16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted

[V8COOPMAN]

We have two 1946 thru '48-type, 4-1/2"-wide wheels that we've started prepping for paint. They are both identical in every respect and appear to have come off of the same car.

As can be seen in picture #2, both wheels are stamped with the Ford-in-oval logo. An initial light bead-blasting of the inner hoop on BOTH wheels revealed the expected, stamped sizes...16 X 4 1/2. The question here comes from the additional characters (identical/both wheels) stamped just after the size........"KN-T B5", and then "MADE IN-US". Note that the "B" is larger than the other characters.

Anyone have a clue what the "KN-T B5" would signify? Thank you...DD

[tubman]

I don't know about '47-'48, but I'll add what little I can. When I re-did (blasted and painted) the original wheels on my '51, I saw similar stampings on the inside. I am sure mine started with "KH", which I just assumed to be "Kelsey-Hayes" and that the alpha's after them were a date code of some sort (I believe Ford stamped their engines with alphabetic dates at least from '48 on; I have seen charts of the date equivalences). Are you sure it's an "N", not an "H"?

[V8COOPMAN]

Most definitely an "N", and so as not to confuse these with Kelsey Hayes-supplied wheels, I included the Ford script-in-oval picture. My point......I have a lot of these old Ford wheels. Many of them DO have a K-H or Kelsey-Hayes stamp, but when they are stamped as such, NONE has a "Ford" script anywhere on the wheel. These are Ford-produced wheels. I have a better picture of the "N", but I cannot get it to load-up. Thank you, though! DD

[V8COOPMAN]

OK girls and boys, one last pass for the weekend crowd, and ONE slight correction to the info I originally posted. A little more scraping revealed a "FoMoCo" inside the oval.......NOT a "Ford" script, on both of these wheels. Anyone have a definitive idea of exactly what these 16" X 4-1/2" wheels originally came on, or what the "K N-T B5" means? DD

[alt63bird]

I'm currently knee-deep in deciphering codes on wheels for '50s-'60s T-birds for a tech article being prepared for Vintage Thunderbird Club International's "Thunderbird Scoop" magazine, and admittedly there is still a lot I need to learn about them. Since the oval FoMoCo trademark started use some time after 1948, it's probably safe to assume the wheel was made for '49 or later. The 16 x 4 1/2's part number was 8A 1015-C and used on '49-'56s except station wagons and sedan deliveries.

Kelsey wheels usually have date stamps with numbers for the month and year, and may have a code for their plants starting with a K with a number from 1 to 3 or 5 (?) depending if it was made in their plants in Romulus, Michigan, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or one in Canada. Motor Wheel plant codes start with a M and followed with a number for their plant. Kelsey wheels from the mid-late '50s have a circular stamp with the words "Kelsey Hayes" on the outer circumference and "Made in USA" in the center. I don't know codes for other manufacturers (yet).

One mark that has us stumped is a circular logo with a V flanked by what looks like a mirrored pair of line/arc/line segments that, if you look at it in the right frame of mind, appears to be the front of a woman between the neck and waist wearing a dress with a plunging neckline. There's usually a number or letter inside of the V. If anyone knows if this is for a trade/manufacturer's organization or something else, I'd love to learn more about it.

The letter following wheel size, K, is supposedly a code for the rim's profile (including how deep the tire bead mounting flanges are) and usage - usually passenger cars will have a J, JJ, JK or K. I don't know yet if they also are related to load rating, style or type of profile, such as drop-center. I haven't cracked these codes yet as we've found wheels of the same profile/dimensions and steel thicknesses but yet they had either a J, JK or K after the size.

I suspect, based on what all I've read to date, that N-T may be initials for the wheel manufacturer, but I currently only know of Motor Wheel (MW) and Kelsey Hayes (KH). B5 may be a code for the plant that manufactured/assembled the wheels. It might be that other codes might also related to style of center "spyder" used, size of center hub opening, or backspacing (distance from inboard face of rim to mounting face of the rim to the hub/brake drum). Again, more research needs to be done to sort through all these codes.

[Randy in ca]

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If you use the HAMB there's a fellow who knows early wheels inside out. Goes by "Wheelkid".

[TJ]

Just because the wheel has the Ford script or FoMoCo doesn't mean it was manufactured by Ford. They often required their outside suppliers to put the script on the part. Take a look at the Bendix backing plates. There is one place it says Bendix and another spot on the same backing plate for the Ford script.

[Ross F-1]

Here's a pic of what I think Alt63 is describing as far as the "woman's body" mark, also typical K-H marking, no question who made it. Coopman, are your wheels riveted or welded? They look later than 48 to me.

[V8COOPMAN]

alt63bird ........Wow, that's some elaborate info. I knew that Ford had registered the "FoMoCo" trademark in November 1948, which would realistically preclude these being "production" 1948 wheels. I had a knowledgeable 'Barner PM me that these were probably "service replacement wheels" manufactured by an outside supplier sometime AFTER 1948. I really appreciate your input! I also appreciate the info from Randy in ca and TJ . DD

[Binx]

Hmm. Some late '40's-on GM wheels were made be Kelsey-Hayes Norris Technologies. Your wheel clearly has "NT" stamped on the front where others would have "K-H". Maybe a later contract for for Ford supply?

Lonnie

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Binx

Hmm. Some late '40's-on GM wheels were made be Kelsey-Hayes Norris Technologies. Your wheel clearly has "NT" stamped on the front where others would have "K-H". Maybe a later contract for for Ford supply?

Lonnie

I think maybe we've got a BINGO, Binx ! I had noticed the "NT" stamped on the front of these wheels, but thought nothing of it, and I had certainly never heard of Norris Technologies before today. A little history on N-T was easily verifiable.

It's amazing some of the trivial facts that many of us collect and remember (or forget) over the years, and this is one of those instances when such would come into play if the right person noticed this thread. I'm now reasonably satisfied that these were service replacement wheels, and most-likely made by N-T. Thank you, Lonnie! DD

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Here's a pic of what I think Alt63 is describing as far as the "woman's body" mark, also typical K-H marking, no question who made it. Coopman, are your wheels riveted or welded? They look later than 48 to me.

And Ross F-1 .......Thanks to you also. These wheels are riveted centers. These wheels have a similar "woman"-like stamping, except that there is no number like the "8" in yours. Nowhere on these wheels is there a K-H or Kelsey-Hayes stamp, though. DD

[Binx]

No problem! Weird I can remember this but have no clue where my Dremel tool is......

Lonnie

[truckdog62563]

The "J" and other similar codes refer to a wheel's 5° drop center rim profile. All of these codes were standardized by the industry's Tire and Rim Association. Each year they published a manual containing all the rim sizes, tire sizes, load and pressure ratings, etc.

I have a pretty nice library of wheel and rim references dating from 1927 to the 1990s when things went on-line. I have Budd, K-H, Motor Wheel, and Firestone/Accu-rude (later just Accuride) catalogs as well as National Wheel and Rim Association catalogs. I've read where guys have offered the opinion that Ford produced their own wheels in some instances, but have seen no reference to support that. It's been my understanding that Ford (as with all vehicle manufacturers) sub'd wheels to the third party suppliers. NWRA and manufacturer catalogs will cross refer their numbers to the corresponding Ford part number. If someone has an authoritative reference showing that Ford produced its wheels in addition to use of the third parties I'd appreciate knowing it. No opinions please, references. If I can help with any research I'll be happy to do so. Stu

[truckdog62563]

Here's what the logos signify. Stu

[V8COOPMAN]

Stu.....I too have never seen authoritative reference to Ford-produced wheels, although I ASS-U-MED as much all of these years, along with the interspersing of outside suppliers like Budd and K-H in the earlier days. Your question about this is well-taken.

I'm curious as to what the "K" represents on your page above in the left hand column under RIM SIZE, such as 4 1/2-K, 5-K, 5 1/2-K, and 6-K? Thanks for taking the time! DD


Stu.......In re-reading your original info, does the "K" reference the drop center profile in number of degrees?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by truckdog62563

Here's what the logos signify. Stu

WOW.......There's the answer to the earlier-referenced "woman-like" trademark. It's an industry-type mark referencing a TYPE of wheel construction, and could naturally be seen stamped on DIFFERENT manufacturers' wheels. Thanks a lot for that.....GOOD info! DD

[truckdog62563]

Here's another page from a different year (1969 iirc) showing the JJ and others. I'll have to do some reading to see if they explain the reasoning behind the coding. My gut impression has been that the codes were assigned depending upon needed positioning of the center disc to achieve offset/back spacing requirements for different applications. Stu

[truckdog62563]

Just to show another example of an industry logo, here's the logo on one of my NOS Goodyear Power Wagon side rings. Stu

[V8COOPMAN]

Man, you know some stuff. Much-appreciated, Stu. DD

[truckdog62563]

I've gone back through the few copies I have of the Tire and Rim Association Year Book looking for a legend or citation explaining their usage of the rim letter codes. Nothing found. The system was in place, however, back to my earliest 1935 issuance. That year the passenger car codes were letters B through F. My next oldest issuance is for 1958 where the codes are J through L. There are also variances within these designs showing the addition of various "safety hump" features (SL or H) to aid in flat tire safety.

The passenger car section of each book also contains a listing of rim and tire sizes for each manufacturer and car model. Below are the 1958 pages to perhaps assist the gentleman in his Thunderbird research. I must admit that my use of these references has been primarily focused on truck 5° multi-part tube type and tubeless 15° rims which are my main interests. I've learned some things too going through the car sections of the books. Stu

[truckdog62563]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

WOW.......There's the answer to the earlier-referenced "woman-like" trademark. It's an industry-type mark referencing a TYPE of wheel construction, and could naturally be seen stamped on DIFFERENT manufacturers' wheels. Thanks a lot for that.....GOOD info! DD

Another point I'll make related to the industry wide use of these standards is that automotive and truck wheels alike are obviously combinations of center discs and outer rims. In the case of truck wheels for sure, and perhaps car as well, the outer rims were produced (or at minimum licensed to be produced by others under patents owned) by either Goodyear or by the Firestone Steel Products Company. These rims were then assembled with center discs of either Budd's, K-H's, or Motor Wheel's own design. The first reference I have where Firestone Accu-ride produced their own complete wheels was 1960.

Early wheels were riveted and later, beginning in the 1960s, welded due to either, or both, government mandate and industry failure rates related to the introduction of radial tires. I know for certain that radial tire failure rates changed truck wheel designs, but can't say for certain that this led to the welding, versus riveting, of car and light truck center discs. Logic, however, leads me to that viewpoint. Stu

Edit - searching for a reference today for the FTE forum I found that I have an SAE paper from 1980 that states the wheel industry adopted fully welded center discs over past practice of riveting to facilitate the move to tubeless tires. No apparent connection to radial tires. Stu

[V8COOPMAN]

Stu........I can only thank you again for sharing your printed information and some of your thoughts on all of this. It surely has opened my eyes to the "possibilities" of how some of these old wheels actually came about. DD

[alt63bird]

Stu - you da man! This is exactly what I was hoping someone had for reference material, and I never dreamed I'd have to go through the Ford Barn's Early V8 forum to get it - I can't thank you enough. I'd like to bother you if I may to get more info for some other '50s-'70s wheels used on T-birds, especially '55-'79. Feel free to PM me to exchange email addresses, etc.

[truckdog62563]

Shall do. Glad to help. Stu