Blower Question

[jrvariel48]

I have a Camden 9" blower and I would like everyone's opinions on installing it on a stock motor. I'm not looking to get full performance out of it, just a little.
I'm thinking 2-3 lbs. of boost? I'd like to know if this is do-able or if I'm asking for trouble. I've read some books that say it's possible, but I'd like to hear from the experts.
The motor is a 1946 59 with very low miles. It runs excellent with no smoke and the compression is at 100 lbs. or above on all cylinders. The blower is set up with a 600 cfm carb which I think will probably be to big for a stock application.

Please chime in.

Happy Father's Day to all the Dad's out there!

Thank you,

Joe

[scooder]

I say go for it.
How's your compression ratio? Below 8ish to 1 will be fine with 2-3 lbs. I think that carb may be ok, it's a vacuum secondary so should be able to be calibrated to work fine, probably. You gotta remember the required air flow of a blown engine is higher than a naturally aspirated engine. Would look loads better with a pair of 94 or 97's or a early Rochester 4jet or WCFB.
Cast pistons will be fine with with that tiny amount of boost, as would the ignition. 2-3lb I feel won't require any "blower motor required" changes from a stock engine.
Just don't forget the oil line to the blower on they Camden huffers.
Martin.

[jrvariel48]

Scooder, thanks for your response, it sounds very promising! I do have a pair of 94's I could add. I'm only guessing that my compression ratio would be the stock ratio. From what I've read, it's about 6.75? As far as ignition goes, it is necessary for a boost retard module to control detonation or will this not be a factor because of the low boost?
How about the stock fuel pump? I've run the dual 94's on an Edelbrock Slingshot on the stock pump.
Thanks again.

[Ol' Ron]

The CR of a stock 59 is probably 6:1 maybe even less. So I think you're golden. Now, besides the blower gearing, you'll have to do something with the ignition advance and maybe a hotter spark. Good luck, keep us posted.

[rotorwrench]

If you have access to machine equipment to make some of the drive system components and such, it makes these mods more do-able. The 600 CFM is big. Somewhere around 400 CFM like the Holley 390 may be better.

The 9-inch blower seems kind of small according to their website. Most of the info is for Mazda rotary engines and 4-bangers so it doesn't tell you it's design capability like the GMC blower numbers do. It would be better to have one that can handle needs of a 240 to 290 CID engine without driving it too fast and I can't tell if the 9-inch Camden is in that category or not. The faster you drive them the quicker they wear out. You might check out Roadrunner Engineering's or H&H's stuff. Some of it is expensive but some isn't bad. The problems are always in the little details.

[Bored&Stroked]

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You should probably shoot for 5 lbs of boost or so - that will make a noticeable performance difference and won't hurt your engine at all. Flatheads really respond to superchargers - so you'll love it. The original SCoT blowers put out about 5 lbs - potentially 7 at times . . . and they were originally designed as a bolt on accessory for stock flatheads. I'd put a good exhaust system on the engine (headers), make sure you have a good hot ignition and set the advance a bit lower - I'd probably start with about 15 before TDC and go from there.

The 600 cfm carb will probably be too big - I'd go with a Holley 390 if you want to stay with a 4 barrel . . . or a couple Stromberg's. The easiest 'traditional' carb to use would be a Stromberg style - as they don't have vacuum operated power-valves. If you run the Holley 390, you may need to boost-reference the power valves - so they actually enrichen the mixture at the right time. Here is a little quote to think about:

The issue is at part-throttle, not WOT. The positive displacement supercharger will make pressure in the engine when there is vacuum between the carbs and blower intake.

The reason for boost reference is at part-throttle there can be pressure below the blower and vacuum above it. The power valve closes any time the pressure difference (vacuum) across the diaphragm and spring is great enough. Rig a vacuum gauge above the blower and a pressure/vacuum gauge below it and see for yourself. When the cylinders are seeing boost but the carbs are still seeing vacuum and PV’s are closed is when the “blower sneeze” occurs. The good thing with boost reference PV’s is when there is pressure, it pushes them open so they cannot partially close as vacuum climbs with RPM.


Here is a link to modifying a Holley for boost referenced power valves on typical Holley 4 barrels - can't say I've tried this on a Holley 94!

http://www.motorsportsvillage.com/modifycarb.html

The one thing you don't want to do is run it too lean, so pay attention to your jetting and if you can hookup an AFR meter for tuning, they can be a big help. Under full boost and load, aim for an AFR around 12.5 or so to 1. The last thing you ever want is detonation - it is the killer of engines (especially ones with cast pistons).

Once you're comfortable with the tune, then you might try to work with the timing and potentially lean it out just a bit (paying attention to the plugs and detonation) - maybe getting closer to 13 -1 - again under wide open throttle and full-boost.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

The CR of a stock 59 is probably 6:1 maybe even less. So I think you're golden. Now, besides the blower gearing, you'll have to do something with the ignition advance and maybe a hotter spark. Good luck, keep us posted.

Ron, thanks for responding.
Will I need a boost retard module to control detonation?
Right now I'm running a crab distributor with a Pertronix set-up.
Can I get the advance & hot spark I need with this?

[expavr]

According to the attached BDS chart and using your proposed 2#'s of boost in combination with a CR of 6.0 the final CR would be about 7. I don't see detonation being an issue on your build. In fact you should be OK running 87 octane fuel. http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/technical-charts.html

[slowforty]

Dont forget to get three or four new sets of head gaskets. A friend of mine had this set up and he got real good at changing a head gasket.

[Ol' Ron]

I'll have more info after Horrelll's engine is on the road as far as ignition timing. He's running ab Edelgrock 500 modified for a blower, but I have no idea what they are, I think your in a learning curve. Be nice if you had an AF meter to go by. I have a bUICK 3.8 Blower on a homemade intakebut have never tried it.YET!!!

[scooder]

Blower size,
The Camden 9" blowers capacity is 144 cu,
Weiand 142 and B & M 144 are same size,
Roadrunner regular set up uses the 142 Weiand.
So your ok there.
Ignition,
at your desired 2-3 psi, nudging the timing back a couple of degrees should be all that's needed. You could run a boost retard device and stock timing if you wanted. These retard the timing 1-2 degrees per lb of boost, I don't think you'll need it. The above mentioned SCOT used stock ignition.

Carb size,
I'd be surprised if your Holley couldn't be calibrated to work very well.

Boost reference power valve.
If you've got the 335 hp Joe abbins book, he dyno tested Holleys blower calibrated carb, that has a boost reference power valve. And reported no real difference on the dyno. His kits don't use these carbs. These boost reference carbs are a relatively new thing. I do fully understand the idea behind this, but can't dismiss the fact that before maybe 10-20 years ago this was a very rare modification,
thousands and thousands of blown motors didn't/don't use blower/boost reference power valves/metering rods. It would allow you maybe to run a leaner mixture at idle and cruise. Obviously this power valve talk is irrelevant to a 97 with its mechanical power circuit. This does make the 97 desirable as it doesn't sence load to bring in the power circuit, just your foot stomping on the gas has its power valve open till you get off it.

In conclusion,
With your desired 2-3 lb, in my opinion these "blower motor" modifications arnt needed. I'm not saying that they're a bad idea, these are well thought out ideas. I just don't think they're needed on your setup.
I do agree with Dale that 5-7 lb would be much more noticeable, like the original SCOT setup. Which didn't have boost reference power valves or boost retard. Using these boost referencing modifications along with an ignition that has both mechanical and vacuum advance taped into below the blower, will allow you to run more advance at cruise and a leaner fuel mixture. Which should deliver better mpg, which is always nice. We have to remember we're talking low boost street use here, we're not "pushing the envelope".
If you haven't got Joe abbins second book (the 335 hp flathead one" you should get it. Lots of relevant info in the book. Sure his dyno appears to be a very happy dyno, but as he uses the same dyno on all the test, the results are relative.

Think I've waffled long enough.
These are my opinions, not arguing, just discussing.

Martin.

[scooder]

Damn! That's a long post!
Sorry about that.
Martin.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by scooder

Damn! That's a long post!
Sorry about that.
Martin.

You and I suffer from the same disease . . . we tend to "over communicate"! What the Hell, I think it is better than under communicating - but some might disagree.

Always good to share ideas, experiences and knowledge - as best as we can.

B&S

[Bored&Stroked]

Boost Referenced Power Valves: Just a few more comments to add . . .

The whole purpose of the power-valve fuel circuit was to monitor the vacuum signals coming to the carb and when the vacuum saw a heavy drop (like when you're under heavy load), then the power-valve circuit would open up and enrichen the circuit. What makes this more complex for a blower (or even a multi-carbed setup) is getting the right power valve settings (they are based on vacuum numbers) for the particular engine, cam and induction system - so they match up.

When you 'boost reference' a power valve, you're basically using the boost to force the power valve open - such that it enrichens the fuel at the right time.

There are other methods that were used before boost-referencing (with Holley carbs)

a) Take the power valves out (especially in the secondaries) - then one puts in bigger jets. This results in a much richer fuel mixture - ALL the time. While this will prevent detonation at partial throttle (as it is rich), it does result in less power (at partial throttle) and poor gas mileage.

This is what most folks did for racing situations - as they cared about WOT the most and didn't want to lean it out under boost . . . so solve the problems with jetting and get the dang power valves out of the picture.

b) Put High Number Power Valves In: Which essentially causes them to open up any time the vacuum drops much at all. This is kind of a work-around . . . as like the bigger jets, just enrichens the fuel a lot more of the time and with the right numbered valve, you ensure it is open when you're under WOT.

The bad part of BOTH of the above methods is that you end up with a situation where the engine is overly rich . . . too much of the time. The whole purpose of the power-valves are to have a load-sensing method that delivers the extra fuel . . . only when needed.

C) Do Nothing - Use the Power Valves That Come in the Carbs: This would be the most common thing that somebody who didn't know how to tune would do. In the end, the power valves are not open when they should be . . . so the 'solution' would be changing jets until it was rich enough. The 'fix' would not help you at partial throttle, but as long as it was rich enough at WOT, then the motor would not be hurt.

[expavr]

"Take the power valves out (especially in the secondaries) - then one puts in bigger jets. This results in a much richer fuel mixture - ALL the time. While this will prevent detonation at partial throttle (as it is rich), it does result in less power (at partial throttle) and poor gas mileage.

This is what most folks did for racing situations - as they cared about WOT the most and didn't want to lean it out under boost . . . so solve the problems with jetting and get the dang power valves out of the picture."

I have this setup on a Holley 4150 blow thru carb which uses a boost referenced fuel pressure gauge to enriched the A/F mixture as boost increases and vacuum disappears. For the proposed use of this supercharger running 2#'s of boost on an essentially stock engine is detonation really an issue? Missing from this build discussion is the OEM cam design which I wouldn't think would have the right profile to take advantage of a supercharger. It seems like the cam profile should be the starting point in a discussion of putting a supercharger on any engine. JMO.

[Ol' Ron]

The stock cam works well with a blower on a stock engine. With the short ex timing, there is no blow down at low rpms and the small amt of boost you have at 1500-2000RPM does more work. For this reason I like the the Eaton by blower, which is what the Magnasom system uses. On the 294 engine we have 300Ft/lbs of torque at 3000. Yhis should make an interesting ride. Boost is limited to 5 lbs.

[jrvariel48]

The blower is sitting on an intake for an 8BA. Can I install this intake on a 59 motor?

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by expavr

I have this setup on a Holley 4150 blow thru carb which uses a boost referenced fuel pressure gauge to enriched the A/F mixture as boost increases and vacuum disappears.

Just as an FYI, the boost referenced fuel pressure regulator in a blow-through carb setup (which is what I think you meant to say) - doesn't enrichen the A/F mixture as it really has nothing to do with that. The 'boost referencing' in this case is so that the regulator can actually do it's job (regulate) when there is boost pressure inside the carb. (It needs to overcome the pressure - usually at a 1/1 ratio with boost lbs). Otherwise you can get into a situation where the float needle is open and the boost is pushing air BACK into the fuel line - not good.

On an EFI setup, the problem is much the same, the boost pressure in the manifold is "pushing back" on the fuel coming out of the injectors and fuel rails, so additional fuel pressure needs to be added to compensate for this.

In both cases, the boost referenced regulator isn't richening the A/F ratio - more like making sure the fuel supply is consistently available under all vacuum and pressure/boost situations.

Hope my babble makes some sense.

B&S

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

The blower is sitting on an intake for an 8BA. Can I install this intake on a 59 motor?

Yes, though you may want to revisit the crankcase ventilation setup of the 59AB - and change the 8BA intake to match (oil fill at the back, fuel pump stand and pump off a 59AB, plug the side mounted breather tube on the 8BA manifold).

This isn't a super big deal, plenty of guys have ran 32-48 manifolds on 49-53's - and visa-versa, but I believe the crankcase ventilation systems on both engines are designed to work a certain way - and one should consider the breathing differences between the two designs.

With that said - there has to be thousands of flatheads that swapped manifolds back and forth and didn't worry about the crankcase breathing . . . and they worked just fine.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Yes, though you may want to revisit the crankcase ventilation setup of the 59AB - and change the 8BA intake to match (oil fill at the back, fuel pump stand and pump off a 59AB, plug the side mounted breather tube on the 8BA manifold).

This isn't a super big deal, plenty of guys have ran 32-48 manifolds on 49-53's - and visa-versa, but I believe the crankcase ventilation systems on both engines are designed to work a certain way - and one should consider the breathing differences between the two designs.

With that said - there has to be thousands of flatheads that swapped manifolds back and forth and didn't worry about the crankcase breathing . . . and they worked just fine.

With putting the oil fill from a 59 onto the 8BA manifold, which fuel pump rod will work with this set-up?

Thank you,
Joe

[rotorwrench]

I think you will find it necessary to use an electric pump. I don't even know if a mechanical pump would fit back there with a blower on there plus a larger carb or duals may need a more positive flow. You can plug the push rod hole with an old bolt sized to fit the hole but not long enough to make any contact to the cam lobe.

[Fordors]

I think I recall seeing that blower for sale some time ago, didn't it have a cracked pulley? Were you able to locate a replacement? I think Camden sold off the design and rights to some other guy specializing in foreign cars.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I think you will find it necessary to use an electric pump. I don't even know if a mechanical pump would fit back there with a blower on there plus a larger carb or duals may need a more positive flow. You can plug the push rod hole with an old bolt sized to fit the hole but not long enough to make any contact to the cam lobe.

Rotowrench, thanks for responding. Will a pump be necessary if I decide to go with two Strombergs?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Fordors

I think I recall seeing that blower for sale some time ago, didn't it have a cracked pulley? Were you able to locate a replacement? I think Camden sold off the design and rights to some other guy specializing in foreign cars.

No cracks on the pulley that I can see.

[rotorwrench]

With two deuces you might want to use a dual port fuel manifold with a pressure regulator. An engine driven pump might do OK if it will fit but will be kind of out of place with the more modern equipment there. An electric pump usually does well if it's as close to the tank outlet as you can get to reduce the draw side to minimum. That way you would have a positive pressure most of the way up to a two port fuel manifold with regulator on the firewall. Many a dual and triple deuce carburetor arrangement have been set up this way over the years. 97 heaven has a photo of a four barrel carb adapter to twin 97s on their site but I don't know if it's a bolt up to what you have or not. Chances are good that it is. Bolt up stuff makes life simpler for sure.

[jrvariel48]

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench

With two deuces you might want to use a dual port fuel manifold with a pressure regulator. An engine driven pump might do OK if it will fit but will be kind of out of place with the more modern equipment there. An electric pump usually does well if it's as close to the tank outlet as you can get to reduce the draw side to minimum. That way you would have a positive pressure most of the way up to a two port fuel manifold with regulator on the firewall. Many a dual and triple deuce carburetor arrangement have been set up this way over the years. 97 heaven has a photo of a four barrel carb adapter to twin 97s on their site but I don't know if it's a bolt up to what you have or not. Chances are good that it is. Bolt up stuff makes life simpler for sure.

Thank you for the info!

[Ol' Ron]

Veen using an electric pump onmy engines for the past 50 years. I feel they are more reliable. (Don't buy by price.)

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Veen using an electric pump onmy engines for the past 50 years. I feel they are more reliable. (Don't buy by price.)

Ron, could you tell me which unit you use and it's reliability?
Thanks,
Joe

[Bored&Stroked]

A mechanical pump will definitely handle the job, the bigger question comes down to ease of starting and reliability. If you don't drive the call all the time, one of the challenges with mechanical pumps is that the fuel evaporates out of the carbs (especially in a hot garage), then you have to crank the heck out of the engine to get fuel into the carbs - which isn't exactly easy on your starter. Having an electric fuel pump back by the tank, sure makes it easier to start. Also, the last thing you want with a blower is too little fuel and then a backfire into the blower - even with a pop-off valve, you can surely hurt the blower.

[jrvariel48]

Is there any way to tell if the carb is boost referenced? Since it came with the blower set up, I'm wondering. It was built in the 1990 was something that was done then?

[jrvariel48]

Anyone on this topic??

[Fordors]

If it is a boost referenced p/v then there will be a hose or tubing connecting the carburetor to the intake manifold. Without that connection the carb cannot see boost and the subsequent loss of vacuum in the intake. I have two 600 Holleys on a 6-71, not boost referenced and my blower is kinda loose and I run 15% underdrive. With a vacuum gauge connected to the carb adapter it always pulls vacuum, but on the other hand the vac/boost gauge connected to the manifold shows vacuum with part throttle operation but when you give it some throttle it quickly goes to boost. My particular combination is fine not boost referenced, but your results may vary.

[BUBBAS IGNITION]

the crab distributor will retard using the vacuum brake . As boost is applied it will push the brake into the retard position.....nice feature.......run it........

[scooder]

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

the crab distributor will retard using the vacuum brake . As boost is applied it will push the brake into the retard position.....nice feature.......run it........

That can be said of regular vacuum advance ignitions, can't it? If plumbed below the blower, at light throttle you'd get vacuum added ignition advance, when in boost the vacuum can Will see pressure the diaphragm and/or the points plate spring will retard the timing back to the mechanical timing.
I've often wondered why that setup is not used. If you build your mechanical advance so it's limit is where you want it under boost, then plop a vacuum can on to add advance wanted at light throttle no boost area? Is that just to simple? Seems to me to be a bunch cheaper than a boost retard electrickery box. But then I'm not into all that electronic nonsense on a car. If that boost retard Box goes pop, what happens? Does it just not retard? That could be a engine nightmare under boost. If the vacuum can diaphragm goes pop, your timing goes safe to the retard position, if the vacuum line comes off, same thing. Sounds a bunch safer on engine parts.
So am I missing something here? If so, could someone explain why my idea is no good please.
Really like to get an answer on this.
Martin.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Is there any way to tell if the carb is boost referenced? Since it came with the blower set up, I'm wondering. It was built in the 1990 was something that was done then?

If you go through Joe abbins book, he doesn't use boost reference carbs. I get the reasoning for boost reference, it's the better way of doing this, it's been done both ways.
And as earlier reply, if your carb was boost referenced, they would be an external line from the carb to below the blower.
Martin.

[Fordors]

When I built my blown engine I was lucky enough to locate a NOS Accel vacuum/boost advance canister. Originally intended for Accel's bolt-on turbo kit it works just as well with my blower; boost is boost. I believe, but do not know for sure, that the canister is made different internally compared to a GM unit. It provides advance as a normal one, but it also retards a total of 8° when at boost. The difference is that it will actually retard the timing, not just pull it back to the "no advance" position.

[scooder]

Did you hear that pin drop from over the ocean? It was pretty loud here I can tell you.
I've been thinking of an engine under cruise (high vacuum) and then under boost (nailing the loud pedal) completely ignored the stuff in between!
Its all about the in between stuff, with that realised, I can see the use of a graduated retard device. I'd really like the idea of the chaps you have, much prefer the "mechanical" stuff over electronic stuff. I believe some of the 70's And 80's turbo stuff used a setup like yours, just can't remember what ones.
In my defense, the cruise or nailing it is how I drive a hot dog, hence me missing the in between stuff.
Thanks for that,
Martin.

[solidaxle]

What are your plans for pulleys? Serpentine or V-belt? Ether way some or all will need to be fabed. Like Ron said, you need to consider gearing and overdrive the blower to achieve the boost you are looking for.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by solidaxle

What are your plans for pulleys? Serpentine or V-belt? Ether way some or all will need to be fabed. Like Ron said, you need to consider gearing and overdrive the blower to achieve the boost you are looking for.

It came with the blower, crank and idler pulleys. No water pump pulleys.
The belt is a serpentine 7 groove I believe.

[jrvariel48]

I opened up the carb today to see what jets and power valve were installed.
I found 68 jets and a 4.5 power valve. I will be boost referencing the carb.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...tor-for-boost/
Can anyone comment on this jet and pv set up for a starting point?
I know this carb was sold from Camden with the blower and intake as a complete package, but i don't know what jets and pv. At this point I'd be assuming and we all know how that usually turns out!!
Thanks,
Joe

[Fordors]

Jets and PV are for sure going to be a subjective issue, I'd say try it as is and evaluate the results. Strictly apples and oranges but I run two 600 Holleys with direct linkage on my OT engine with 68's on the primary side, 65 power valves and secondary metering plates drilled to .093. Just took a stab in the dark and haven't changed it since built; maybe it could be better, but it runs good so I never messed with it.

[solidaxle]

Scooder mentioned Roadrunner Engineering. Here's the link. Lots of info http://www.roadrunnerengineering.com/About.html.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION

the crab distributor will retard using the vacuum brake . As boost is applied it will push the brake into the retard position.....nice feature.......run it........

Should I get the vacuum from the intake or from the carb base?

Does it make a difference?

Thanks,
Joe

[scooder]

Below the blower so it will sence boost.
Martin.

[mustang8]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Ron, could you tell me which unit you use and it's reliability?
Thanks,
Joe

Joe I used a k and n electric fuel pump on my 8ba build a couple years back, don't remember the exact model but it was a very low flow unit.

[Bored&Stroked]

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Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I opened up the carb today to see what jets and power valve were installed.
I found 68 jets and a 4.5 power valve.
Joe

What about the secondary side? Or . . . the same on both?

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

What about the secondary side? Or . . . the same on both?

I'm going to look today. I will boost referenced the carb following the direction of this link.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...tor-for-boost/

[jrvariel48]

The secondary side has a metering plate, no jets. From what I've read, it's equal to a 69 jet

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by mustang8

Joe I used a k and n electric fuel pump on my 8ba build a couple years back, don't remember the exact model but it was a very low flow unit.

Thanks for the info! After some research, I'm going to try a Facet pump with an inertia switch and an on/off switch at the dash.

[JSeery]

You can also use an oil pressure switch on the circuit. That will only allow the pump to run when there is oil pressure (there is a built in by-pass for starting). I like the safety of both, this is how almost all modern electric fuel pump systems are connected.

You might find this article interesting: http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/...fuel-pump.html

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by JSeery

You can also use an oil pressure switch on the circuit. That will only allow the pump to run went there is oil pressure (there is a built in by-pass for starting). I like the safety of both, this is how almost all modern electric fuel pump systems are connected.

You might find this article interesting: http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/...fuel-pump.html

Very informative! Thank you

[jrvariel48]

And so it begins!

[corvette8n]

Looks like a fun project.