500 Point Car

[Larry Brumfield]

And last but not least, if the purpose of these meets is to award the car which most closely matches the as Henry made it original then every car that came off the assembly line was a 500 point car. Otherwise, trying to achieve something which does not exist is complete lunacy.


Larry B.

[vinepro]

After reading all the different posts on this subject you can see that there is a lot of opinions on the judging process. one thing to remember is we all are trying to have fun in what ever we are trying to do weather that is building engines or judging cars.

I think some people like to sit in front of the computer were it is safe and talk about what they do not like instead of doing something about it Marco is right if you want to judge your car then get involved with judging and find out what it takes to get a high score.

Remember when Henry was building these cars that if they became scratched during assembly they just would keep going. That was a new car so there were imperfections from the gate. So do what makes you happy and don't complain if you can't get what you want just keep trying until you get there but have fun a long the way.

[Cob]

To those who make political statements - it invites drama, and your posts were deleted. Please don't make any political statements going forward or your individual post will be deleted or the entire subject post may be deleted.

Thanks,

Cob
Moderator

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by cob

to those who make political statements - it invites drama, and your posts were deleted. Please don't make any political statements going forward or your individual post will be deleted or the entire subject post may be deleted.

Thanks,

cob
moderator

thankyou

[Larry Brumfield]

Now that I know which way the site leans politically I will refrain from making political statements from now on. If attacked deliberately with a view from the other side I will say nothing, notify the moderator and I will expect their post to be deleted immediately. That's only fair don't you think. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Thanks.


Larry B.

[msmaron]

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Originally Posted by MikeK

I have a 40B that I was working on for fine-point in 2011, but that earful changed things.

Mike.... your involved in one of the best clubs in the nation with some of the best restorers there are, why would you of all persons allow this feed to deter you from doing a fine point car, You know your MARC of excellence is not difficult with the assistance you have right at the club. PLEASE reconsider your choice and i also tell you to get involved. FLick was a blast and the cars were great,. What was overheard was ignorant and stupid as was much of the feed of the last post.
JMHO
mark

[Frank Miller]

Please let me weigh in from the V8 side. I have a 49 and had it judged at the Grand National in Dearborn 2 years ago. I did not build it to be a point car but I did restore it to the best of my ability and tried to make things as correct as possible. I received 938/1000 which was good for a first place. The guy behind me got a Dearborn and his roof did not work. No one asked him. No big deal. I went there to have fun and kept with that goal and I had fun.

There is a mandatory judges' meeting the day before and anyone having a car judged is required to attend. This way all participants have an idea on how the "game" is played. They emphasize "Do not kill the car." Be polite while inspecting the car and discuss concerns with the deputy judge. The judges have the job of scrutinizing the car while making sure the participants want to participate again.

The closer a car gets to 1000 points the more it will be scrutinized. Perfection is virtually unattainable. Like a perfect vacuum. In theory yes but not reality. But I think as the judges need to look that close to find things wrong I am sure deep down they are admiring the workmanship and research that went into the car.

While the V8 is a little more forgiving allowing repro parts that look correct remember this field encompasses a greate variety of cars. The person that has no knowledge may initially see no difference between a 28 roadster and a 31 coupe. To them it is just 4 wheels with a rumble seat. Any 32 is immediately seen as markedly different from any 53.

I bring this up because it shows you how specialized the research is for the Model A. They have been restoring Model A's since my car was relatively new. With this kind of information expectation of a perfect car will rise. It takes vast amounts of resources to acheive this. I used an analogy in the other thread about the pitcher that pitched the perfect game but the umpire blew the call on what would have been the last out. A lot of people felt it should have been corrected and the umpire admitted to blowing the call but it stood because that is the rule. There was a great catch in centerfield just prior to that blown call. In most cases that would have been a base hit but the fielder made an extraordinary play. But were there any strikes that were called that should have been balls? Anyone that watches baseball will see these frequently. The strike zone even differs between umpires. It is all subjective.

So the last meet I attended I participated in the judging. My car was in touring which is done by popular vote. I did not correct anything since it was last judged. I learned how the concourse works from the other end. I may not have agreed with all decisions but I learned how and why they are made.

If I had to do it over again I would have gone to more national meets and participated in the judging. Just say you are new and want to learn. They had me crawling underneath judging the quality of the work and whether it was all original equipment. Not too difficult. And best of all I got to meet guys that have a lot of experience with the type of car I own.

Judging cars is like sports in that it is competitive but even when the goal is to have fun there are some people that let the competition get in the way of that.

Sorry for the length. Just my 2 cents.

Frank

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by vinepro

Remember when Henry was building these cars that if they became scratched during assembly they just would keep going. That was a new car so there were imperfections from the gate. So do what makes you happy and don't complain if you can't get what you want just keep trying until you get there but have fun a long the way.

Tom, Larry, and others,
To a certain extent what you are saying about Ford not sending out the door that way, --or that a 500 point car never rolled off the assembly line does have some merit however if you will please let me add a couple of things that I feel tends to skew the mindset of that 500 point car. While the J/S Committee knows there were deviations and mistakes made during the original manufacturing & assembly, to level the playing field for all concerned it takes the stance that uniformity with regard to types of parts specified, ...and quality of workmanship during assembly should all be the same, and 'as specified' by the management of Ford. Therefore I feel obtaining the 500 point car is indeed possible however what I think most folks do not comprehend is the complexity involved in judging a Model A.

There are 23 individualized areas that the judging tasks are broken into. A team might have between as few as 3 to as many as 6 to 7 members participating on it. Trust me when I say these teams, even the ones with 5 or 6 members are not there to party! For example, this year I was on a team of 3 who judged Windshield Wipers (Area 20).

By now I'm sure you are saying just WHAT is there to judge on a windshield wiper? Well, ...the other two guys on the team were VERY well versed on wipers, the arms & blades, and the mounting parts so I just stood there nodding in agreement as they rattled off fact after fact about what details we were looking for. I might add that prior to attending the meet, I had prepared by reading the Stds. several times making sure I completely understood what I was reading however on that day these other two guys had prepared additional charts & graphs just so we as a team could be accurate and thorough in our assessment. Then, as efficient as they (we) were in the judging process, it still took us over 15 minutes on each vehicle. Think through in your own mind exactly what you would do or could see looking at a Windshield Wiper assy. for 15 whole minutes! Would you be as diligent in your examination, --or would you be equally fair with all 20 car owners after inspecting their Windshield Wipers for over a 5 hour period? It's very tough because you are constantly worried about being impartial or absolutely fair to the first car owner in line, the last car owner in that line, ...and ever car owner in-between! It is a very tiring and stressful task on each person. You can see it on the faces of each judge as they turn in their last sheet at the end of a very long day.

Ohh, and speaking of long days. Remember that "being very thorough" mindset, and then apply each Team spending the 15-25 minute per car judging time to each of the 23 Areas, and you can see how a collective team-judging time of between 8 - 9 hours per car is the norm. If you were to figure there was an average of four persons per team that each spent 20 minutes per vehicle, that means by the time all 23 areas were judged, over 30 manhours of time were spent scrutinizing EACH vehicle in competition at French Lick. THAT is a testiment to how well prepared many of these cars are to be able to survive 30 hours of critiquing for authenticity & workmanship, ...and still come away with only a few items deemed needing to be corrected.

.

[5window]

Originally Posted by Frank Miller

Please let me weigh in from the V8 side. I have a 49 and had it judged at the Grand National in Dearborn 2 years ago. I did not build it to be a point car but I did restore it to the best of my ability and tried to make things as correct as possible. I received 938/1000 which was good for a first place. The guy behind me got a Dearborn and his roof did not work. No one asked him. No big deal. I went there to have fun and kept with that goal and I had fun.

There is a mandatory judges' meeting the day before and anyone having a car judged is required to attend. This way all participants have an idea on how the "game" is played. They emphasize "Do not kill the car." Be polite while inspecting the car and discuss concerns with the deputy judge. The judges have the job of scrutinizing the car while making sure the participants want to participate again.

The closer a car gets to 1000 points the more it will be scrutinized. Perfection is virtually unattainable. Like a perfect vacuum. In theory yes but not reality. But I think as the judges need to look that close to find things wrong I am sure deep down they are admiring the workmanship and research that went into the car.

While the V8 is a little more forgiving allowing repro parts that look correct remember this field encompasses a greate variety of cars. The person that has no knowledge may initially see no difference between a 28 roadster and a 31 coupe. To them it is just 4 wheels with a rumble seat. Any 32 is immediately seen as markedly different from any 53.

I bring this up because it shows you how specialized the research is for the Model A. They have been restoring Model A's since my car was relatively new. With this kind of information expectation of a perfect car will rise. It takes vast amounts of resources to acheive this. I used an analogy in the other thread about the pitcher that pitched the perfect game but the umpire blew the call on what would have been the last out. A lot of people felt it should have been corrected and the umpire admitted to blowing the call but it stood because that is the rule. There was a great catch in centerfield just prior to that blown call. In most cases that would have been a base hit but the fielder made an extraordinary play. But were there any strikes that were called that should have been balls? Anyone that watches baseball will see these frequently. The strike zone even differs between umpires. It is all subjective.

So the last meet I attended I participated in the judging. My car was in touring which is done by popular vote. I did not correct anything since it was last judged. I learned how the concourse works from the other end. I may not have agreed with all decisions but I learned how and why they are made.

If I had to do it over again I would have gone to more national meets and participated in the judging. Just say you are new and want to learn. They had me crawling underneath judging the quality of the work and whether it was all original equipment. Not too difficult. And best of all I got to meet guys that have a lot of experience with the type of car I own.

Judging cars is like sports in that it is competitive but even when the goal is to have fun there are some people that let the competition get in the way of that.

Sorry for the length. Just my 2 cents.

Frank

Frank, I like what you say. Maybe it would be better if there were no "winners" or places. You brought your car to be judged against standards-you get a total-and a list of what didn't meet the standards in the opinion of the judges. You carry that with you and each meet it's used as a baseline-to see how you did improving your car. There will be some backsliding-since some judges will find some things others overlooked-or vice versa. The point would be to see how close you could come to perfection. But being competitive, we'll always want to see if my car did better than yours-and there will always be hard feelings somewhere.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Mike, I don't know if it changes your mindset but my/our position really is "WHAT DOES IT MATTER?" if the judge did not rate it with a 500 perfect score?

IMO it really is NOT about the final score but more about bettering your vehicle and striving to meet the goals of why you restored the vehicle in the first place. .

What is the reason for entering a car?

I have learned from all this that there are several reasons not just one such as; look what I have done no matter what you think (this seems to fit in with what you are saying), there are also those that want verification for all the time and money they put into it by seeing the high score they think they deserve (I feel that people like Pete fit in this category), there are also those who want the adoration given by those that admire the car they put in despite what others think, and there are others with there own set of expectations.

We can't get away from the fact that but entering a car in fine point (or any other contest) the car is "judged". People look at the car and judge the work you have done. Strangers are telling you what they think about the work you have done, and it makes no difference if it is your wife, your boss, or the judges at the show, it hurts most people if they are told what they have done is not good enough.

You asked "I don't know if it changes your mindset...". Well, reading all this and the last closed post has given me reason to reflect. I now have been told off forum that one can observe judging, That a judge if he has any doubts should give the points to the car, and so on.

While some may think this is a waste of time and computer space, I disagree, I have learned alot as has my son (it is his car we are building).

I try to keep an open mind when reading all this and I can tell you we have gone from no way to maybe just don't get our hopes up so high who know what will happen later.

Thank all of you that have put down here their thoughts and opinions on the processes so those of us that have an interest can see other sides!

And for those of you that are tired of all this, I'm sorry to have taken up your time but it is important to my son and I.

[Cob]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

Now that I know which way the site leans politically I will refrain from making political statements from now on. If attacked deliberately with a view from the other side I will say nothing, notify the moderator and I will expect their post to be deleted immediately. That's only fair don't you think. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Thanks.


Larry B.

Larry - The only direction this site leans is discussing cars - so there should be NO leaning assumptions of any political topic which is OFF TOPIC for this site period.

I Delete ALL political comments or posts.

If you or anyone sees any political discussions or comments just report it to me and I will delete it.

BTW - don't expect anything immediately because I have a career and donate my time to help this be a enjoyable site for everyone.
I know that is fair.

Best advise is don't post a reaction post to any political anything - just report it and I will get around to deleting what is reported..


Lets enjoy the cars guys.

Thanks,
Cob
Moderator

[zzlegend]

Well said Cob.

[5window]

That's fair.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

For example, this year I was on a team of 3 who judged Windshield Wipers (Area 20).

By now I'm sure you are saying just WHAT is there to judge on a windshield wiper? Well, ...the other two guys on the team were VERY well versed on wipers, the arms & blades, and the mounting parts so I just stood there nodding in agreement as they rattled off fact after fact about what details we were looking for.
.

Brent, You set the stage for a good example. Above are pics of my original wiper blade (top and left), compared to the "authentic" reproduction which is very nice. I've only seen two original blades shown, mine and Doug Clayton's '29. BOTH are flawless (as opposed to very pretty or very nice). Often other folks receive FULL score for repros which are no more than a very nice facsimile. Now many folks would say "that's just crazy!" I suppose they would be right, but I was building the car FOR ME! However should the facsimile receive the same score? Again, it often does. You've never heard me complain, but you've unlikely ever heard someone come away from judging saying "WOW, I got away with my REPRO wiper blade!" In fact some folks would complain they were ripped off IF they had even the smallest deduction. They generally believe they should be able to get full points for "the best that is currently available". So, what is a 500 point car? Is it one with MANY, MANY carefully selected facsimiles? I could detail at least 50-100 such items on my car that aren't typical of even the highest point cars. Manifold gaskets are another example where repros are MUCH further off than the wiper blade. They aren't even close but everyone today gets full score because the judges are too new to know the difference.

In reality I had serious thoughts of never showing my car. Unfortunately that is enough for an entire post and I have a roast cooking over charcoals that has to be done properly rare if I want to be able to eat it!

[Jim Mason]

Originally Posted by Jim Mason

Make everything as subjective as possible,

Make that objective. teach me to change mindset mid sentence...fwiw,jm

[5window]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

Brent, You set the stage for a good example. Above are pics of my original wiper blade (top and left), compared to the "authentic" reproduction which is very nice. I've only seen two original blades shown, mine and Doug Clayton's '29. BOTH are flawless (as opposed to very pretty or very nice). Often other folks receive FULL score for repros which are no more than a very nice facsimile. Now many folks would say "that's just crazy!" I suppose they would be right, but I was building the car FOR ME! However should the facsimile receive the same score? Again, it often does. You've never heard me complain, but you've unlikely ever heard someone come away from judging saying "WOW, I got away with my REPRO wiper blade!" In fact some folks would complain they were ripped off IF they had even the smallest deduction. They generally believe they should be able to get full points for "the best that is currently available". So, what is a 500 point car? Is it one with MANY, MANY carefully selected facsimiles? I could detail at least 50-100 such items on my car that aren't typical of even the highest point cars. Manifold gaskets are another example where repros are MUCH further off than the wiper blade. They aren't even close but everyone today gets full score because the judges are too new to know the difference.

In reality I had serious thoughts of never showing my car. Unfortunately that is enough for an entire post and I have a roast cooking over charcoals that has to be done properly rare if I want to be able to eat it!

Marco, first let me say that I am absolutely in awe of the amount of knowledge you have about Model A's!. I would assume your wiper blade is a perfect original because it came from a Ford marked box. But, are there standards-or knowledge- about all the sources for wiper blades that Ford utilized? Wouldn't it be possible that the "reproduction" blade actually came form a different, but original, supplier? In the case of something so close,how could even an educated judge tell-and deduct for a repro part?

I think in the end, you do indeed truly build the car for yourself. You alone know where you cut a corner, bought a repro part, made do or got by. You might fool some judges, but not yourself.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by 5window

Marco, first let me say that I am absolutely in awe of the amount of knowledge you have about Model A's!. I would assume your wiper blade is a perfect original because it came from a Ford marked box. But, are there standards-or knowledge- about all the sources for wiper blades that Ford utilized? Wouldn't it be possible that the "reproduction" blade actually came form a different, but original, supplier? In the case of something so close,how could even an educated judge tell-and deduct for a repro part?

I think in the end, you do indeed truly build the car for yourself. You alone know where you cut a corner, bought a repro part, made do or got by. You might fool some judges, but not yourself.

Actually when Al made the nice wiper blades he had the Ford drawing that shows it like mine. It's my understanding he had to design it around thicker rubber stock he found available to keep costs within reason. Having large runs of rubber in three colors would have pushed it beyond the limits.

No, my blade is not NOS. It was used with all the protruding rubber broken away, but fortunately not rust pitted. I had collected a few non-Ford Trico wiper blades from the era that were NOS with good rubber. The original blade was then disassembled and carefully buffed to not disturb the Trico script and patent numbers, or disturb the flatness of the faces. I had the plater follow original practices using dull nickel, lightly buffed on the surfaces and then chromed. This left the ends and lettering dull chrome (silver). I then inserted the old stock rubber and re-riveted the replated clip back into place. Yep, several hours work on my part to make it look like it did when new. To me it was worth every minute. It's the challenges (and successes) that make restoration fun.

Yep, I have two modern 1/4" lock washers (I ran short) hidden somewhere under the front end sheet metal but I can't recall exactly where. That is the honest truth!

[Larry Brumfield]

Have you all noticed the number of views that go with this thread?

Lively debate and thorough discussions are the essence and lifeblood of any message board.

Without it, message boards become stale over time and will lose many readers.


Larry B.

[Frank Miller]

I have a roast cooking over charcoals that has to be done properly rare if I want to be able to eat it!

And how do you judge properly rare? :-)

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

Have you all noticed the number of views that go with this thread?

Lively debate and thorough discussions are the essence and lifeblood of any message board.

Without it, message boards become stale over time and will lose many readers.


Larry B.

larry you seem to be much more active on the new fordbarn versus the old. is that because the old was stale and you like the new format here?