An original vs. reproduction ignition key comparison - and MARC judging comment

[WardAZ]

I recently received the blue ribbon judging score sheets from the San Diego MARC meet. After reviewing how each area on my vehicle was scored; I have to comment on what a superb job the judging crews did at this meet. As some may know, the scoring process has been expanded to a 5000 point system and then the total score is divided by 10 to yield the score on a 500 point scale. This allows for a very comprehensive assessment, and many helpful and constructive comments are included on the scoring pages. This really helps identify things that can be corrected, and it also provides a wealth of information that can be used on any future restoration of individual parts or a whole vehicle.

Anyway, here is an example of something I was made aware of - which I have been totally unaware of since I restored the car 14 years ago. I found out that I have one original ignition key and one reproduction key. I had picked up this pair of keys many years ago and didn't take a second look, thinkiing both were NOS. I think I know which one is the original but perhaps someone can confirm and point out the way to spot the repro, especially if you do not have an original key handy to compare to. -- Ward

[azmodela]

The one on the right is the reproduction, the original on the left. What do I win?

The reproduction was machine cut originally these were press type cuts.
Also,the grooves that run the length of the key were done when the key was actually made, not later cut into the blank as shown on the reproduction.

[peters180a/170b]

the thin one is original because A+L's are a little fatter.And also the original key is smaller all around. And the keys were cut first and then plated. How does that grab ya. And i don't think A+L Parts stamped the numbers on the repro key.Looks like someone else did.Unless A+L went to better numbers in the last 2 years.? I had A+L stamp some n.o.s. keys for me and the numbers are closer to original then the one you have.Look at the number 3. same as spark plugs .Round top [original ] flat top [repro]...l.o.l. A+L's are the same as original 3.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Ok, now I'm going to mess you up! The one on the right is the "real deal". All my keys have the rippled machine marks along the keyways. This likely also explains why there is some cosmetic damage to the "older" key.

Now here is the dead giveaway for me when keys are NOS. The large flat areas of the head of the key have a special look on new original keys. There is a very fine pattern stamped into that area of the key on both sides. The result of that pattern is what I'll call a glistening reflection for lack a better description. This special reflection is clearly evident on both sides of the key on the right even with the subtle scratches on one side. To me that is the most important feature.

[700rpm]

Whew! I would have said the key on the left was the original just based on the quality of the number stamp. This judging business is getting pretty particular, bordering on anal retentive! What next? The thickness of the paint on the fenders? The number of threads per inch in the upholstery? Fingerprints on the brightwork? Or are we already there?

[foxfire42]

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I just read both the 1997 and the 2011 JS's Area 6 I didn't see any description in the text that would help a restorer determine which key is original if they had a set like WardAZ. So, what did the judges use as a reference to determine one was a reproduction key?

[dean from bozeman]

Foxfire 42, hear you. Not everything can be put into the judging standards. Also, it takes years of examing parts to pick up on those little idiosyncrasies.

Just these two keys have brought out various opinions and I'd like to see more examples. Now if the JS can't be put on CD (I won't go there) why not put dozens of examples on the Internet so we all can learn. A lot of people are smarter than me and can pick up things right away. I need repetition. How about Internet tutorials based on the JS?

How about more key examples for now?

By the way, you coin guys can correct me but that"glistening reflection" I believe is called pinwheeling in the coin world.

[WardAZ]

Thanks for the comments, a little over-the-borderline anal retentiveness is fine with me.

I think one of the keys was judged reproduction simply because the number stampings did not match. Had either key been matched up with another just like it, I can't imagine it would have been possible to judge them both reproductions. I raided my stash of NOS keys and most, but not all, match the key on the right. I don't believe either key above is an A&L, because I have never purchased a key from them, and all of the stuff I have was purchased at swap meets in the early to mid 70s. I could be that Fordgarage is correct that both are genuine... and the one on the left could be an era correct replacement.

I see the texture/reflection on the indented surface of the key on the right as Marco describes. Also all of my known NOS keys have the rippled machining, either slight or pronounced along the keyway.

If anyone has a picture of an A&L key I'd like to compare it just for curiosity.

[Rowdy]

Here are the keys I have. Not all are original. Might get better pic's tommorrow. Rod

[Roadster62]

I'm voting for the key on the left in photo one, the numbers are consistant. Now I'll read the other replies.

[foxfire42]

I got this set of keys with a NOS cylinder while heading to Hershey in the mid 80's. I actually found it in an old old locksmith shop somewhere in a small town in the midwest. The propriator dug through boxes in the back and came out with one 30/31 and two 28/29 cylinders with 2 keys each. I passed on the 51 Studebaker trunk handle and lock he thought I should also buy.

Based on the posts these are repro's? I'm sure this locksmith had them buried in his back room for many years so they aren't A & L's

[WardAZ]

Wow, I am going to have to set aside some of the assumptions I had made about my two keys. I do know that Marco is usually correct in these matters, but so is Vince.

I will mention that my key on the left has a nickel plated key cuts, the one on the right shows brass on the cuts.

Here is an example of key 828, which I believe to be NOS. It is nickel plated on the cut edge. An old stock uncut example on the right.

[WardAZ]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

Based on the posts these are repro's? I'm sure this locksmith had them buried in his back room for many years so they aren't A & L's

Your keys are look very much the same as a set I have. The numbering is identical on both keys, so it was not likely hand stamped by a locksmith. The keys look NOS, purchased in the early 70s, and the cut edge shows brass.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

I got this set of keys with a NOS cylinder while heading to Hershey in the mid 80's. I actually found it in an old old locksmith shop somewhere in a small town in the midwest. The propriator dug through boxes in the back and came out with one 30/31 and two 28/29 cylinders with 2 keys each. I passed on the 51 Studebaker trunk handle and lock he thought I should also buy.

Based on the posts these are repro's? I'm sure this locksmith had them buried in his back room for many years so they aren't A & L's

Now this set of keys is interesting! Obviously NOS, but the two sixes in the 66 at the end do not match in type (font) style!!! So much for the "correct type-style" theory. Somebody 'splain that.

[WardAZ]

Fordgarage mentioned one of the distinquishing features of original keys was the "hollow shape of the tip". Perhaps Vince will check back and explain. Is it the slightly curved inward shape at the location of the arrow in this picture?

[foxfire42]

MikeK, I would have thought those #1466 were NOS too if only based on how I acquired them. BUT! the judges in San Diego don't agree. They marked the sheet RP keys. At least it sounds like they were consistant about looking closely at all the keys. That makes it fair to all. Like the judging phiosophy says "If there are mistakes - - and there will certainly be mistakes- - they are the same mistakes for all of us"

[Larry Seemann]

Is it possible that both keys are originals, but from different "batches"? Surely all of the keys with the same number weren't made at the same time considering the millions of keys and the limited number of key numbers.

[Big John]

If we have to worry about key correctness, maybe we should worry about repro fenders, bumpers, etc . and other repro parts, in judging a 1000 pt car... all of the rerpro items are not correct then... including, paint, stripe, on and on... no matter how nice the repro ... repro is still repro.....

[Richard in Anaheim CA]

There were 15 cars judged in the fine point judging in San Diego. Thats pretty typical of a national meet even though hundreds of members attend each meet.

I participated in tour class judging which had about 43 cars judged and was correctly docked for wrong stipe color yet given all the points for wheel color which was the same. The same car with same paint received "all the marbles" at a previous national MARC meet.

You guys enjoy this thread. I enjoyed the weather, the tour, the great people, looking at the cars in the parking lot, the mexican dinner in olde town and the drive home up the coast. Wanna see my key? I had it made at Home Depot.

Richard

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by Big John

If we have to worry about key correctness, maybe we should worry about repro fenders, bumpers, etc . and other repro parts, in judging a 1000 pt car... all of the rerpro items are not correct then... including, paint, stripe, on and on... no matter how nice the repro ... repro is still repro.....

We do worry about repop parts no matter where they are located. If it can be determined that it is repop, it won't garner full points. In the case of the keys my guess would be (and it is only a swag) that the judges saw two keys that weren't identical, one is probably repop. Which is which? It doesn't matter one is, one isn't. The big thing to remember when doing a car for fine point...don't make the judges make a decision. Make it as black and white as possible. Present two keys with different font numbers, slightly different shape, slightly different plating (the differences mentioned so far) and the judges have to make a decision on repop or not....fwiw,jm