exhaust manifolds leak ??

[sphooch]

Hi Guys i'm in the process of installing a set of manifolds and the gasket became a question to me. I always thought i had a leak at the rear of the manifold ,so finally i got another set in Hershey . its late 31 with the reforcement at the rear. the Les Andrews book says NOT TO INSTALL THE MANIFOLD GLANDS but to use the copper asbestos gasket ,this will seal the manifold to the block. I think i have them they are white not copper color. Is that correct? thanks for the help THE HOOCH

[JayJay]

I believe that the "copper asbestos" gaskets referred to in Les Andrews' book are no longer available as asbestos has been prohibited from distribution in commerce for many years. However, my experience is that the current versions work fine. They are thin copper sheeting with the crushable material (the "asbestos") enclosed, so what you see is all copper. But sort of puffy, not like a solid copper sheet.

These are the ones I use. They're available from many vendors.

I use glands but you have to check and sometimes reduce the width so that the gasket forms the seal (if the manifold or block surfaces have been machined, thereby reducing the depth of the grooves into which the glands seat, then the glands may be too wide). Pretty simple - measure the depth of the grooves on the block and the manifolds and make sure the sum of the two is greater than the width of the glands. If it's close then you're probably OK as the gasket will take up some space.

And if you still think you may have a leak, have the manifolds (intake and exhaust bolted together as an assembly) decked at your local machine shop. They do warp over the years. If it was me I'd be inclined to do that anyhow as long as you already have the manifolds off to change the gaskets.


JayJay

[TMarsh]

Had a leak with new manifold and no gland, put in the glands and that corrected leak. Do not know why you would not use them. I too used the Les Andrews book but I would still use the gland rings imho.

[Synchro909]

Didn't Ford delete the gland rings in later production?
I never use them. A wipe of high temperature RTV is all that is needed and the results are far better.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Synchro909

Didn't Ford delete the gland rings in later production?
I never use them. A wipe of high temperature RTV is all that is needed and the results are far better.

Ford stopped using the gland rings for a short time in January 1929, then started installing them again. They must have realized they were important enough to reinstall them.

All repro exhaust manifolds I have seen are machined for the gland rings. I believe they do help support the manifold and keep it in alignment.

[JayJay]

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Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

All repro exhaust manifolds I have seen are machined for the gland rings. I believe they do help support the manifold and keep it in alignment.

That's the reason I use them, to keep alignment.

We had quite a discussion about the gland rings about this time last year.

JayJay

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by JayJay

That's the reason I use them, to keep alignment.

We had quite a discussion about the gland rings about this time last year.

JayJay

I remember. Like most subjects on this site, it has made the "rounds" more than once.

[sphooch]

OK thanks guys, will order a copper set for my late 31. take some measurements and go from there. THE HOOCH

[Bob Bidonde]

My experience indicates the gland rings are essential especially if using copper gaskets.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Not to simply jump on the bandwagon here with yet another supporting opinion, but I can see no reason for not using gland rings if your exhaust manifold will accept them and bolt up to the block correctly. These rings were installed in 15,000,000 Model T's and probably in 4 3/4+ million Model A's, excluding those produced during the short period of time when Ford stopped the practice. Henry and/or the Ford engineers learned their lesson quickly and began countersinking the engine blocks and manifolds again during production to accept the gland rings. Hmmmm...There must have been a reason for a big, money-hungry company to do that, don't you think? That cost FoMoCo BIG bucks to re-instate this machining process. So, cheap old Henry must have felt there was a good reason to bring back the gland rings. Why question the wisdom of that decision today?
Here's a reason closer to home for me than FoMoCo correcting a mistake: I have a box full of exhaust manifolds, whose fourth ports are drooping beyond acceptable tolerances, all because someone was too cheap, too lazy or too un-informed to reinstall gland rings after a manifold gasket change. That could have been neglected by many owners over the past almost 100 years, not just present owners/restorers. The reason these manifolds are now worthless except as boat anchors is because the gland rings were not re-installed at gasket changing time. The weight of the heated, heavy muffler pulling down on the unsupported rear section of the VERY hot exhaust manifold over #4 port during thousands and thousands of heating and cooling cycles permanently left the manifold drooping downward. It simply followed the law of gravity, making it nearly impossible to seal leaks for very long before the gasket would blow out. Old, longtime Model A guys reading this missive probably have a few drooping exhaust manifolds lying around, too. None of us have the heart to throw them away, though! Whoever is reproducing exhaust manifolds these days is making the vendors VERY happy! I must have bought 10-15 of these puppies myself in the last 10 years for my cars and for friends/customers, who couldn't seal their exhaust manifolds in the fourth port. Multiply that by hundreds, if not thousands, of present owners doing the same to stop their exhaust leaks. $$$$$$$$$$$
For those owners seeking opinions here about whether to install gland rings or not should come over to my house and try to lift the box full of drooping exhaust manifolds - and ask themselves WHY they are drooping. Then make up your mind what to do.
Marshall

[Synchro909]

Marshall, I have read many times that the bend in the exhaust manifold is because of the weight of the exhaust hanging on the back of it and how it sags when hot. My cars are drivers, not show cars so I took the weight of the exhaust by using a spring just forward of the muffler to the engine mount.
I have never read anybody saying that the problem is exacerbated by the rear exhaust clamp being too tight. That would cause the expanding exhaust to push forward on the muffler, contributing to the issue.
I also note that Terry Burtz has not provided recesses for the rings in his new motors. I do not say that to support or refute any benefits of the rings.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Synchro909 -
Good points and that's an interesting way you have attacked the drooping manifold syndrome.

I think on this antique Ford website we need to keep original engines and Burtz blocks separate in our discussions, specifically referencing one or the other only when pertinent and relative to the question at hand. Comparing apples to apples, as it were, ignoring oranges completely. Otherwise, our future posts will be filled with such phrases as "except for the Burtz block" or "regarding original blocks only", followed by chasing down deep rabbit holes in discussions and losing the focus of the discussion topic. "Separate, but equal". (Remember that phrase?) I have not studied the Burtz block postings any deeper than in casual passing, so I don't know whether he made those six ports in the block larger for increased performance from downdraft intake manifolds & carbs and headers. If he kept them stock size, I think it's a 50-50 chance that an unsupported stock exhaust manifold (i.e., no gland rings) will eventually droop in the rear for the same reasons as cited in my previous text. Perhaps Terry had envisioned most customers using headers with larger runners where the gland rings would do no good, let alone fit. 'Dunno why he didn't counterbore for gland rings if other customers planned on using the stock manifolds. 'Must have had a good reason for his redesigned MODERN Model A engine block.

I think the vast majority of the readers here are more concerned about their original blocks, so most of our discussions about counterbores and gland rings so far have been aimed at those folks. For our original engine blocks, I have always felt gland rings were a cost-effective preventative measure to ensure that usable original or new repo manifolds don't droop over time, as unnumbered junked manifolds have proven will happen in time. There is no other explanation for this very common Model A ailment. If a person is willing to spend $99 plus shipping for a new exhaust manifold, why not start that manifold's life out right and spend another $3.50 for gland rings to keep it from drooping? To each his own, though. All we can do is advise from experience (sometimes costly) and hope it does someone some good.
Marshall

[Joe K]

I have not used gland rings - but I can see that they would help.

I did have a situation where the exhaust manifold had developed "hairline cracks." They were not visible - I kept dribbling oil on the gasket interface with the thought to see "air bubbles" from the escaping exhaust gas - but found nothing.

That is until I finally got sloppy in the application of oil - dribbled some across the top of the manifold - and then had an "AHA" moment.

The manifold was riddled with cracks which I could see as a line of bubbles. Taking it off, I dropped it on the pavement as a kind of a "lets see what happens" moment - and it shattered into half a dozen pieces.

A replacement manifold solved all.

Joe K

[Conaway2]

Sphooch - you’ll come to your own conclusion on this.

I’ve owned 4 Model A’s in the past 55 years and always had exhaust manifold leak issues when I didn’t use the gland rings…..they keep the manifold aligned so the gasket can seal.

If you try to use a manifold where the gland rings will not fit, it’s time to replace the manifold because it has drooped at #4 cylinder. New exhaust manifolds that I’ve bought from Brattons are very well-made and fit quite well.

Get a new exhaust manifold and have it planed flat with the intake manifold attached. Install gland rings and a new gasket. I like to use the copper ones.

You’ll be glad you did.

Good luck - Jim

[rotorwrench]

I've had droopy manifolds on nearly all I've checked. The new reproduction I purchased recently fit well right out of the box but I also used a new intake manifold with it. If the quality of the modern casting is better than the late 20s technology then it should last longer.

I hesitate using a stainless exhaust on mine. The CRES has a tendency to be heavier than regular steel. The steel one is heavy enough as it is.

[JayJay]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I've had droopy manifolds on nearly all I've checked. The new reproduction I purchased recently fit well right out of the box but I also used a new intake manifold with it. If the quality of the modern casting is better than the late 20s technology then it should last longer.

I hesitate using a stainless exhaust on mine. The CRES has a tendency to be heavier than regular steel. The steel one is heavy enough as it is.

I mated a new exhaust manifold with an old intake and had no issues, didn't even have to deck them (I measured max 0.006" out of flat, which was taken up by the gasket). YMMV.

JayJay

[rotorwrench]

All I felt I had to do was clean up the intake casting a bit to be a closer to the cracked original. The fit wasn't perfect but good enough not to leak. The glands fit better too.

[nkaminar]

Cast iron will expand when heated and cooled. Look at any old cast iron stove and see the warped parts in the firebox. If the part is not symmetrical or not heated uniformly it will warp. Gravity is not the driving force. Steam engines have this problem in their firebox.

A trick for restoring the compression in antique model airplane engines, with cast iron pistons and no rings, is to heat the pistons to red hot and them let them cool. They will expand to restore the compression.

Warped manifolds can be restored by heating red hot and applying a force. Too much force and they break or crack.