'31 Murray Body Number Plates

[Tudortomnz]

This has been an interesting discussion on Canadian 3W fordors & we probably all know a little more.
I still am thinking the the wood floor stamped letter& #'s, and lack of any US Murray body tag strongly indicates these sedans were built up in Canada ; some individual stamped panels may have come in from Detroit.
I have a few Canadian stamped #'s from these Standard & Town sedans & they follow the standard Ford practise used in Nth America in that era.I do not think they are random stamped letters or done outside the plant.

They are either 3F [ stylised f like Ford script] for 155C town sedan & 5F for the 165C standard 3W fordors. 5F 434 was an early '30 165C owned by my father ; he also had 5F 1584 which was rego'd new here Aug. 16 '30 but had the early '30 tank & oval speedo.
5F 1677 is a late '30 standard with the ribbed dash & round speedo & 3F 3240 was rego'd new here in early 1931 ; the chronology is obvious.
All other Canadian Ontario plant letters & #'s seen on New Zealand Model A's are as per US system eg. F4- 17035 [ my late '29 Tudor], 1F 7905 [ 1931 Coupe], 4F 5964 [ 1931 Tudor] but they reflect the low production runs of the Canadian lines. 'F' was the stamp letter used by Ontario [ Ford City] since late Model T production. F was also the Ford Detroit letter, but I believe there is a size difference between the two & Canadian production #'s are much lower as would be expected.

Also ,Ford Australia was a wholly owned subsidary of Ford Canada & they provided the tooling & machinary for the updated Model A Factory at Geelong. This factory was building Model A bodies from 1928[ & using woodframes in roadsters & phaetons!]then from 1930 were stamping metal panels [ not fenders, hoods, tanks etc] for the 3W fordors, roadsters, phaetons, spt coupe plus many commercial types not seen in Nth America.Surely Canada was doing similar at its own main plant at Ford [Windsor] Ontario.?They were getting the govt. subsidies & tax rebates to do as much as possible within Canada & the whole Ford Canada enterprise only worked due to its large export markets in world British Dominions.

[Bick in New Zealand]

This thread, is why I enjoy Fordbarn, so much. I have spent most of my spare time recently reading, talking to people and generally trying to make some sense of what was happening on the Canadian assembly lines during the early thirties.
Canada, like all members of the British Commonwealth had plenty of import regulations to protect their own industries, and like the rest, the motor vehicle industry was no different, encouraging as much local content and labour as they could.( this is fairly obvious from the different component manufacturers used on the Canadian Model A). If you are going to go to the trouble to make your own copy of the motor, body construction would be no more difficult. After the Briggs 60A,B,&C Murray bodies were used with the introduction of the 155 series. I have been told but am unable to verify it that Murray provided all the jigs for Murray body assembly in Canada. I have also been told that Murray had a financial interest in the Canadian Top and Body Corporation. CTBC. was no small concern producing 100 Closed car bodies a day in 1928 for a number of companies. They continued making bodies for Ford Canada through to 1934. (Of interest the CTBC produced 3w and cabriolet bodies were also used by Hupmobile and sold in the 'Colonies')
Briggs produced the 29-31 cabriolet bodies, but in 1932 they were produced by Motor and Coach of Chatham Ont. I would be interested to know who built the 68C (slant screen) cabriolets in Canada. Until further information comes to light we will continue to discuss this with vigour and enthusiasm and form our own opinions accordingly.
Body Tag photo courtesy of Ian Staples

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

If you are going to go to the trouble to make your own copy of the motor, body construction would be no more difficult.

Suggesting those were "copies" is like suggesting fenders made at the Long Beach plant were "copies" of those made at the Rouge. In reality both examples were simply Ford products made in different locations.

I have been told but am unable to verify it that Murray provided all the jigs for Murray body assembly in Canada. I have also been told that Murray had a financial interest in the Canadian Top and Body Corporation.

I considered the idea that Murray had direct connection but haven't found anything to support the idea.

What folks don't understand is that Murray bodies were not simply assembled from a pile of pre-manufactured parts but much of the wood was finished (machined) to size DURING the assembly process so the finished overall dimensions of the sum of the parts would fit the steel skins.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Suggesting those were "copies" is like suggesting fenders made at the Long Beach plant were "copies" of those made at the Rouge. In reality both examples were simply Ford products made in different locations.


I agree, "copies" was a bad choice of word, what I meant was building a body in a different location was no more difficult that building an engine from scratch using local suppliers for parts.

What folks don't understand is that Murray bodies were not simply assembled from a pile of pre-manufactured parts but much of the wood was finished (machined) to size DURING the assembly process so the finished overall dimensions of the sum of the parts would fit the steel skins.

I agree totally, with you on this, as Ford Canada had the knowledge and materials to build closed cars, the construction of the 155 series would not have been too difficult to solve especially with Murray Expertise and input just over the border.

[Bick in New Zealand]

Interesting post Vince, I have a friend here in NZ who has a Canadian manufactured RHD 1923 Gray sedan. It has wooden spoke wheels and looks very much like its Model T counterpart.
The intereresting thing about Canadian Top & Body is they produced the Deluxe Coupe and Victorias in 1932 but not the 400B.

[Marco Tahtaras]

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Originally Posted by Bick in New Zealand

Interesting post Vince, I have a friend here in NZ who has a Canadian manufactured RHD 1923 Gray sedan. It has wooden spoke wheels and looks very much like its Model T counterpart.
The intereresting thing about Canadian Top & Body is they produced the Deluxe Coupe and Victorias in 1932 but not the 400B.

The big question is, have you seen either? The point being is did it look and match up to the U.S. models or are were they different. There was nothing to say they had to have any relation to U'S. production or be anything like ours just like Australian Fordors were unique to their needs and economic situation although they were a reasonable facsimile of our models. I haven't yet found a "body type" number for the Australian Fordor. Just because Ford of Canada called one model a "Deluxe Coupe" doesn't mean it was anything like ours. Folks tend to make assumptions based on model names.

[Bick in New Zealand]

I have seen several '32 Deluxe Coupes here, and one '32 Victoria that were NZ cars from new and they appear to be identical to their US Counterparts.
I have just returned from a Club run and intended to take some photos of the local Murray bodied 155 series cars for your perusal but unfortunately the battery was flat in my camera. However I will get some taken for you to compare.
Blue '32 and tag photo courtesy Ian Staples

[Bick in New Zealand]

Here are some random local '30 Murray Sedans I had on file

[mpalilonis]

My '31 SW drivers side frame rail reads 15F453. Would either of you be able to tell me anything from that? Oh, and the entire car is built using all Robertson screws.

Mike

[Tudortomnz]

Canadian assembled s/w Sedan. We did not get the s/w 's here new but I have seen photos on the 'net of a Canadian s/w '31 RHD in Sth Africa which had ''15F with a following low number.

[mpalilonis]

Do you happen to know what was the assembly range of "15F"? After reading your post last night i went and looked at my car and did not find the body tag on my car anywhere. Although the firewall tag does say Ford Canada.

[Bick in New Zealand]

15F was the designation Ford Canada gave to the 160A standard fordor. They made 1374 standard fordors in 1931, how many were 160As (Slant screen) as opposed to the 155C (Straight screen) is unknown at this stage.
I have only seen body tags on those that were built in the US and sent as a complete body unit.

[Tudortomnz]

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Do you happen to know what was the assembly range of "15F"? After reading your post last night i went and looked at my car and did not find the body tag on my car anywhere. Although the firewall tag does say Ford Canada.

You are lucky if your car has the Canadian data plate. They stopped putting them on after 1928, but I am not sure about the later '31's as there are not many here in NZ.
As Bick says, ''15'' refers to the s/w fordors & ''F'' denotes the Ontario Plant at East Windsor.
Most Canadian assembled bodies I have seen here only carry stamped Ontario body numbers but no attached tags as seen on US assembled cars.
Any chance of putting up a photo?
Tom

[mpalilonis]

I think you might have misread my previous post. As I do NOT have the body tag on the firewall. All I have is the frame stamp. Here is the body stamping in the metal frame rail just under the drivers seat. The wood at the top of the picture is to the access panel for the battery.
PHOTO 2_crop.jpg

Engine Number #CAS9506...built sometime in the last week of May '31 or first week of June '31.
PHOTO 1_crop.jpg

1931 SW Town Sedan - Canadian Model (Robertson Screws Throughout)
PHOTO 3_crop.jpg

[Tudortomnz]

Thanks for posting the photos. Nice car! Probably the most comfortable & roomy Model A made.
The engine colour looks grey? I believe the very early & the last Canadian engines were sometimes finished in grey.
Tom

[mpalilonis]

Tom the engine is a bit weak in the paint department, faded green... But that's interesting about your comment about the grey color in '31. Do you have any pictures showing a grey motor? Do you know what the end of the engine run is for the Canadian cars that would have had that color? If its suppose to be gray, I'll have it done that way when I pop it out.

[160B]

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Tom the engine is a bit weak in the paint department, faded green... But that's interesting about your comment about the grey color in '31. Do you have any pictures showing a grey motor? Do you know what the end of the engine run is for the Canadian cars that would have had that color? If its suppose to be gray, I'll have it done that way when I pop it out.

According to the Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards area 1 supplemented by the section for Canadian Model A’s. Area 1 page F-2 under engine (left side) “ All engine components of a Model “A” manufactured in Canada were either Ford Engine Green or ford engine Gray.”

[mpalilonis]

Thanks.. Does it say anything about which color was painted when? I would assume the transmission would match the engine color.

[160B]

Originally Posted by mpalilonis

Thanks.. Does it say anything about which color was painted when? I would assume the transmission would match the engine color.

The Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards do not provide any other information.

[Bick in New Zealand]

The transmission colour would match the engine. My understanding is that only those cars produced in the Western provinces were painted gray and that this occurred throughout production. Unfortunately it is difficult to distinguish gray / green on original black and white photos.