Art vs. History

[Old Henry]

In the car show last Saturday Old Henry was assigned to spend the day next to this Ford "Truck":



And, where do you think people mostly congregated? Not around Old Henry nor that totally authentic Model A on the other side. They swarmed over the Ford "Truck".

When I first started going to car shows (way before I restored Old Henry) I was personally attracted to the authentically restored cars much more than the customized or rodded ones. And, there seemed to be way more of the non-authentic customized and rodded ones than the totally authentic restorations. I thought a lot about it and finally figured out why it was - more people are attracted to Art than to History. A truly authentic restoration really is a piece of history and a view into the past. I like to call Old Henry my "Time Machine" that takes me back to the 40's every time I get behind his wheel. On the other hand, it seems more want to ignore the historicality of the old classics and turn them into their own creative piece of art. I had two brother cousins (one has gone on) that were totally opposite that way. One was obsessively meticulous down to thread counts in the upholstery in restoring his cars authentically whereas his brother (as he said at his funeral) saw an old car as an "Artist's Pallet" to shape and mold into his own creative creation.

What do you think? Is there really a greater interest in vehicles that are some kind of creative piece of Art (like the Ford "Truck" next to Old Henry) as I perceive or more that are interested in the restorations that are a piece of History?

[cmbrucew]

Prof
I should hope there will always be room for both. Both are AMERICAN IRON.
Bruce

[flatford8]

I enjoy both although I appreciate a car that is driven more than just a museum piece...Mark

[ford38v8]

Well, Professor, once again you have hit the nail squarely on the head. I had never thought of the issue in quite that light before, and had simply stuck up my nose at the modern iron hot rods. I agree with your observation, having been among the throngs myself at one thursday nite show when a particularly obscene rat rod came rolling noisily in. The "Art" was the thing, everyone had to see every detail, pointing and laughing with it, not at it. I loved it too.

[BILL WZOREK]

Just a thought as we travel about How many Stock / original cars have we seen broke down on the side of the road,Vs. how many RAT RODS ?????
Each has its place ~
I enjoy cars that are as original & also enjoy the ones that all the parts go into a blender and we see we we can make out of it. ~mixed brands and all~ As long as they don't take a running car to create there ART,
When you look close there is a lot of creativity in some.

[PeteVS]

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I don't really wonder which will be the first to go to the crusher on its way to China only to return as a GM car which will be recalled. One will admired for a long time. The other is only admired by its builder. If someone else admires it, they'll probably want to build one themselves rather than buy an existing one.

[Tim Ayers]

Well, I think your use of the term of art is appropriate. Here's an example of something in the relates to this topic. In the mid-90's, early 2000's, British artist Damien Hirst was putting sawn in 1/2 cow bodies, skinned lambs and whole sharks into plexiglass boxes. The objects would float in some type of preservative fluid.

The art world immediately divided into two camps: Love or hate. Regardless of which side you were on, it was very hard to resist staring at his work.

I view these radical hot rods (dare I say the term Rat Rod) along the same lines. It may not be your cup of tea, but there are only so many landscape stills (in this case a "stock" car) one can look at before the eye is drawn to something different.

Art or human nature, not sure, but as they say, art is in the eye of the beholder.

[Vic Piano]

It all comes down to "different strokes for different folks". Just like they used to tell us in Art Appreciation class in HS, its not the presentation, its the interpretation...

[Bassman/NZ]

This is a can of worms. Not the restoration vs the hot rod, but rather the hot rod vs the rat rod. To many, they are one and the same thing, but nothing could be further from the truth. The truck in the pic is a rat rod. A rat rod is a collection of rusty parts thrown together with extremely dubious engineering practices, and scant regard for aesthetics and design. There is very, very little in the way of art involved. A hot rod is a well thought out vehicle constructed with good engineering practices, much thought and consideration given to stance, flow, proportions, colour scheme and reference to tradition.
Therefore, I question the use of the term "art" in relation to the rat rod. Any dimwit numbskull can throw a collection of worn-out, rusty, mismatched articles together with some highly dubious bird-poop welding. This does not make it art. Due to the dumbing down of a very large section of modern society, most of whom would prefer the spanish lady painted on black velvet to the Mona Lisa, it is unfortunately the case that a piece of crap gets more attention than a fine vehicle.
If the vehicle parked next to Old Henry had of been the Bishop/Tardel hot rod, Pat Ganahl's hot rod, or a Brizio built hot rod, I would say yes, this is art vs history.

[Bassman/NZ]

Further to my post above, my 1928 Model A is a hot rod. Unfortunately, most of Joe Public, and many hot-rodders, call it a rat rod by virtue of the fact it has a flathead engine. Never mind that I've spent more money on the flathead than I could have bought a crate 350 Chev, to them it's a rat rod.

[Ford46]

Alright may I add my 2 cents to this? Let me state right off I am no fan of rat rods, although I commend the builders for using parts and pieces that would otherwise probably rot away or be brought to a salvage yard. What offends me most, is the haphazard way many of these "vehicles" are put together. Many of them a sane person wouldn't drive across their backyard. I also agree "whatever floats your boat" perhaps I'm jealous of the use of a perfectly good flathead or GMC 6 to power one of them. Bassman/NZ has a point many spectators have no inkling of what they are looking at and always seems to be attracted to the bizarre, perhaps because it's "different"?

[Vic Piano]

I don't think I would classify something as a "Rat Rod" because it gave the appearance of being thrown together and was powered by a Flathead... I've seen plenty of "Rat Rod's" with other power plants, like Nailhead Buicks, early Chrysler Hemi's, Chevy 348's, 409's, 327's, Ford 292's, 312's, Studebaker 259's & 289's... And the list goes on... I don't particularly care for what most call "Rat Rods", but that's my choice. Build what you want to build and drive what you want to drive, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[sidevalve8ba]

There are fads that come and go in the hot rod world. In my opinion rat rods are one of those fads. As far as how well built they are I have seen a few that are well engineered but they are in the minority.

I have restored cars and I have built hot rods. I like them both. To me driving them is what counts. I have a good friend that built a rat rod of sorts a couple of years ago. He was very gung-ho about it until he took it on a few road trips. He has since built a sedan that is much more "highway friendly".

[Steves46]

Who cares? Build, drive, and enjoy whatever you fancy. Car shows or any other related venues should be about having fun with fellow enthusiasts, not who's car gets the most attention.

[sidevalve8ba]

Originally Posted by Steves46

Who cares? Build, drive, and enjoy whatever you fancy. Car shows or any other related venues should be about having fun with fellow enthusiasts, not who's car gets the most attention.

Well said.

[millersgarage]

There is a dream factor to these cars, by the general public. Many show goers are not car builders, but can look at a "rat rod" and see something that they could build.

Many are built for the shock factor, and crowd always goes wild for that, just like muffler rap and burn out contests.

Now for my opinion that may or may not be liked.... our world is slowly becoming a slob nation, look at the TV shows. Many glorify the redneck/hillbilly/unkempt lifestyle, and these vehicles represent that. Rust, grease, dirt, real or fake, are all looked at as badges of honor nowdays. The well dressed and clean cars are a different social-economic level.

[Vic Piano]

I don't necessarily agree with your last statement, I've seen "car people" that have restored cars and hot rods and/or rat rods, side by side in their garage. If anything, I would suggest that those "different" cars bridge the gap between social & economic standings.

I do agree with Steves46, drive what you like, to each his own.

[sidevalve8ba]

This is a photo taken of a "car person's" garage last year. I think they get along pretty well

[51 MERC-CT]

Should be titled ' History vs. History' . Just a modern day interperatation of what we had to do back then.
With little or no funds we had to beg or 'borrow' the conglomeration of parts needed to assemble a street drivable vehicle
( not too much unlike the one in the photo and all powered by flatheads )
If given the choice for free of the three vehicles mentioned, guess which one that I would pick.

[Seth Swoboda]

Henry, That is why I don't go to car shows anymore. They are full of scrap heaps like that abortion you had to park next too. "Rat Rods" are for people who can't afford even some kind of a paint job. Now a traditional hot rod is something I like to look at. A Rat Rod, that's the biggest load of crap ever contrived.

[Old Henry]

Just to establish that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, here are two of the most expensive sculptures in the world:

La Grue, that sold for $19,193,000.00



Walking man that sold for $104,327,000.00



See any resemblance between these and "Rat Rods"?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Should be titled ' History vs. History' .

Or, "The Broad Spectrum of Art". The Ford designers that created the aesthetic beauty of the original Fords were also "artists" and, when each new model came out, it was hoped that at least some customers would call it a "Work of Art". I think each of the original models was such and that, rather than recreating it, I have just restored the 1947 version of the piece of art.

So, each vehicle is a combination of art and history.

[Vic Piano]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Just to establish that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, here are two of the most expensive sculptures in the world:

La Grue, that sold for $19,193,000.00



Walking man that sold for $104,327,000.00



See any resemblance between these and "Rat Rods"?

Yes, I do see a resemblance, as each is an interpretation from the artists. Weather building a Custom car, street rod, rat rod or fashioning a sculpture from ones "minds eye", they are all individual expressions. Restoring a car to its original condition is commendable however, in my opinion, it lacks imagination and completely sanitizes any individualism, to set it apart, it would be like Picasso taking a photo of a nude, instead of expressing it on canvas in his own way. We all know that the automotive aftermarket grew out of the desire to set your car apart from others and make your own statement. Art is everywhere and in everything, just as beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

[Torchie]

Originally Posted by Seth Swoboda

Henry, That is why I don't go to car shows anymore. They are full of scrap heaps like that abortion you had to park next too. "Rat Rods" are for people who can't afford even some kind of a paint job. Now a traditional hot rod is something I like to look at. A Rat Rod, that's the biggest load of crap ever contrived.

I normaly don't weigh in on the Rat rod vs hot rod vs restored but oh well....
The term Rat rod just like many things in our culture has become overused and cliche'd
For any one that thinks that all Rat Rods are just junk thrown together with crappy welds and not enough money to paint, I would suggest visiting some of the RR sites out there. Most of these builders make their own chassis. The quality of the welding and workmanship is very high. Many are running very sophisticated front and rear suspensions. Many Fabricate their own parts and use very interesting engines such as Diesels and Propane fueled V-8.
And most of them start off sheet metal that most restorers would not haul home for scrap.
The fact that they prefer to not paint their cars should not be mistaken as a lack of ability to paint their cars.
Of course their will always be the ones that look like cartoons but that too is a personal choice.
We all have a reason why we like/restore/hot rod/ rat rod/ old cars. We all want something different than what everybody in this cookie cutter world has. I for one aplaud that
Now I'll get off the soap box......
Torchie.

[russcc]

To each his own. Henry that is an awesome paint job. Is that maroon ? I can't tell from the photo. If so, what did Ford call it. Thank you. Your travel posts are unsurpassed.

[Brian]

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"I don’t know much about history, and I wouldn’t give a nickel for all the history in the world. It means nothing to me. History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we make today." the REAL old Henry!

[Jeff/Illinois]

That thing doesn't even look safe to operate on the highway. I've seen plenty of these built by somebody who had no business doing this.

A certified journeyman- welder is always interesting to listen to as they examine these 'builds'!!!!!!

[V8COOPMAN]

Here's some well-engineered rat rod "art" to consider, as it hopefully steers AROUND you and your family out on the road. DD

[Gary in La.]

I think TORCHIE said it best!

[cmbrucew]

DD
Best use of a chinese end wrench I've ever seen.
Still would not trust it.
Bruce

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by russcc

To each his own. Henry that is an awesome paint job. Is that maroon ? I can't tell from the photo. If so, what did Ford call it. Thank you. Your travel posts are unsurpassed.

I told MAACO that painted it to match the original Monsoon Maroon color and this is what I got. It is very good paint as far as I'm concernced, especially for the price (but what do I know) but looks many different colors in different lights from chocolate brown, to maroon, to eggplant, to black depending on the light and time of day.

P.S. Thanks for mentioning the travel posts. I'll have a new one next week of driving "The Million Dollar Highway", an All American Road in Colorado.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

That thing doesn't even look safe to operate on the highway. I've seen plenty of these built by somebody who had no business doing this.

A certified journeyman- welder is always interesting to listen to as they examine these 'builds'!!!!!!

I haven't seen a lot of rat rods and most do look like junk thrown together to me but this one really was a work of art. It reminded me a lot of the vehicles in the old movie "Water World" that were, shall we say, improvised and embellished. It did have a custom made frame and suspension parts where they couldn't be seen. It had a very consistent theme that was followed faithfully throughout the vehicle both inside and out. The owner seemed to be a fairly competent car guy and said that it ran and rode as smoothly as a modern vehicle. I guess the best of both worlds - a work of art that was also very serviceable. Now I wish I had taken more close ups of it as it really was nicely done for a rat rod.

[Old Henry]

Just stumbled onto this "Rat Bike"

[Vic Piano]

That's sew COOL...

[51 MERC-CT]

Looks like a comedians bike ( meant to keep you in stitches )

[Tim Ayers]

Looks like a mobile sweat shop.

[Ross F-1]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

...it would be like Picasso taking a photo of a nude, instead of expressing it on canvas in his own way. ...

At least in the photo, the woman wouldn't have three tits

[Vic Piano]

So, I take it, you're not an art lover...???

[Old Henry]

I think everyone loves some kind of art but the art each loves may be very different from what others love.

I had a client once that made stuff out of clay - pots, etc. He appreciated my work for him so much he gave me what he thought was one of his most beautiful pieces. For me, I thought I made something better in 1st grade. It was more of an "abstract" piece. I was gracious and swooned over it in his presence but hid it from all eyes, particularly mine, thereafter.

I love Wedgwood, fine China, and porcelain ceramics and other more traditional art but once in a while I find some interest, if not a sort of beauty, in something abstract like the very nicely done rat rod next to us Saturday.

When I was in primary school I used to love to draw things and was told I was pretty good but never magnified whatever talent I had for such. Now my "creative outlet" is photography such as I take on my road trips to share. Some love it and there seem to be some that hate it. To each his own.

[51 MERC-CT]

I personally like all the road trip videos it allows me and others to view things that I probably will never get to see in person.
Speaking of photography, just a suggestion, in order to make photos more forum friendly (not so big ) try reducing size to 5x7x100ppi
per this example

[Vic Piano]

Art appreciation, and interpretation, is an acquired taste. There will always be those who embrace "art" and those who reject it in whole, or in part, and that's fine. What isn't fine (in my opinion) is to cast aspersions upon creative individuals, whatever the reason. Self expression, through the creative process, whatever the medium, should never be repressed. It is imperative to keep an open mind in order to expand ones knowledge of, and appreciation for, art in all its forms. I'm just sayin'

[Tinker]

I don't think i would compare that particular truck to fine art, such as El Greco, Henry Moore, Andrew Wyeth, etc... not even Picasso... I'd say it falls more into of the arts and crafts category, like a macaroni-noodle Abe Lincoln.

[Vic Piano]

Tinker, in theory I agree with you but, in practice, even mediocre attempts are still art. What really defines fine art, and sets it apart from run of the mill art? Art, like everything else, comes in varying degrees. There's a joke in my industry that goes like this; Why do they call television a medium...? Because it isn't rare or well done..., however, it is still considered and art form.To that end, I'm more of an impressionist fan, but prefer the works of post Impressionist like Van Gogh over Monet, Renoir, Cezanne, Degas, etc. Where automotive art is concerned, I'm a big fan of E.T. Gregory, Harley Earl, Raymond Loewy, George Barris, Ayala, Bill Hines and the Alexander Brothers to name a few. They all took different approaches to an art form in varying degrees, from Fine art to... It's all good, even if its bad...

[Tinker]

Fine Art goes through a process of evolution. It has to happen, even bad art. But then you only have few top dogs of that style and then you move on. Yes someone could paint a very nice soup can, like Warhol, tomorrow. But it will most likely never be nearly as coveted, collected, or worth the same as Andy's, because he was first.

I guess Vic... Art is a word that gets generalized and thrown around a lot. Tv is a medium that is used primarily for commercial purposes. Same as print. I've been a motion designer and animator for national tv shows and commercials for 25yrs. I also paint "fine art". :]

Eye of the beholder.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Tinker, in theory I agree with you but, in practice, even mediocre attempts are still art. What really defines fine art, and sets it apart from run of the mill art? Art, like everything else, comes in varying degrees. There's a joke in my industry that goes like this; Why do they call television a medium...? Because it isn't rare or well done..., however, it is still considered and art form.To that end, I'm more of an impressionist fan, but prefer the works of post Impressionist like Van Gogh over Monet, Renoir, Cezanne, Degas, etc. Where automotive art is concerned, I'm a big fan of E.T. Gregory, Harley Earl, Raymond Loewy, George Barris, Ayala, Bill Hines and the Alexander Brothers to name a few. They all took different approaches to an art form in varying degrees, from Fine art to... It's all good, even if its bad...

Well said. There is a difference between art and art that a person doesn't like.

Important to understand that just because you don't like a piece of work, doesn't mean it's not art.

When any art is banned or censored, the fall of a free society is not far behind it. Don't believe it? Study history.

[Tinker]

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Hitler was an art student and collected the great masters... he did like book burnings though. :]

[TonyM]

I have never seen one of those ratrods actually in motion driving on a street. How do they get from point A to point B without scraping the whole underside of the car off? They have absolutely no clearance. They don't look at all comfortable to drive. What is the story on the low clearance?

[Vic Piano]

What it always comes down to is, what we both stated, "eye of the beholder". Weather something is used primarily for commercial use, should not be a criteria in defining it as art. Motion Pictures are defined as an art form as are movie posters and in some cases, print advertising, all done for commercial use, Toulouse Lautrec comes to mind. I've been a Television Producer/Director (some would call that collaborative art), for over 40 years however, I hung up my palette, brushes and easel years ago. Glad you still get to enjoy that part of the creative process.

[Fe26]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Hitler was an art student and collected the great masters... he did like book burnings though. :]

The Nazis didn't like modern art ie: non pictorial, they called it degenerate and burned it.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Hitler was an art student and collected the great masters... he did like book burnings though. :]

True that Hitler "collected" art for his own personal enjoyment, but his overall plan was even more grand.

I know that this may be stating the obvious, but while ripping through Europe, his men were instructed to steal anything that looked valuable.

His plan was for Germany to win the war and became the greatest nation on earth. Even that sick bastard Hilter realized that all great civlizations need museums that display great master works of art.

From what I've read, he also took great pleasure when his armies stole art from Jewish collectors since he felt they didn't deserve to have possession of these great works. In fact, Hitler and Goering had a little competition on who could amass the most pieces of art for their own collections.

The movie Monument Men was not too far of the mark. There are a lot of great books about this topic as well.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by TonyM

I have never seen one of those ratrods actually in motion driving on a street. How do they get from point A to point B without scraping the whole underside of the car off? They have absolutely no clearance. They don't look at all comfortable to drive. What is the story on the low clearance?

Here's a great video comparing two vehicular works of art side by side, a 2012 Lamorghini Aventador and a really low (to the ground) Model A rat rod to answer those questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rArpyMXT2ew

[Fe26]

Man, this thread is covering a lot of ground. Beginning with Prof’s attempt to integrate a Rat Rod into the Art paradigm using as a measure, the ‘art’ of Design, then, for good measure throwing in a Giacometti or two as if to say, these little stick figures are crudely done and then invite the question;
if it’s alright for Fine (or Highbrow) Art why isn’t it alright for Lowbrow art?

And therein lies the vexed question of what is art. Entire careers of educated and intelligent scholars have been devoted to this cause, and the debate still continues, albeit the same questions are asked and answered in never-ending marvels of novelty, artifice and sometimes scholarship.

I rather like an old Chinese proverb which divides art and the artist into three groups:

The third (lowest) rank of artist paints what he sees
The second rank of artist paints ideas
The first rank of artist is the collector who may buy one or the other or both

Design, for the most part being highly visual usually falls into the first Chinese category. As with any artistic endeavours there are exceptions and crossovers. The Rat rod question now becomes; is this an extension of automotive design, or such a departure in thinking about what an automobile is, that the Rat rod becomes Fine Art.

To use the Giacometti sculptures as example, in creating his stick like sculptures Giacometti asked; if sculpture usually depicts man as fully fleshed and realistic then can sculpture also depict man in a different way, are not my depictions also of man, is not this idea a valid one? For if you understand what is a man then you must accept that other views and ideas of what a man can be are also valid. Parallel to this question is; if this idea is accepted then by definition the idea of what sculpture is must also change. In opening up a new way of thinking he became an artist who made ideas and expressed them through the medium of sculpture.

So, has the Rat rod opened up an idea, a new way of thinking about what an automobile might be, or become? Is the Rat rod the embodiment of “Punk Music” in the car world? When the Punks, fed up with the status quo of music, branched out by inventing a new way to play and listen to their music they spoke for a new generation which needed to express their ideas by disrupting the prevailing idea that music must be melodious, keep time, and be all the things that music was supposed to be.

The Rat rod is as different to automotive design as Punk is to Mozart. If Mozart is the embodiment of classical music, and if classic automotive design is the embodiment of Design, then does that make Punk music and Rat rods lesser, or the embodiment of ideas for our time. The original Punk musicians are now regarded as seminal influencers on the music scene, and I wouldn’t mind speculating that the first Rat rods were built by visual artists in the Punk vein. All that remains to be decided is, is Punk music and the Rat rod high brow or low brow art?
And I wonder if they even care...

[Tinker]

I liked that movie monument men, just watched it on my trip back from canada yesterday. I'm still not calling that truck henry posted, art though. . Henry's car yes but not the truck.


Gary Campesi has some nice concept drawings of bobber trucks.
http://www.garycampesi.com/concept-drawings-2/

I just think the truck we are talking about lacks the craftsmanship that I would consider to be artful. It's not an original idea or thought, but a bad copy. Look at the chop across the cab top. It's not a thing of beauty.

I'm sure its fun truck maybe.

[Tinker]

I like lowbrow art. robert Williams is a master painter. Technical well done, conceptually surreal. Great stuff.

[jim1932]

First off...I have a restoration....

In my view a restoration is an engineering, mechanical exercise and the interest in looking at one is to either see how they were originally made, or to see the skill of the restorer.

A hotrod or ratrod is a creative interpretation of the automobile. The interest in large part is to see what was done different. How clever was the builder... how skilled. Like the earlier picture showed... holy crap that is just a welded on wrench.... that is to me the difference. Conservation vs free spirit. Both can be cool. both can be done by total idiots by people who don't get the idea.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I like lowbrow art. robert Williams is a master painter. Technical well done, conceptually surreal. Great stuff.

Well, we are on common ground there. Love Robt. Williams' stuff!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Fe26

Man, this thread is covering a lot of ground. Beginning with Prof’s attempt to integrate a Rat Rod into the Art paradigm using as a measure, the ‘art’ of Design, then, for good measure throwing in a Giacometti or two as if to say, these little stick figures are crudely done and then invite the question;
if it’s alright for Fine (or Highbrow) Art why isn’t it alright for Lowbrow art?

And therein lies the vexed question of what is art. Entire careers of educated and intelligent scholars have been devoted to this cause, and the debate still continues, albeit the same questions are asked and answered in never-ending marvels of novelty, artifice and sometimes scholarship.

I rather like an old Chinese proverb which divides art and the artist into three groups:

The third (lowest) rank of artist paints what he sees
The second rank of artist paints ideas
The first rank of artist is the collector who may buy one or the other or both

Design, for the most part being highly visual usually falls into the first Chinese category. As with any artistic endeavours there are exceptions and crossovers. The Rat rod question now becomes; is this an extension of automotive design, or such a departure in thinking about what an automobile is, that the Rat rod becomes Fine Art.

To use the Giacometti sculptures as example, in creating his stick like sculptures Giacometti asked; if sculpture usually depicts man as fully fleshed and realistic then can sculpture also depict man in a different way, are not my depictions also of man, is not this idea a valid one? For if you understand what is a man then you must accept that other views and ideas of what a man can be are also valid. Parallel to this question is; if this idea is accepted then by definition the idea of what sculpture is must also change. In opening up a new way of thinking he became an artist who made ideas and expressed them through the medium of sculpture.

So, has the Rat rod opened up an idea, a new way of thinking about what an automobile might be, or become? Is the Rat rod the embodiment of “Punk Music” in the car world? When the Punks, fed up with the status quo of music, branched out by inventing a new way to play and listen to their music they spoke for a new generation which needed to express their ideas by disrupting the prevailing idea that music must be melodious, keep time, and be all the things that music was supposed to be.

The Rat rod is as different to automotive design as Punk is to Mozart. If Mozart is the embodiment of classical music, and if classic automotive design is the embodiment of Design, then does that make Punk music and Rat rods lesser, or the embodiment of ideas for our time. The original Punk musicians are now regarded as seminal influencers on the music scene, and I wouldn’t mind speculating that the first Rat rods were built by visual artists in the Punk vein. All that remains to be decided is, is Punk music and the Rat rod high brow or low brow art?
And I wonder if they even care...

I don't want to split hairs about the term "punk", but a lot of early to mid-50's musicians could be considered "punk". Early Elvis is "punk" by definition. (He also had talent too)

I'm assuming you are meaning "Punk" as played by the Sex Pistols, early Damned and the Ramones as comparable to rat rods.

[Ross F-1]

A key difference between "art" and rat rods is that artists start (generally) with raw materials (blank canvas, paint, etc) commonly available, while the rat rod creator uses up something that is in limited supply. No matter the donor's condition, there is usually something that could be used productively to bring an old car or truck back to life.

[Tinker]

That's a interesting point.

[Vic Piano]

Hey Hoop, how have you been? Didn't see you at the last Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance, hope all is well. Vic

[Vic Piano]

Sounds good. Hope to see you at the next Amelia event.

[Fe26]

[Quote] I'm assuming you are meaning "Punk" as played by the Sex Pistols, early Damned and the Ramones as comparable to rat rods.

You assume correctly.

[Fe26]

Originally Posted by Tinker

That's a interesting point.

It's an uninteresting point. Artists use media as they see fit, be it paint, paper, canvas, metal, sound, film etc. Some use new materials some use old or recycled materials, the medium is also part of the message.

To imply that art is valid only by the application of certain materials misses the point of the use of materials.

[Tinker]

If you took he Mona Lisa, cut it up to make your art piece and you made it better then yes it could be considered artistic, but if you made it worse well... Rat rods by definition are typically slammed together messes. There are certainly a lot of very nice hot rods made from original cars (what else would you use) and made it look and perform well above the original design.

I didn't think that I alluded to just one medium. There are video artist, but they create video based art that is designed for gallery use only. Yes there is a difference, Commercial Art and Fine Art. There is some cross over but it is very rare that a commercial art piece would show in a gallery. But it is fairly common that a Fine art piece is used within a commercial environment.

Being that there was talk of the truck as fine art, that is what I responded to in my answer.

I am also not saying that a car can not be considered a piece of art. Couple years ago my animation was used in the lobby of the High Museum of Art Atlanta where the show highlighted car design. Attached some pictures below. Was a great show.

[Vic Piano]

The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City has recognized several automobiles as "Art", and displayed them as such. Two instantly come to mind, the 1940 Lincoln Continental Cabriolet and the 1961 Jaguar XKE. That would be an example of a commercial pieces being featured in an Art Gallery. Here's another example of a commercial product becoming an icon of industrial art. Would you consider a glass Coke bottle fine art? I'm sure Raymond Loewy did...

[Tinker]

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Vic there is always exceptions to every rule. Thank god. That's why I said rare, not impossible. Duchamp said the artist decides what is art, hence the urinal. Koons also. Warhol cemented the cross over.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Vic there is always exceptions to every rule. Thank god. That's why I said rare, not impossible. Duchamp said the artist decides what is art, hence the urinal. Koons also. Warhol cemented the cross over.

Who made the "poop" chair that's in MoMA? Warhol certainly took advantage of readily commerical materials and imagines in his art.

An arguement can be made for all of those black velvet paintings as well.

[Tinker]

Warhol drew shoes commercially for years before creating "the factory". It worked well conceptually as he was an American artist "capitalist".

No idea, I guess I missed the poop chair at MoMA the few times I've been there... which is fine by me. ha ha ...gross

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Warhol drew shoes commercially for years before creating "the factory". It worked well conceptually as he was an American artist "capitalist".

No idea, I guess I missed the poop chair at MoMA the few times I've been there... which is fine by me. ha ha ...gross

It's not really made out of poop, but brown gloppy latex that looks like a pile of poop.

I do believe some of the Eames-designed Miller chairs are displayed there as well.

[Tinker]

I guess it had to happen...

Designer works such as a chair (any functional everyday object that is designed well) are shown as Applied Arts, not Fine Art. But, I don't think a McDonalds commercial will be displayed at the Louvre anytime soon.

[SUHRsc]

I spend most of my days wrapped up in a big mix of cars, "art" and history. A few years back I had this idea to somewhat combine the 3. I set to build a period accurate late 1940's Model-A roadster, dry lakes style car. I didn't want to totally stick with the typical form follows function idea of a "hot rod" but also not go to a point of "perfection" like a modern street rod or over restored car. I wanted to blend this into a car that had lines and style that worked well and would be attractive to anyone passing by. I believe I spent more time sitting in my driveway staring at the car adjusting fine points of lines and various items, then I did actually building it.
I got to a certain point where it looked ok but I kept wanting to change this, or that, or something else. Eventually other projects took precedence.

I have yet to be able to get myself wrapped up in it enough to work on it any more. I couldn't find that balance of art/car. So it sits.

Many people stop by or see a photo and can't comprehend why it is just sitting collecting dust. I think it's just that you get to a certain point and you have to decide the path it will take and just go with it. With an ever evolving piece of art as complex as a car built with historic parts. Its just 2 steps forward and 10 steps back.

I find myself so much more drawn to a simple old car without all of the "in your face" attributes. Trying to build a car that is drastically outside of the box and not fall into that "in your face, art car" category is pretty tough.

So it sits.....

[Tinker]

Beautiful.

[Vic Piano]

An arguement can be made for all of those black velvet paintings as well.

Tim, now you're talkin', the Velvet Elvis and "Dogs Playing Poker"... Two of my absolute favorites... LOL

[Tinker]

Certainly Vic. It's kind of wrapped up into the kitsch/lowbrow movement.
http://arthistory.about.com/od/arthi.../a/lowbrow.htm

Great site for lowbrow art.
http://www.juxtapoz.com/

[Vic Piano]

Yeah Tinker but there's no denying its still art... lowbrow or other wise... LOL I'll take a look at those sites you posted... Maybe I can pull some to use in my Cigar City Flatheads event promotions... And speaking of CCF, how about a little Logo art...

[41panelmark]

Old Henery,

I can say that over the years I have found that more people like the un-restored originals a more than the restored and that young kids tend to not even notice either at shows, choosing to go right to the 2000 to 2014 cars. Having said that the other interesting thing I have noted is that if you have an old un-restored ride, custom or "rat rod" the girls/women gravitate to them far more than anything else. Not sure why.

[Vic Piano]

Ask JM, it's gotta be his original '35 ForDor Sedan that attracts all the ladies...

[Tinker]

As we digress from the topic at hand.

Vic I am a fan of low-brow and the ladies :]. CCF logo is nice. Here's my rendition of the rat fink. Added mickey as Roth drew the fink as a anti-mickey. So I thought it was only right.

SUHRsc does some very nice clean illustration, I really like his work.

Hamb has FAST: The friday art show every friday on the site. Some very nice stuff if anyone has not heard of it or cares to check it out.

[Vic Piano]

That's excellent! I was always a big fan of Ed "big Daddy" Roth, copied his art on most of my book covers in Jr. High & Early High School...

[Tinker]

Thanks Vic, did you save any?

[Vic Piano]

I had a bunch of my "art", drawings, etc., as I took art classes every year from 6th grade through 12th. My brother, ten years my junior, destroyed most of my art, model car collection and record collection, while I was away in the Army... I did manage to salvage a few things but they've been packed away for years... I'll have to go diggin' to see what I can come up with...

[SUHRsc]

Originally Posted by Tinker

SUHRsc does some very nice clean illustration, I really like his work.

Thank you!!

[41ford1]

That is definitely a work of art. A thing of beauty

[Fe26]

[Quote] If you took the Mona Lisa, cut it up to make your art piece and you made it better then yes it could be considered artistic, but if you made it worse well...

[Quote] I didn't think that I alluded to just one medium.

You didn’t make the comment about the purpose of materials. You said in reply to another post “Interesting point.” I made a comment on your comment about the original uninteresting comment.

To use your analogy of the Mona Lisa: Your premise is flawed. If an artist re-purposed the Mona Lisa to make an artwork superior to the original then that would be justified in your view. However if the result was lesser than the original then you would fault the attempt. If the ‘failed attempt’ is still art then it is a subjective opinion that you would use to decide success or not. Whatever the result the result is still art, and whatever kind of art you wish to call it does not and cannot devalue that fact.

To allude to your point I have used as an example an artist you have mentioned and a painting you have mentioned, namely, Marcel Duchamp and the Mona Lisa.






Duchamp made the original of his re-purposing on a Postcard of the Mona Lisa. The right image is a version made for Marcel Duchamp by Francis Picabia. So here we have an image of an image of an image. In the eyes of the conservative art critics of the time, Duchamp’s re-purposing was akin to heresy. But it is still art. Incidentally Duchamp’s wry humour poked a stick at conventional art by adding the moustache and the letters L.H.O.O.Q which are a clever pun. When pronounced in French the letters sound like “Elle a chaud au col” or, ‘She has a hot arse.’ In 1919 this was ‘Rat rod’ art. As the art critic Robert Hughes said, ‘this art was the Shock Of The New’ perhaps this is why more people look at Rat rods than other cars at Car Shows. They may not know much about art, but they know what they like.

[BILL WZOREK]

How about this senarel (sp.)
A beautiful / beautiful Girl dies,is a organ donor The doctor has her hart in his hands but only has a ugly / very ugly person to put it in.
? Should he put the hart into the ugly person or should he wait for a beautful person to maybe come along ?
IMHO Not all of Henrys cars were Beautiful , some should be let to DIE.
~ Oboy now I opened a can of worms ~

[Tim Ayers]

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Originally Posted by BILL WZOREK

How about this senarel (sp.)
A beautiful / beautiful Girl dies,is a organ donor The doctor has her hart in his hands but only has a ugly / very ugly person to put it in.
? Should he put the hart into the ugly person or should he wait for a beautful person to maybe come along ?
IMHO Not all of Henrys cars were Beautiful , some should be let to DIE.
~ Oboy now I opened a can of worms ~

Wow, now that is some crazy stuff. Biological "art" v. a moral dilema v. human flaws.

That sounds like a great idea for a short film. A doctor makes life or death decision based on someone's physical appearance.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by 41ford1

That is definitely a work of art. A thing of beauty

Yep, Zach is a very talented young man.

[BILL WZOREK]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Wow, now that is some crazy stuff. Biological "art" v. a moral dilema v. human flaws.

That sounds like a great idea for a short film. A doctor makes life or death decision based on someone's physical appearance.

Tim:
It was said in "jest" to show that some guys feel it is life & death and not just in the eyes of the beholder if it is or isn't a thing of beauty.

Now I am Quoting a Barner here ~~ it is just a HOBBY ~~

[Tinker]

Fe26, you really what to call that truck a work of art don't ya.

Duchamp was the godfather of conceptual art as well as a dadaist (which we mentioned before "the artist decides what is art"). Where the idea is more important then the actual physical piece. So if you just cut up the Mona Lisa and put it together again without an idea to support why you would do it, then it is just vandalism. Or maybe that is the idea, a poor one in my opinion and probably wouldn't get you much accolade. Certainly some time in the clinker. If you are the 1st artist to have the idea then it is important. If you are the 5th, 20th, 1,000th then it could be considered passe'.


I'm thinking of the most incredible art car of all time. It shall amaze the most skeptical and critical. It will fuse history and art. It will bend light and travel time. Constructed entirely of thought and waves of invisible jellybeans.

and now, here it is.





















I'll just add this and remain quiet on this subject. As I'm sure you would all appreciate that.

Self Expression is not exclusion to Art or being Artistic. If I wear baggy pants or put bullballs on the hitch of my truck is it art? Or is it a product of self expression. Wearing baggy pants does not make you an artist nor is the pants itself art. It is a fashion/cultural statement on who you are.

If he or she has fun with it, then that is all that matters.


Have a great day guys.

[Old Henry]

A few more pictures of the subject work of art that I found on the show photographer's facebook page. Not as close up as I would have liked to shows the consistent theme of the piece all around including the interior but it give you more of an idea of the "illusion" and message of the piece. It reminds me of how the illusions of time and place are created in Disnyland when all aspects of the creation are consistent with the theme and turn out to "mean something" whatever that is.



See if you can guess what the grill came off of. The WWII headlight blackout shades actually swing down to function.



The oil can has no function except to add to the "illusion" but the skull tank is the coolant recovery tank.



I still hope to get over to the owner's house and get some real closeups.

[Vic Piano]

That grill is from a '36 Hudson Terraplane.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

That grill is from a '36 Hudson Terraplane.

Kind of fits the "personality" of the truck. Makes it look like a grumpy old man or a transformer-type of creature.

[Vic Piano]

that grill on a '36 Hudson Terraplane looks very sharp... On that truck, not so much... from my point of view...

[Royal Ryser]

Like some say, "It' so ugly, it's cute."
It could be that some of anti-rat rod people are a bit jealous of all of the attention these things get. When displayed with a lot of "restored" cars, they really stand out. Really eye-catching.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

The oil can has no function except to add to the "illusion" but the skull tank is the coolant recovery tank.

Has no function? Where else are you supposed to carry the oil one might need while traveling in an isolated area?

[Chisel]

Whatever you art experts say it is, it's still a big pile of shit.

[A bones]

Reading this thread I keep going back to check the question. I'm a big fan of TEHO, but Henry asks what is the greater draw. I believe this: It really is a matter of age, Those of us who identify with what was, aren't getting much pleasure from a ride that ignores the blend of function with form. Or put another way, if you have come to this show appreciating that the pinnacle, zenith, apex, or acme of personal mobility is behind us...then Ratrod or even Hyper-car are not 'doing it' for us. To be sure, go up and down the radio dial in a populous area and it becomes evident that our numbers are dwindling. LONG LIVE THE FORD BARN!

[Ben38]

Originally Posted by Chisel

Whatever you art experts say it is, it's still a big pile of shit.

At least it's got a flathead!