List of Reproduction "A" Parts That Don't Work

[Flathead]

While Vintique can be very frustrating, think of all the things we use that we would not have otherwise. "You have to take the bitter with the sweet".

[Bob Bidonde]

I was hoping to see lists of specific discrepant reproduction parts, but it appears that will not happen.

[gdmn852]

Hello again, some of the repro problem may be they copy a existing part , rather than having the original blueprints to go by . Also on newer cars , you just can’t buy the part you need, have to get the whole assembly, case in point a friend Taurus wiper mount stripped off, had to buy the wiper linkage to replace part .Some services aren’t available anymore, try to get a radiator cleaned and repaired, just total replacement today.

[David in San Antonio]

Okay, I’m wondering what the top ten most-desired parts for which high quality replacements are not available. Apart from bode panels, that is.
I’m thinking for some parts that industrial 3D printing continues to improve in quality while falling in price. Whether to make the actual part or make a form to cast from. Obviously this applies to some parts and not to all.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Bob Bidonde

I was hoping to see lists of specific discrepant reproduction parts, but it appears that will not happen.

Bob, I feel certain I am one that could make you a detailed list however I just do not have the time to devote to such a project as what you are asking for. My guess is others would feel similarly. Heck, there was even a magazine devoted to this topic which I found my experiences often countered the reviews author was making on parts that were gifted to him for his projects. At that time, my shop was producing between 6 - 8 complete frame-offs per year which allowed us the opportunity to use/install/rework a half-dozen of most reproduction parts Since that time, many of the better manufacturers just do not produce what they once did which leaves the inferior product to be used on these vehicles.

Great point about Vintique's products posted below.

[Oldbluoval]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Several quality product makers have gone by the wayside. More to come I’d suppose
The economic quantity to produce often exceeds demand…leaves all the profits (if any) in unsold inventory to sit on shelf. A&L ( for one example)
makes great parts but limited now to ability to produce. Situation not limited to them.
Yet , new stuff does come around like the Birtz engine, et al.
Sheet metal is still a big problem….most patches (if available) are junk

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by David in San Antonio

Okay, I’m wondering what the top ten most-desired parts for which high quality replacements are not available. Apart from bode panels, that is.
I’m thinking for some parts that industrial 3D printing continues to improve in quality while falling in price. Whether to make the actual part or make a form to cast from. Obviously this applies to some parts and not to all.

David, we have (-and use) a 3D printer in-house, and also have a CNC plasma table and a CNC laser. A CNC Router is in our future too HOWEVER what we have found is basically nothing about restoration work, -specifically Model-A restoration is 'assembly line' work. The downside to using these tools is the programing and set-up time required to do a one-of item. Model-Aers typically do not want to pay those costs.

Now with the above said, as far as technology goes, restoration of early cars (-because they were missing key parts) has never been easier. This is not to say cheaper, ...just easier. Casting new engine blocks or cylinders, making new axles or gears, etc. has come to an age where there are options now. Below I posted some pictures of a brand-new carburetor for my 2 cylinder Maxwell. Original carburetors for these cars (-when you can find them) often fetch $800-$1,000 in a 'needing-to-be-rebuilt' stage, so imagine guys being excited to pay between twice and three times that price for a new one not guaranteed to even work properly, -however all items manufactured to original specs. And, to help lower those costs, the project was amortized over 5 carburetors! The irony is that my fully-restored '09 Maxwell will not bring much more $$ than a nicely restored Model-A.


One other though, the Model-A items that could be tooled and produced, these items often aren't because the ROI is just not there for the person putting up the $$. As a whole, it has always appeared to me that the typical Model-A hobbyist is overly-frugal which has likely hurt the entire hobby. How often do we hear advice given to buy a car instead of restoring one? Thirty to forty years ago, a fairly fresh restoration done by a hobbyist would sell for enough where the restorer could feel like it was worthwhile investment. Now, very few people actually restore their Model-A, and the available quality of cars has dwindled. To me, this mindset has hurt this hobby greatly because it has attracted hobbyists that are not necessarily good stewards of their automobile. Maybe if some of these reproduction Model A parts were no longer available, maybe the quality and value of restored Model-As would see an increase?? Time will tell.

.
.

[BillCNC]

Hey All,

It cost the same amount of money to make a part correctly as it does to make one incorrectly using the same materials and processes. So in all honesty, to me, it's not a money issue and the blame should be shared with the MFG's and the distributors. First the MFG for making the part incorrectly, and secondly, the distributor for accepting incorrectly made parts.

MFG's:
It is obvious that just about every bad part I have gotten in the mail, was machined incorrectly, or made from molds that should have been retired in the 80's and new ones made. If the MFG, inspected every 25-50th part, they could see things are starting to go out of whack all because of tool wear. Hit stop on the CNC or stop the mill, lathe or whatever machine it is and measure the tool. If it's found to be out of spec but still usable, change the tool offset measurement and then hit the go button. If not, then replace the tool. It's that easy. That's one of the few job's of the machine operator. Load parts, run the program, take part the part out, wash rinse and repeat. He should be visually inspecting the newly made parts he just removed and then put it with the rest of them. He should also take a part every now and then and measure it to ensure all dimensions are correct. If not, stop and figure out what went wrong and correct it. The bid for the job has accounted for this.

Distributors and Retailers:
They're part is that they accept bad parts, and sometimes knowingly saying it's the only thing there is. These are the folks who are at the front of the line of quality control. If they let the crap slide, far more crap will come until we are at this point in time. They don't want to take the trouble of sourcing known MFG that are good and have a good reputation for making things. If the part is unavailable and there is enough call for it, someone will step up to claim a monopoly on that part. Will it make them rich, probably not, but it is a stream of income.

Myself:
Most of the time I look at the part I need to purchase. Sometime I have to have them shipped but most of the time I can get them locally and when I do, I have them drag out every one of the particular part I'm looking for and go through them all and pick the one I want. I consider them raw blanks that need to be reworked. Picking the expensive incorrectly made part over the cheaper incorrectly made part doesn't happen so if their both wrong, I'm saving some money.

Again, a correctly made part cost the exact same as an incorrectly made part. I'd like to see them get away with this with car parts for the new cars. An NC code does exactly what it's told to do including destroying itself if you program it to. Not paying attention to tool wear/breakage and using inferior materials is 95% of all incorrectly made parts. The other 5% is simply just bad designs to start with.

Numbers do matter...

Regards
Bill

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by BillCNC

It cost the same amount of money to make a part correctly as it does to make one incorrectly using the same materials and processes. So in all honesty, to me, it's not a money issue and the blame should be shared with the MFG's and the distributors. First the MFG for making the part incorrectly, and secondly, the distributor for accepting incorrectly made parts.

Bill, I totally disagree with this statement! There are many details of a Model-A part that can be omitted to save money. Let's use your Tudor's exterior Door Handles for example. The amount of extra dies and tooling to manufacture an aesthetically authentic handle is WAY more complex than the way they are made now. So realistically will the consumer pay $150 for a door handle? History has proven the average Model-A hobbyist won't.

Originally Posted by BillCNC

MFG's:
It is obvious that just about every bad part I have gotten in the mail, was machined incorrectly, or made from molds that should have been retired in the 80's and new ones made. If the MFG, inspected every 25-50th part, they could see things are starting to go out of whack all because of tool wear. Hit stop on the CNC or stop the mill, lathe or whatever machine it is and measure the tool. If it's found to be out of spec but still usable, change the tool offset measurement and then hit the go button. If not, then replace the tool. It's that easy. That's one of the few job's of the machine operator. Load parts, run the program, take part the part out, wash rinse and repeat. He should be visually inspecting the newly made parts he just removed and then put it with the rest of them. He should also take a part every now and then and measure it to ensure all dimensions are correct. If not, stop and figure out what went wrong and correct it. The bid for the job has accounted for this.

Again, this is just not real-world in this hobby. Using your Model-A front fenders as the example, the fender dies are probably 20-25 years old now, and as Bob told me, they have been re-worked until they can no longer be re-worked. The issue is the costs to have new dies made to reproduce 1931 Model A fenders vs a ROI far exceeds what a typical businessman deems prudent to spend on this project. Businessmen in this industry have known these dies had major issues, and they have heard Bob say he was not going to make new ones, so if someone thought it was going to be lucrative, new dies would have been made and new fenders would have been marketed a decade or two ago.

As for Q/C with jobshops check tool wear and such, ...again, based on what I know, most Model-A parts manufacturers cannot afford top-level shops, ...simply because the costs are too great per item and the market will not bear this added costs.

Originally Posted by BillCNC

Distributors and Retailers:
They're part is that they accept bad parts, and sometimes knowingly saying it's the only thing there is. These are the folks who are at the front of the line of quality control. If they let the crap slide, far more crap will come until we are at this point in time. They don't want to take the trouble of sourcing known MFG that are good and have a good reputation for making things. If the part is unavailable and there is enough call for it, someone will step up to claim a monopoly on that part. Will it make them rich, probably not, but it is a stream of income.

Myself:
Most of the time I look at the part I need to purchase. Sometime I have to have them shipped but most of the time I can get them locally and when I do, I have them drag out every one of the particular part I'm looking for and go through them all and pick the one I want. I consider them raw blanks that need to be reworked. Picking the expensive incorrectly made part over the cheaper incorrectly made part doesn't happen so if their both wrong, I'm saving some money.

Again, a correctly made part cost the exact same as an incorrectly made part. I'd like to see them get away with this with car parts for the new cars. An NC code does exactly what it's told to do including destroying itself if you program it to. Not paying attention to tool wear/breakage and using inferior materials is 95% of all incorrectly made parts. The other 5% is simply just bad designs to start with.

Numbers do matter...

Regards
Bill

Again, I think you have a huge misunderstanding of how many reproduction parts are made, and what is involved. From an insider's perspective I can tell you it is all about market pricing, the manufacturing costs, and the ROI. As far as making new car parts vs. old car parts, the comparisons are not even close. In the new car manufacturing world, an OEM supplier likely stamps more front fenders in just one day than what a Model-A fender Manufacturer would sell in one decade. Think about that for a moment.

[johnneilson]

Well said Brent, totally disconnected from reality
The hobbyist who complains the most is probably the first to buy the absolute cheapest version available
Caveat emptor


John

[Synchro909]

This thread is supposed to be about reproduction parts that don't work. To we in the RHD world, a bigger problem is reproduction parts that are not available. The list of those would astound you guys. Just off the top of my head, there would be ignition timing levers and rods the correct length, brake cross shafts, pedal shafts and bushings, recoed steering arms - the list is seemingly endless.

[nkaminar]

Brent, That is a nice looking Maxwell carby.

Synchro, Is there a law against driving LHD cars in Australia? Or other reason not to do that? There are a number of RHD cars driven here, especially the brass car for the Horseless Carriage Club of America tours.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

Synchro, Is there a law against driving LHD cars in Australia? Or other reason not to do that? There are a number of RHD cars driven here, especially the brass car for the Horseless Carriage Club of America tours.

Neil, No there is no law against it but the idea of gauging whether it is safe to overtake only by the loudness of my passenger's scream because she can see up the other side of the road before I can doesn't excite me AT ALL
The reason there were lots of RHD cars in the US in those early days is because all American cars were RHD up till 1909, when Henry made his Model T LHD for the domestic market.

[NH-A]

I think a large portion of this is the demand issue.

Let's take the rootlieb 1931 running boards. They are an exact reproduction (as far as I know) made off original prints using the original method. The rubber mat is vulcanized into the running board holes. Expensive process. It creates an exact original style part. The problem? I think I paid $700 for a pair.

How many of you would actually pay that for just a set of running boards? I don't think it's many, as I see lots of the cheaper ones ($300/pair) for sale everywhere online like eBay and the parts dealers, yet, rootlieb has discontinued them. I would guess the demand is not there to warrant the hassle of the manufacturing process.

If someone made spot on exact interior kits that are true reproductions of the originals, let's say for a Tudor, and they cost $8000 for a full kit, yet some mass produced incorrect one is $4000, who is going to pay up for the perfect original style one? I know I would, but I don't think many others.

Or I know gas tanks are a hot topic. Nobody makes new ones. I am guessing quite a bit of work would go into making new ones that are drop in replacements. Let's say someoneanaged to make them for sale. I would think they would run at least $1000 each. Would anyone buy one? Is it even worth it to make a few sales? Or we all know the new steel front fenders are awful. How much would you be willing to pay for a perfect one? Again, no idea, but nowadays I'd guess $1000 or more per fender.

Part suppliers see that cheap sells, and go with the cheap option. If that means using an old and out of whack mold to make some seat bracket that doesn't fit, but they only sell 5 a year, then that's what they are going to do. There are the outliers that don't want junk and will pay, but not enough to support a large scale "run" of parts in most cases.

[dave in australia]

Vintique radiator caps.
Any repro radiator surround.
For us Australians, Pete Jackson side valance panels, radiator valance panels, bonnet shelves, running boards.

[Mtn Wudy]

Henry tried to tell us.....

"Buy Genuine Ford Parts"

By the way I bought a nice pair of 28/29 Hood Shelves from Berts's...
Fit to a T,,I mean A...😳😳😬

[BillCNC]

Brent,

#1 - In your fist example, you switch out the same processes to make a more elegant handle which would change things so stick with everything equal. BTW, for our handles they have a shallow draw so they don't need progressive stamping. If they did, then it would cost more. Also, an elegant handle with an intricate design would cost the same if progressive stamping isn't needed. In our case, such fancy stuff would cost the same as any cosmetic detail is free to make once the tooling is made. The tooling would cost more to produce, which would raise the price slightly but over the life of the mold and the amount of intended parts to be produced, the difference in cost would be minimal.

Example:
If someone makes a ball bearing with everything being equal, materials and processes, one is perfectly spherical the other is not due to tool wear. They DID cost the same to produce.

Example 2:
We'll use plastic ice trays as an example. Each weighs 200 grams in material. One has 20 ice recesses and the other has 100. They both cost the same even though one is far more intricate/elegant in design. The only price difference would be due to the cost of making the molds and not the individual part. Once you compare the amount of parts made to the cost of the mold, you do see a difference, but the actual cost per part is the same. Same time, same material, same labor loading and unloading, same in packaging, the same shipping and storage. Again, if the MFG did not set aside money for new molds from each same, that's his fault because he knew they would not last forever. By squeezing the last drops out of a mold and only producing crap because of it, reflects badly on the business. If a MFG is not willing to do it right, then please don't do it at all. the vacuum made more than likely will be filled if there is any money to be made.

#2
Who the hell want to sell parts for decades while not setting money aside for new molds over time? That's the MFG's own fault for not reinvesting a small amount from every part from that mold that was sold and NOT the customers or distributors.

There is no misunderstanding her on how things are made. I am retired from the prototype industry of over 30 years. I've worked with Boeing, Nasa, Raytheon, JPL, BAE, medical, automotive, homeland security, DOD, and everything under the sun to toy's. I know exactly how things get made.

BTW, just because something is more expensive, does not mean it's better. Being cheaper could be the cause of many thing all the way to your fender example, mass produced vs short runs. BUT, no mistake should be made, they still use the same process and if our fenders don't fit, well it's obvious, the molds suck and new ones should have been planed for long ago.

ANYONE and EVERYONE making widgets knows there is a lifespan to all tooling so prep for it, or stop producing them because you can no longer make the parts correctly. The fastest way to maker simple part costly, is by making endless scrap from not checking your parts as the come off the machine and not checking the dimension of your tool/cutters. Labor, machine time, and materials, time finding the problem and correcting it all jettisoned out the nearest window.

As far as model A folks go, there are several types of us.

1) New and young, most not mechanically inclined and have family money or inherited the car.
2) Older and more mechanically inclined due to their generation of fix instead of replace.
3) Folks that are very mechanically inclined.
4)Mechanically inclined but disabled or just to old to do anything but drive.

#1 Will buy all new stuff regardless of cost.
#2 There is a 50% on buying or fixing. It all depends on the time to fix it vs replace it and their schedule.
#3 Most of the time I would think they would op for the best part for them as they know more than likely it will need reworking. If the expensive part is much closer to being correct, I get that one. If not, I go cheaper and rework the part. Some will make their own parts and tools because they can and have fun doing it.
4) They pay someone to do the work so more than likely they get the part the person working on the car bought for them unless otherwise specified.


Regards
Bill

[jg61hawk]

I love it when the parts are wrong....I get to make them right but they provide a good starting point! I show the wife how clever I am and we ride around in the car she owns.... Love the A

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

David, we have (-and use) a 3D printer in-house, and also have a CNC plasma table and a CNC laser. A CNC Router is in our future too HOWEVER what we have found is basically nothing about restoration work, -specifically Model-A restoration is 'assembly line' work. The downside to using these tools is the programing and set-up time required to do a one-of item. Model-Aers typically do not want to pay those costs.

Now with the above said, as far as technology goes, restoration of early cars (-because they were missing key parts) has never been easier. This is not to say cheaper, ...just easier. Casting new engine blocks or cylinders, making new axles or gears, etc. has come to an age where there are options now. Below I posted some pictures of a brand-new carburetor for my 2 cylinder Maxwell. Original carburetors for these cars (-when you can find them) often fetch $800-$1,000 in a 'needing-to-be-rebuilt' stage, so imagine guys being excited to pay between twice and three times that price for a new one not guaranteed to even work properly, -however all items manufactured to original specs. And, to help lower those costs, the project was amortized over 5 carburetors! The irony is that my fully-restored '09 Maxwell will not bring much more $$ than a nicely restored Model-A.


One other though, the Model-A items that could be tooled and produced, these items often aren't because the ROI is just not there for the person putting up the $$. As a whole, it has always appeared to me that the typical Model-A hobbyist is overly-frugal which has likely hurt the entire hobby. How often do we hear advice given to buy a car instead of restoring one? Thirty to forty years ago, a fairly fresh restoration done by a hobbyist would sell for enough where the restorer could feel like it was worthwhile investment. Now, very few people actually restore their Model-A, and the available quality of cars has dwindled. To me, this mindset has hurt this hobby greatly because it has attracted hobbyists that are not necessarily good stewards of their automobile. Maybe if some of these reproduction Model A parts were no longer available, maybe the quality and value of restored Model-As would see an increase?? Time will tell.

.
.

I have a beginners level 3-D printer that I have never even tried out. Are these really useful for making small parts? I mean do I have to by CADD14 just to get a drawing I can make up and put on the thing?

[gdmn852]

Hello again, been following this post, l am probably one of the exceptions, still restoring and willing to spend the money for a better quality part , decided to buy the $725 running boards while still available. I never did understand people complain about prices of decent quality parts, accept that restoration work is expensive or find another hobby. Bought the repro quarter panel , door , and cowl panels for my 31 roadster, out of the three , only the cowl panel fit without too much rework, but they were available, Model A s do have that advantage.