia, I have always been grateful for the PCV miracle. Things got very nasty in the summer with humidity and a thing they called a temperature inversion. It took the pleasure out of breathing, or trying to see a blue (not gray) sky.

Thanks for listening.

[cdan34]

I'm intrigued by the pcv ideas.

I don't use my intake manifold for the vacuum under carburator. I was informed by a flathead builder that it leans the mixture, unless the carb is jetted for that. So if you want suction you should go through the air cleaner above carb. There isn't to much suction there. So what I did is come out of the oil filler tube in the front of manifold. Also coming up from pan, having this hose which is attached to an oil separator and gets the vacuum from the exhaust that goes through a check valve first (we don't want explosions here).
I check the oil separator after a couple hundred mi. and I get water and a slight bit of mixed oil. This is a blown flathead and this method seems to work well. I think the insides are staying clean.

cdan34

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by drolston

PCV search does not bring up much on Barn. I will try HAMB.

Google is your friend.
Is this enough "LOL"

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-C...pe=&as_rights=

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-C...pe=&as_rights=

R

[blucar]

Solutions to solve the emission problems, (Smog) emitted by the average vehicle engine keep popping up on a regular basis on the majority of the old car forums. The majority of the retro systems proposed are over-engineered and complicated with little chance of actually working. A case in point; installing a PCV devise in the bottom of the intake manifold with no baffles to eliminate oil being sucked into the PCV, and servicing of the PCV requiring the removal of the intake manifold.
To clear the air I am going to clarify who I am. I am not an engineer, I have over sixty-five years of work experience on vehicles, large and small. I took Auto Tech in high school for three years because I thought I wanted to be a mechanic, my career took me in different directions. I have a very high mechanical aptitude, and I am very long on common sense.
It is fact that the adoption of the PCV in 1963 to the internal combustion engines in use at the time eliminated 90/95% of the emissions that entered into our air, the majority of the emission systems that followed during the '60's, 70's and '80's were knee jerk systems that resulted in engines that delivered poor performance and became commonly known as SMOG motors, a term synonymous with poor performance.
By the late '80's, early '90's the manufactures wised up and started building engines with better fuel economy and performance with lower CID, while at the same time delivering very high longevity..
By the '70's/'80's engines were so screwed up with EGR's air pumps, etc, yet the PCV kept soldiering along, doing it's job of keeping the air we breath reasonable clean.
OK, I have laid the ground work for my theory on PCV's:
I have re-thought the subject of converting an early flat head engine, in the process it dawned on me that I had already solved the problem when I converted my '57 Ford T-Bird to a PCV in 1973 so that the car would meet California's new emission standards that became law in 1975. The system that California adopted was another knee-jerk system called NOX.. This system required the elimination of vacuum to the distributor and the drilling of holes in the valve covers for fittings to which hoses were connect to the air cleaner. Drilling holes into the aluminum valve covers and chrome air cleaner on my Bird was not an option.
At the time I had two '64 Ford trucks that had the Y Block V8's and PCV's, therefore they were exempt from the NOX requirement. I secured a PCV system from a '64 292 V8, installed same on my Bird, the car met the CA standards for emissions, I was home free.
While looking for a PCV system for my Bird I discovered that the '64-65 GM trucks I had in my fleet had PCV systems very similar to the Ford 292 V8's.
Prior to 1963 the majority of the engines in use had road draft tubes for engine ventilation.
Ford and GM simply removed the road draft tube, fabricated an adapter to fit into the hole in the block, securing same with the same bolt that attached the discarded road draft tube. A length of hose and a PCV connected to a vacuum source completed the system, probably at a cost less than what the road draft tubes cost. Value engineering at it's best.
The early Ford 292's had a crankcase vent on the lower side of the block, '64 and later do not. The early vent has to be blocked off just like the pan breathers on some flat heads.
Now to the problem of installing a PCV on a flathead Ford V8:
The 8BA style of engine should be very simple because they have a road draft tube located to the front of the engine. The draft tube would require removal and be blocked off. Remove the fuel pump and pump stand, install a block fitting similar to the one used on the 292's, using a length of quality hose with a PCV in it, attach the hose to a vacuum source in the manifold.. There is no need for a secondary hose going to the air cleaner. That system is used on some overhead valve engines with the hose attached to the valve cover. Discard the troublesome mechanical fuel pump, use an electric. Placing the PCV in the port where the road draft tube was would not be a good idea. The vacuum could conflict with the fresh air flow coming into the oil fill tube.
The pre 53 engines, 59AB, 21A, etc., present some problems. The use of a 8BA intake manifold could be a simple solution, however, leaving the oil fill tube and fuel pump in place would provide a fresh air source. Drilling a hole into the front portion of the intake manifold, placing a threaded PCV into the hole would solve that problem.
On the theory about using vacuum from the base of the carb., and thereby making the fuel mixture lean, that is a normal place for vacuum for wipers, Columbia and/or power brake boosters. Most older engines run rich, and it is a fact that the enriched vapors from the PCV system tend to make the fuel mixture a little rich. We have had to lean out the fuel ratio on the majority of the engines I have converted to PCV.s
In

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by blucar

Now to the problem of installing a PCV on a flathead Ford V8:
The 8BA style of engine should be very simple because they have a road draft tube located to the front of the engine. The draft tube would require removal and be blocked off. Remove the fuel pump and pump stand, install a block fitting similar to the one used on the 292's, using a length of quality hose with a PCV in it, attach the hose to a vacuum source in the manifold.. There is no need for a secondary hose going to the air cleaner. That system is used on some overhead valve engines with the hose attached to the valve cover. Discard the troublesome mechanical fuel pump, use an electric. Placing the PCV in the port where the road draft tube was would not be a good idea. The vacuum could conflict with the fresh air flow coming into the oil fill tube.

Really?

[Ronnie]

^^^^ x2 ???

R