Want to adapt a F-O-M to my flat 6. Advice?

[LazarusLong]

Just bought a 51 business coupe with the original flat 6,and the flat 6 is staying in the car. Given my advanced state of geezerism and Santa not bringing me the new knees I need last year,I'm starting to give some thought to adapting a Ford-O-Matic auto trans to my flat 6. I know that was a option in 51,but I doubt many people picked it.

Anybody ever done this or have any idea what I need to have to complete the process?

Am I stuck with a 51-53 FOM,or can I use one from a Y-Block? Are there any obvious appearance differences between a 51-53 FOM and one that was put behind OHV 6's and Y-Block V-8's? I want to keep the car as stock-appearing as possible. Even underneath.

Anybody have any idea where I can find a automatic shift column for a 51 Ford that is complete?

What about a torque convertor?

Anyone know the factory rear gear ratio for flat 6 automatic 51 Fords? I'm guessing there were at least 2 or 3 of them made and sold,so the info has to be out there somewhere.

Thanks for any help or suggestions in advance,as long as none of them are "replace the flat 6 with a sbc".

[51 MERC-CT]

There are virtually no differences between the transmissions. The bell housings are what determined which engine it fit. In your case you would need the proper bell housing as well as the torque converter/starter gear which in itself requires a different starter/bendix combination.
Then there's the rear motor mount, which is probably different.
And there is the accelerator to transmission kick down linkage.
You mentioned requiring an automatic column which should have a neutral safety switch attached and properly wired.
Don't know what the Ford rear gear ratio would be but the Merc.'s are 3.31

[oldskool]

I believe bendtsens makes a adaptor/kit to install a ford AOD trans for 6 cyl fords..

[JSeery]

AOD might be the way to go if it will fit in there. The overdrive would be nice.

[LazarusLong]

Thanks,51 Merc-CT.

Looks like this will be virtually undoable because it will be almost impossible to find a 6 cyl bellhousing,torque convertor,and starter.

[LazarusLong]

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Thanks,Oldskool. I really don't want to alter the car from original if I can avoid it,though.

[LazarusLong]

"AOD might be the way to go if it will fit in there. The overdrive would be nice."

Thanks,JSeery,but for me it is a F-O-M or I keep the manual+od original trans.

[JSeery]

Looks like manual it is! LOL

You could look for a parts car so you would have all the pieces you need in one place, but then it might be easier to just go with the new car if you could find one in as good of shape or better than your current one.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Looks like manual it is! LOL

You could look for a parts car so you would have all the pieces you need in one place, but then it might be easier to just go with the new car if you could find one in as good of shape or better than your current one.

Thanks,but it would be almost impossible to find a complete 51 coupe with the original flat 6 and automatic. I doubt that Ford sold a dozen of them new. People who were thrifty enough to buy 6 cylinder base coupes with overdrive generally weren't about to spring for the added expense and poorer gas mileage of a car with an automatic trans.

And if the bellhousings,torque convertors,and starters aren't interchangeable between the flat 6 and the flat V-8,my search would be restricted to only 1951 cars. Ford came out with the OHV inline 6 in 1952.

In the unlikely event I ever replace my flat 6 with anything,it will by a Y-Block Ford. I don't see that happening,though. I spent all this time looking specifically for a coupe with the flat 6 because that's what I wanted.

[rotorwrench]

The Borg Warner electric overdrive option was close to being automatic when you start out in 2nd then shift into OD while driving around town. If the car is heavy with passengers, it is a bit sluggish to start out in 2nd but if it's just a couple of folks in there then it works OK. The 6-cylinder has plenty of torque so that should work.

The old Ford-O-Matics are not too bad when one is in good shape and is well cared for. It is getting harder and harder to find the hard parts for them. When overhauled, it takes a sharp technician to follow the procedures for overhaul in the appropriate manuals and then get them properly adjusted after. It really helps when you can find someone with experience with them. They have quirks and experience definitely helps get the job done correctly. Torque converters wear out and finding parts is getting to be a problem. The advice about an AOD or even a C4 transmission is an option worth considering.

[Ross F-1]

Does the crank on the 6 need to be machined for the t.c. hub?

[toby]

A Fordomatic was not offered in 51 for a 226, 6 cylinder. The bellhousing is completely different the way it bolts to the block. A 6 has a flat rear engine plate that the bell attaches to. A V8 bell will not match up(different shape, bolt positions etc.)

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by toby

A Fordomatic was not offered in 51 for a 226, 6 cylinder. The bellhousing is completely different the way it bolts to the block. A 6 has a flat rear engine plate that the bell attaches to. A V8 bell will not match up(different shape, bolt positions etc.)

Guess that solves that!

[Ol' Ron]

You might want to contact Gene at Flat o matic. He might be able to supply you with a C-4 kit. you could also use a V8 steering column.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The Borg Warner electric overdrive option was close to being automatic when you start out in 2nd then shift into OD while driving around town. If the car is heavy with passengers, it is a bit sluggish to start out in 2nd but if it's just a couple of folks in there then it works OK. The 6-cylinder has plenty of torque so that should work.

The old Ford-O-Matics are not too bad when one is in good shape and is well cared for. It is getting harder and harder to find the hard parts for them. When overhauled, it takes a sharp technician to follow the procedures for overhaul in the appropriate manuals and then get them properly adjusted after. It really helps when you can find someone with experience with them. They have quirks and experience definitely helps get the job done correctly. Torque converters wear out and finding parts is getting to be a problem. The advice about an AOD or even a C4 transmission is an option worth considering.

Thank you for the well-thought out and informative reply. I am hoping against all odds that a Y-Block FOM will work because I know where I can get one of them. I sold it to a friend of mine a couple of years ago and he's never used it. And I know it to be good because I pulled it and 312 I am going to use in my 34 pu out of a 58 Ford drag car that I drove around some.

The point about finding someone experienced with FOM's is getting to be a scary problem because most of these people are already dead or unable to work anymore. I have no idea what to do about that other than wish for the best. If worse comes to worse,I will buy a manual and rebuild the damn thing myself.

I have no idea what to do about replacement hard parts made from Unobtanium,other than the wishing for the best thing.

I doubt I will be lucky enough to find a 6 cylinder bellhousing and torque converter anyhow,so the point may be mute.

Then again,I am probably the only one in the country looking for them,so the competition won't be fierce.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Does the crank on the 6 need to be machined for the t.c. hub?

Beats me,but I am assuming not because it would have complicated the production process. It's not like they really expected to sell a lot of 6 cylinder automatic trans cars.

I'm hoping that somebody that knows for sure will pipe up and let us know,though.

Thank you for asking because I hadn't even wondered about that. No way am I pulling my crank out to have it machined and rebalanced. The engine runs too good to mess with it.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by toby

A Fordomatic was not offered in 51 for a 226, 6 cylinder. The bellhousing is completely different the way it bolts to the block. A 6 has a flat rear engine plate that the bell attaches to. A V8 bell will not match up(different shape, bolt positions etc.)

I have read from another source that the automatic was an option for 6 cylinder cars in 1951.

I will look it up later tonight when I have more time and post a link to it on this thread tonight.

I seriously doubt they sold very many of them,though. Maybe to an occasional amputee or something,but most people that bought 6's back then were frugal and wanted fuel economy.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by toby

A Fordomatic was not offered in 51 for a 226, 6 cylinder.

That sure is a pretty engine!

Are those Webers? Who manufactured the intake?

Did/does anyone manufacture a finned aluminum head for the 226?

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

You might want to contact Gene at Flat o matic. He might be able to supply you with a C-4 kit. you could also use a V8 steering column.

Thanks for the tips!

I have a couple of good C-4's laying around in the shop,but would much prefer to stay with the FOM if I can. I'm not a purist or show car restorer,but I'd still like to keep the car as original as possible as long as it's not a safety issue. I'm definitely going to go with a dual outlet non-power master cylinder under the floor once I recover from buying the car and spending the money to get it back on the road with a new original master cylinder.

Then again,if/when my left leg gets amputated I will be out of choices and have to do something. Botched operation at a VA hospital killed the circulation,and age and diabetes did the rest.

[toby]

The carbs are stock one barrels and the intake is an Edmunds.

In order to mate a Flat-O-Matic (C-4) you would have to change to a truck configuration with a truck rear engine plate, oil pan and pickup, half bell and then deal with the steering to clear the truck oil pan(the truck oil pan is towards the rear of the engine while the car is more towards the center). The center sump of the car makes room for the steering assembly.

[JSeery]

Might do some research on installing a C4 without making any permanent modifications so that it could be easily switch back to stick.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by toby

The carbs are stock one barrels and the intake is an Edmunds.

In order to mate a Flat-O-Matic (C-4) you would have to change to a truck configuration with a truck rear engine plate, oil pan and pickup, half bell and then deal with the steering to clear the truck oil pan(the truck oil pan is towards the rear of the engine while the car is more towards the center). The center sump of the car makes room for the steering assembly.

Thanks!

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Might do some research on installing a C4 without making any permanent modifications so that it could be easily switch back to stick.

One truth you can rely on is that I will do nothing to this car that can't be easily and quickly brought back to original. Any part I remove,like the chrome tail light extensions,gets preserved and put away for whoever buys the car at my estate sale.

I even plan to put LeBaron Bonny upholstery in it. The smell of wool upholstery on a warm day when the windows have been rolled up sure brings back the childhood memories for me.

[scicala]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FORDOMA...item339c7e193a


I did find this link to a 1951 Fordomatic brochure on EBAY. If you look at one of the pages and blow it up, it says the Fordomatic was available for V8 and 6 cylinder engines. So guessing it was available with the 226 6 cyl., but doesn't mean there are any out there.

Sal

[Rowdy]

If you find one to rebuild I have afew NOS transmission parts with the prefix 1P. While I am not certian of their application, they seem to be for an automatic of some sort. Rod

[LazarusLong]

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[QUOTE=scicala;106639

I did find this link to a 1951 Fordomatic brochure on EBAY. If you look at one of the pages and blow it up, it says the Fordomatic was available for V8 and 6 cylinder engines. So guessing it was available with the 226 6 cyl., but doesn't mean there are any out there.

Sal[/QUOTE]

Thank you!

That brochure now belongs to me.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

If you find one to rebuild I have afew NOS transmission parts with the prefix 1P. While I am not certian of their application, they seem to be for an automatic of some sort. Rod

Thanks. I have some manuals/brochures on order,and will have to get back with you on that one once they come in and I can figure out what is for what.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Thank you!

That brochure now belongs to me.

Good catch!!

[bk53]

There are still FOM to y-block guys out there. Check out the local tri-5 t-bird crowd. as 51 merc said, rigging the kick down or kick up or whatever it is would need to be got thru. Together with all the other issue folks mentioned. As stock as my 53 f100 with fom is, I can't tell you how many times I've considered an AOD.

[JSeery]

Love AODs, I have rebuilt several for later Fox mustangs.

[tubman]

I would suggest that you post a wanted ad anywhere practical (here, the H.A.M.B, the EFv8 club (if you're not a member, join), all the shoebox internet forums you can find, Auto-trader, etc., etc., etc.). The guys doing restorations of extremely rare cars always seem to eventually find what they need to complete a project. Your advantage is that if you do find it, you can probably afford it. Also, troll eBay and Craigslist. Have you talked to the folks at Shoebox Central" yet? The guys that are diligent in their search usually find what they need.

[rotorwrench]

Many folks took the O-matics out and put something else in. They are out there and prices are still affordable. The largest expense would be for shipping if you can't find one locally.

One of the things that was hard on them was if you get stuck in cold weather you had to be real carefull not to shift hard from forward gears to reverse & back. A lot of them ended up with cracked cases in that kind of situation.

[Motorhead6]

I'm fairly certain that the FOM behind 312's had cooling lines to the radiator while all prior ones were air cooled and require a different TC and ducted bell housing. The 312 came out in '56 and I know some '56's had air cooling and some had water cooling. Guessing the difference is the 312 (or perhaps all had it once the 312 was introduced). '57 and later all had water cooling as far as I know. Just a consideration.

[rotorwrench]

1956 was change year for the o-matics. The 1955 ones had improvements over the late 1950 ones up through 54. There were more changes over the years but the basic medium case remained very similar clear up to the mid 60s. There are a few guys on the HAMB that know them pretty well. I'm more familiar with the medium case cruise-o-matic ones put into the big T-birds but they all still work basically the same and they also have the same quirks. The only major difference was that the later ones started out in 1st gear instead of 2nd.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

I would suggest that you post a wanted ad anywhere practical (here, the H.A.M.B, the EFv8 club (if you're not a member, join), all the shoebox internet forums you can find, Auto-trader, etc., etc., etc.). The guys doing restorations of extremely rare cars always seem to eventually find what they need to complete a project. Your advantage is that if you do find it, you can probably afford it. Also, troll eBay and Craigslist. Have you talked to the folks at Shoebox Central" yet? The guys that are diligent in their search usually find what they need.

Thanks for the tips. I am now working on all of them.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Motorhead6

I'm fairly certain that the FOM behind 312's had cooling lines to the radiator while all prior ones were air cooled and require a different TC and ducted bell housing. The 312 came out in '56 and I know some '56's had air cooling and some had water cooling. Guessing the difference is the 312 (or perhaps all had it once the 312 was introduced). '57 and later all had water cooling as far as I know. Just a consideration.

Thanks. IIRC,the 55 Fords were the last Fords with air cooled auto trans.

That's not really a problem,though. It's easy to install a add-on cooler for the tranny.

And if I have to buy a new radiator because I can't find a new core,it is just as cheap to get one with bottom tanks tapped for AT cooler lines as it is one that isn't.

The ironic part on radiators is I can buy a after-market all-aluminum radiator made specifically to fit into a shoebox for 240 bucks in cluding shipping,and the cheapest brass/copper radiator I have found yet was over 500 bucks.

The ones they make for SBC conversions also work for stock flat 6 engines.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

1956 was change year for the o-matics. The 1955 ones had improvements over the late 1950 ones up through 54. There were more changes over the years but the basic medium case remained very similar clear up to the mid 60s. There are a few guys on the HAMB that know them pretty well. I'm more familiar with the medium case cruise-o-matic ones put into the big T-birds but they all still work basically the same and they also have the same quirks. The only major difference was that the later ones started out in 1st gear instead of 2nd.

All FOM's made before 1959 were actually 3 speed transmissions. The ones made in and after 1959 are two speed transmissions.

IIRC,the 2 speed 59 and later FOM's are easy to identify because they have aluminum cases.

[tubman]

BTW, I'm hip to the Lazarus Long thing. Read much science fiction? I love the old stuff.

[bobH]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Thanks. IIRC,the 55 Fords were the last Fords with air cooled auto trans.

That's not really a problem,though. It's easy to install a add-on cooler for the tranny.

And if I have to buy a new radiator because I can't find a new core,it is just as cheap to get one with bottom tanks tapped for AT cooler lines as it is one that isn't.

The ironic part on radiators is I can buy a after-market all-aluminum radiator made specifically to fit into a shoebox for 240 bucks in cluding shipping,and the cheapest brass/copper radiator I have found yet was over 500 bucks.

The ones they make for SBC conversions also work for stock flat 6 engines.

After buying 6 (SIX) aluminum radiators that are/were cheap POS's, and having them all eaten out by electrolysis, and learning that the material is/was extremely thin, I now have a custom-made genuine brass radiator, perhaps expensive initially, but after a few years, VERY INexpensive. This is all on ONE car that is now 20 years old, and currently has nearly 300K miles. The six radiators all failed within a 4-5 year period. It got so bad that I took to carrying a new, spare radiator on trips. I once changed out the radiator in Death Valley, with very strange looks from folks surprised by my carrying a new spare.
My point, be careful. I'm sure there are some good aluminum radiators out there. I just didn't have good luck on that one car.
On the other hand, I have another car (Jeep) that I've had an aluminum radiator in for over 10 years. No problem with it.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

All FOM's made before 1959 were actually 3 speed transmissions. The ones made in and after 1959 are two speed transmissions.

IIRC,the 2 speed 59 and later FOM's are easy to identify because they have aluminum cases.

The two speeds are the small case version. They are different than the medium case 3-speed versions. Those were all three speeds but the early ones all start in 2nd. You have to manually shift for 1st gear on the early ones. That is just the way they were made. There is also a large case version but they were used in Lincolns.

The mediums were made in cast iron case till the FMX came out. My old 64 T-Bird had a cast iron medium case version.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

There is also a large case version but they were used in Lincolns.

Didn't the flathead Lincolns use a G.M. hydromatic?

[George/Maine]

You don't want a 312 y block did that 50 years ago. Its a hack job.
Best go with V8 flathead with Flatomatic c4 trans. 18 mpg and smooth.

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Didn't the flathead Lincolns use a G.M. hydromatic?

Yes. They used them until a big fire destroyed the plant in 1953. Lincolns used the Borg Warner medium & large type case transmissions after that depending on the motor size.

[LazarusLong]

BTW,i'm back on line in case anybody cares. My old computor died,and one of the first things I did with my new desktop with Win 8.1 was to choose to not save the password in memory,and then lost the damn paper I had it written on.

BTW,those of you who think you hate Micro Soft,just wait until you start dealing with Google and Gmail.

[40 Deluxe]

Lazarus, I applaud your efforts to keep your car original! Anybody can take the easy way out and throw some non-standard parts at it. Until/if you can find the OEM parts, how about adapting the clutch to hand operation? You can easily build a lever/linkage setup tailor made to your preferences. With the O/D trans it won't be that cumbersome to steer, shift and clutch at the same time because the O/D freewheels below 27 MPH. So, left hand on clutch lever, right hand shifts into first. Then right hand on steering wheel as left hand releases clutch. No need for clutch to shift into second, just let up on the gas and it'll slide right in. Same with 3rd under the O/D's 27 MPH activation point. So you don't need to let go of steering wheel to shift. You can even rig a switch to deactivate the O/D at any speed.
On adapting the F-O-M, could you find both a 6 cyl. block plate and a flathead or Y block V8 block plate and compare bolt patterns? Maybe a little drilling will make it fit. V8 bellhousings are more plentiful and I think somewhere along the line they were aluminum so the appropriate ears could be welded on. Same with flexplates.
As far as parts go, at least some clutch plates and seals were the same from 1951 through the end of FMX production in the '80's! So a typical overhaul should not be a problem, although the early models with a rear pump may be scarce on hard parts, if any are needed (often not). You could even adapt a complete cast iron FMX which looks just like the original F-O-M. Plus, the FMX uses a vacuum modulator instead of the complicated throttle linkage to control shifting. It still has the full-throttle kickdown lever, but that's easy to make.

[LazarusLong]

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Originally Posted by oldskool

I believe bendtsens makes a adaptor/kit to install a ford AOD trans for 6 cyl fords..

Thanks,but I really want to keep it as close to original as possible. Given my history,if I start putting a C4 or AOD in it,I'd be putting a 302 or FE ahead of the trans and it wouldn't be the same car.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

There are virtually no differences between the transmissions. The bell housings are what determined which engine it fit. In your case you would need the proper bell housing as well as the torque converter/starter gear which in itself requires a different starter/bendix combination.
Then there's the rear motor mount, which is probably different.
And there is the accelerator to transmission kick down linkage.
You mentioned requiring an automatic column which should have a neutral safety switch attached and properly wired.
Don't know what the Ford rear gear ratio would be but the Merc.'s are 3.31

I pretty much have everything already except for the flat 6 FOM bellhousing. AFAIK,it may even be the same as the V-8 bellhousing.

The Fords with automatic have the same gear ratios as the auto 49-51 Mercs and Lincolns,but IIRC,the Merc and Lincoln axles are longer. I just agreed to buy a complete 51 Ford 3:31 rear,and will be going to pick it up early next week. Getting the FOM 51 brake pedal assembly with frame brackets from the same guy.

I bought a NOS 51 FOM trans a couple of months ago,but it had been stored in a metal building with no atf in it for over 20 years,and the damn thing was a mass of rust inside. The good news is it is a correct 51 trans with the short tailshaft and doen't have the long tube to check fluid levels. I bought a 55 FOM trans in good used condition recently,and will take the parts from it to put in the 51 case.

Or more correctly have a pro I know do the work. He was rebuilding these things when they were brand new in 51.

The one part I don't have and will probably never find is the correct flat 6 carb with the FOM dashpot on it.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Does the crank on the 6 need to be machined for the t.c. hub?

Not as far as I know.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by scicala

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-FORDOMA...item339c7e193a


I did find this link to a 1951 Fordomatic brochure on EBAY. If you look at one of the pages and blow it up, it says the Fordomatic was available for V8 and 6 cylinder engines. So guessing it was available with the 226 6 cyl., but doesn't mean there are any out there.

Sal

I own that same brochure,as well as a few others,now. Ford even bragged in their advertising about how their new auto trans worked so well it could be used with their base 6 cylinder engine and there was no need to order a optional engine if you wanted an automatic trans.

What they didn't want to say is that the flat 6 only has 5 less hp than the flat V-8,but also has more torque.

BTW,Ford quit advertising the availability of the FOM with the flat 6 in mid-year,so I am guessing not many were sold.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

Didn't the flathead Lincolns use a G.M. hydromatic?

Yes,a 4-speed one. I have a 50 Lincoln Cosmopolitan with all the options for that year,including power windows,seats,hydro trans,and even a rear window wiper.

Need to drag it out one day to take some current photos and put it up for sale.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

... how about adapting the clutch to hand operation? .

No can do. Can't even make a fist with either hand now due to breaking both hands and several fingers several times when younger Arthritis.

It's really becoming a problem with my knees and shoulders,too. Have cortizone shots in both shoulders so I can dress myself. Separated both of them a bunch of times,too.

As for the bellhousing problem,I now have both a spare flat 6 bellhosing,as well as a V-8 flathead and a V-8 Y-block bellhousing. Soon as I get caught up on a bunch of other stuff,I am going to see if the flat 6 bell will bolt to a Y-Block block I have laying around. If not I will just have to cut ad weld a v-8 and the spare flat 6 bellhousing together. I already have a 51 torque converter with the starter ring and a V-8 starter I can use.

It's all a process. Right now I am focusing on finding a good steering box to buy,or finding the parts to rebuild mine,as well as fixing the holes in the floor and putting a new tailpipe on the car so it doesn't gas me to death riding down the road.

[Drbrown]

In my adjacent thread questioning longevity of F-O-M's, one Barn Member raved about how his 6 with F-O-M performed.

Google "F-O-M" and find good info. They were designed by Borg-Warner. One web site reports '51 thru '54 F-O-M's are interchangeable except the '51 gear case is shorter thus requiring its corresponding longer drive shaft.

Regardless, the above responses indicate finding a proper bell housing is the problem. Other parts/changes needed (throttle rod linkage to carb, kick-down on gas pedal, steering column, rear end pin/pinion, etc.

Sounds like an alternative choice might be the better or only way to go.

[George/Maine]

You maybe better the buy a 50 ford with a Camaro Clip you would be surprised to see how nice power steering is.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Drbrown

In my adjacent thread questioning longevity of F-O-M's, one Barn Member raved about how his 6 with F-O-M performed.

Google "F-O-M" and find good info. They were designed by Borg-Warner. One web site reports '51 thru '54 F-O-M's are interchangeable except the '51 gear case is shorter thus requiring its corresponding longer drive shaft.

Regardless, the above responses indicate finding a proper bell housing is the problem. Other parts/changes needed (throttle rod linkage to carb, kick-down on gas pedal, steering column, rear end pin/pinion, etc.

Sounds like an alternative choice might be the better or only way to go.

Thanks,I will check that out later.

I have found out since my original post that 51-54 Studebakers used the same auto transmissions as Fords. Back "in the day" a guy I know used to go to the Stude dealer to buy parts to rebuild FOM's because Studebaker charged less for the same parts.

What is unique to 1951 only is the short tailshaft. All of the FOM's up to 1959 used the same gear case except for the Hi-Po 312's In 59 Ford came out with the aluminum-cased FOM,that was the first true 2 speed Ford auto trans.

BTW,the 51 and 52 FOM's are the same tranmsissions from the rear of the gear case forward. They both have short dipsticks on the right front of the oil pan,and to check or add fluid you had to pull back the floor mat,remove a rubber plug from the transmission tunnel,,and then pull the dipstick out to check fluid level or add fluid.

Beginning in 1953 they all had the long tube in front of the firewall to hold the dipstick and use as a filler pipe for the fluid.

I now have every part I need to make the conversion using factory parts,except for the 6 cylinder flathead bellhousing. If necessary,I will cut and add the front part of a flat 6 bellhousing to the V-8 flathead bellhousing I have so I can get it to work. I'd rather buy one,but one way or another I am going to use an original FOM transmission.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

You maybe better the buy a 50 ford with a Camaro Clip you would be surprised to see how nice power steering is.

I have always found it odd that grandmothers had no trouble driving cars without power steering before the late 1950's.but now men think it is too hard to drive without it.

Right up front,I HATE frame clips. Seems like 9 out of 10 were hacked together,and even the ones that weren't look like scabs on a sore.

This is all very personal regardless of who you are or where you stand on modifications,but as for me,if I wanted a car to drive and ride like a modern car,I'd buy a modern car. I like old cars because of the memories of my childhood that driving and riding in them bring me. Change that and I would lose the memories.

BTW,I do have a car with a Camaro frame clip and drivetrain. It's a 1948 Plymouth coupe. I purchased it done that way because the price was right,and it was a running and driving car. Sort of,anyway. Everything was done half-assed and had to be finished or redone.

[TJ]

Since Job Lot is closing up shop did you call them to see if they might have a bell housing? They had a lot of NOS parts. Also try Louis Cote' in Nevada. He's listed in the V-8 Club roster. He also has a lot of NOS parts.

[George/Maine]

I drive a 1954 ford stick 6 with OD and manual steering we do get used to PS.
I think if you want a auto trans my guess , find OHV 6 with auto trans they are easier to find and bolt in. Y block waste of time I did that 52 years ago but it was fun when I was younger. Now to old and gray take the easy way.

[rotorwrench]

From all the information I could find, The sales information touts the FOMs for all engines but it was mid model year in 1950 that most of that info came from. FoMoCo never completed the FOM for the H model 6 and they knew that in just a few months they would be introducing the new OHV 215 6-cylinder so they concentrated their engineering on that project.

I friend of mine had a 53 with a 215 & 3 on the tree and that old car ran well. It had a lot of torque and would wind up pretty quick so it was a good off the line car. It surprised a lot of opponents in street races. You might consider one for a period type mod. Those little Ford 215s were highly underestimated. Now with a FOM it was probably a tad bit more docile but it would have worked well enough. The Auto trans are generally had a taller gearing but the rear axle from a 51 is not much different that for a 52.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by TJ

Since Job Lot is closing up shop did you call them to see if they might have a bell housing? They had a lot of NOS parts. Also try Louis Cote' in Nevada. He's listed in the V-8 Club roster. He also has a lot of NOS parts.

Thank you for the tip. They are closed today,but I will call them early Monday mornging.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

From all the information I could find, The sales information touts the FOMs for all engines but it was mid model year in 1950 that most of that info came from. FoMoCo never completed the FOM for the H model 6 and they knew that in just a few months they would be introducing the new OHV 215 6-cylinder so they concentrated their engineering on that project.

I friend of mine had a 53 with a 215 & 3 on the tree and that old car ran well. It had a lot of torque and would wind up pretty quick so it was a good off the line car. It surprised a lot of opponents in street races. You might consider one for a period type mod. Those little Ford 215s were highly underestimated. Now with a FOM it was probably a tad bit more docile but it would have worked well enough. The Auto trans are generally had a taller gearing but the rear axle from a 51 is not much different that for a 52.

I have their sales brochures from 51,and for the first few months Ford was bragging about how their new auto trans worked so well you didn't have to order the optional V-8 engine to get it. From what I understand,about mid-year they quit advertising the FOM with the 6,and had never heard of anyone owing one until yesterday. One poster on this site mentioned another poster here that was always bragging about how quick his flat 6 51 with the FOM was.

I'm guessing they must have sold a few,but damn few.

[tubman]

This is an interesting subject. Personally, I have never seen one (a flathead 6 with a F-O-M) or even heard of one, and I have been around a long time. I am staring to think this was a combination that was talked about, but probably never made it into production. Can anyone refute this?

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

This is an interesting subject. Personally, I have never seen one (a flathead 6 with a F-O-M) or even heard of one, and I have been around a long time. I am staring to think this was a combination that was talked about, but probably never made it into production. Can anyone refute this?

In post number 52 on this thread Drbrown writes: "In my adjacent thread questioning longevity of F-O-M's, one Barn Member raved about how his 6 with F-O-M performed."

I don't know if the guy was raving about a OHV 52 or newer 6,or the flat 6 of 1951.

[tubman]

I saw that as well, and though there was nothing definite, I think he was referring to an overhead 6. I do know that when I was in high school, a friends parents bought a new '54 with a six and Ford-a-Matic, and he could beat our flatheads with it (and quite soundly, too.) I probably had about 80,000 less miles on it,

[LazarusLong]

Update for anyone still following this thread.

I now have pretty much everything I need to make the swap,except for a flat 6 FOM bellhousing ,a 1 brl flat 6 carb with the correct FOM dashpot,and a FOM driveshaft. I have agreed to buy a FOM driveshaft from a guy in Mo,and am waiting to hear from him on shipping.

I have a spare flat 6 manual shift bellhousing and flat 8 manual shift bellhousing,and if worse comes to worse,I can always cut and weld them together to make one.

I now have the car running,steering (changed the steering box),handling,and stopping like a new one,and am driving it pretty much every day it isn't raining.

I just can't imagine anyone being happier with a car than I am this old beat-up 51 business coupe. Hope to start in sanding down and priming sections of the body this week to prime and paint with whatever spray cans I happen to have in order to preserve it for the time when I will be restoring the body,paint,and interior. The car was sanded down to the bare metal at some time in the past,and then painted without using primer. Over time,maybe 4 different colors. Even the dash has color popping off and leaving bare metal with no primer.

Going to sand it down to the bare metal again,and then prime it with self-etching primer using a roller and spray cans. I will use spray cans and a roller to shoot temporary color over it to in order to keep it from rusting again.

Pulled the seats out of it and installed one bucket seat from a Honda so I can start doing patch work on the floors on the passenger side,and do some wiring work under the dash as I find the time.

Which is good because I need to pause on the "throw cash at it for parts and labor" phase,and morph into the "don't spend much money and do labor on it" phrase.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

I have a spare flat 6 manual shift bellhousing and flat 8 manual shift bellhousing,and if worse comes to worse,I can always cut and weld them together to make one.

I don't see how this can help; perhaps you meant a "flat 8 automatic bellhousing"?

[38 coupe]

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I hate to be the bringer of bad news but I remember a discussion in the V8 Times advisor section where the 49-51 advisor concluded that Ford never did make a six cylinder FOM in 1951. You may want to contact the advisor, Cecil Goff, to get the details on how he came to this conclusion.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

I hate to be the bringer of bad news but I remember a discussion in the V8 Times advisor section where the 49-51 advisor concluded that Ford never did make a six cylinder FOM in 1951. You may want to contact the advisor, Cecil Goff, to get the details on how he came to this conclusion.

This is what I think as well. The bellhousing would have been a one year only item, and I can't see Ford tooling up for it as an extra cost option on an automobile meant to be a price leader. It'd be nice to know what really went down.

[scicala]

LazarusLong bought the factory brochure on EBAY that I found, that said the Fordomatic was available on 6 and 8 cyl. engines in 1951. I just think there may be a couple out there, but so rare that nobody (here anyway) has ever seen one.

Sal

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

I saw that as well, and though there was nothing definite, I think he was referring to an overhead 6. I do know that when I was in high school, a friends parents bought a new '54 with a six and Ford-a-Matic, and he could beat our flatheads with it (and quite soundly, too.) I probably had about 80,000 less miles on it,

I think you may be right on that. 51 was the first year of the FOM,and people back then were hesitant to try anything new. By 52 when the OHV inline 6 came out the FOM already had a good reputation for reliability,and it was a dream come true for people who lived and drove in hilly territory.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

I don't see how this can help; perhaps you meant a "flat 8 automatic bellhousing"?

Sorry,while it is true I have several flat 8 standard shift bellhousings,I also now have two Flat 8 FOM bellhousings. I just bought the second one this weekend by accident from a guy that had a complete and operational FOM he had just pulled from his 51 Victoria because he wanted to put a C4 in it. I drove 300 miles one way to pick it up,and damned if it didn't come with the FOM bellhousing,torque converter,flex plate,2 6V FOM starters, and the 51 FOM driveshaft yoke.

That's the kind of surprise I can learn to live with

Pretty much all I am missing now is the single barrel carb with the dash pot,which I will probably never find and will end up using a newer carb from a 216 or 223,and the FOM speedo cable,which can be bought any day of the week you want to buy one.

Oh,and the correct bellhousing,which I will probably never find. I am going to keep looking,but I have pretty much accepted having to cut and weld one of the Flat 8 FOM bellhousings to my spare flat 6 standard shift bellhousing in order to make one.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by scicala

LazarusLong bought the factory brochure on EBAY that I found, that said the Fordomatic was available on 6 and 8 cyl. engines in 1951. I just think there may be a couple out there, but so rare that nobody (here anyway) has ever seen one.

Sal

I had another guy on another board say he checked with the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn,and even they don't know if a flat 6 was ever sold with a FOM. We all know it was in the sales literature as a option at the start of 51,but by mid year they had quit advertising it was available with the flat 6 engine.

If the Henry Ford museum can't find any evidence of any being made or sold,chances are they are pretty rare.

The good news is that IF one can be found,I should be able to buy it pretty cheap because I have to be the only one out there that even wants it.

Face it,people in 1951 tended to be more frugal than the people of today,and anybody "frugal" enough to buy a base car with a flat 6 engine wasn't going to pop for another couple of hundred dollars for something that was going to give them less gas mileage. They would pay extra for a overdrive,radio,and heater,but not for a auto trans.

The people with the bucks to spend that wanted to spend it bought a Crestliner or a Victoria,not base cars.

[rotorwrench]

The problem is that FoMoCo was also frugal, even with the younger Henry Ford III at the helm. Several long time contributors to the Early Ford V8 Club magazine have come to the conclusion that the H-6 never had an automatic transmission mated when this question was asked of them. This info is from folks with years of Ford experience behind them. That makes it about as rare as it gets. Since the Ford flathead 6 already used a back plate, it would be a matter of fabricating a back plate to fit the 6 cylinder block with machining to take the FOM transmission bell. If you know a good machinist, an adapter could be fabricated. The Crankshaft may also need a recess if the one that's there is not big enough. The other thing may be the drive flex plate or starter drive. Since there are virtually no FOM flex plates for the H6, one would have to be fabricated unless the V8 part would just happen to fit. The difference in location of the starters between the V8 & the 6 is another problem that might arise. The FOM has no modulator so the throttle linkages would have to be fabricated and made to adjust properly for shift function. The list goes on.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by Ross F-1

Does the crank on the 6 need to be machined for the t.c. hub?

I have no idea. I now have a rebuilt 51 FOM sitting on my shop floor,a torque converter,and a flex plate. I also have a flat 6 in a 50 parts car I will pull so I can try to marry all this stuff on my shop floor where I can see what I am doing.

Now that you have mentioned the back of the crank,I am going to have to check to see if the back of a 50 226 crank is different than the back of a 51 226 crank.

Sorry for the late reply.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

I don't see how this can help; perhaps you meant a "flat 8 automatic bellhousing"?

Yes,I did. Thanks for the correction.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by toby

A Fordomatic was not offered in 51 for a 226, 6 cylinder. .....

Yet Ford advertising says they were.

[lio45]

In any case, with your custom bellhousing you will truly have an unique yet period-correct '51 coupe... whether or not FoMoCo made a handful of them or zero, you'll probably have the only one in existence at the moment!

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by lio45

In any case, with your custom bellhousing you will truly have an unique yet period-correct '51 coupe... whether or not FoMoCo made a handful of them or zero, you'll probably have the only one in existence at the moment!

And I am going to have a TO of fun by lying and telling people I bought it like that,

[lio45]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Face it,people in 1951 tended to be more frugal than the people of today,and anybody "frugal" enough to buy a base car with a flat 6 engine wasn't going to pop for another couple of hundred dollars for something that was going to give them less gas mileage. They would pay extra for a overdrive,radio,and heater,but not for a auto trans.

The people with the bucks to spend that wanted to spend it bought a Crestliner or a Victoria,not base cars.

I was actually thinking about your logic, and I believe I have an irrefutable argument to offer to counter it: your own example!

Out of the more than one million buyers who bought Fords in 1951, it's entirely plausible that there were a few frugal war vets with knee problems and/or a bad left leg, and their powertrain of choice would be the same as yours... the inline 6 mated to the Ford-O-Matic

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by lio45

I was actually thinking about your logic, and I believe I have an irrefutable argument to offer to counter it: your own example!

Out of the more than one million buyers who bought Fords in 1951, it's entirely plausible that there were a few frugal war vets with knee problems and/or a bad left leg, and their powertrain of choice would be the same as yours... the inline 6 mated to the Ford-O-Matic

Yes,but they had other options. They could have just bought a V-8 Ford coupe,or bought a GM or Studebaker with a automatic. Chances are any Ford dealer back then would have sold a V-8 Ford coupe to a one-legged vet for the same price as a flathead 6 coupe.

I even have a 51 Victoria with the V-8 engine and FOM transmission myself. I was driving it yesterday.

[LazarusLong]

Update in case anyone is interested.

I now have a rebuilt short-shaft 51 FOM,the driveshaft, the correct 3.3:31 rear end,torque converter,flex plate,and I recently bought a Ford 6 cylinder bellhousing and starter plate for a 51 pu.

I even bought a junk 50 Ford tudor with the flat 6 in it so I could pull the engine and do all the figuring and misfiguring on how and what to do while the engine and trans sat on my shop floor so I could see what I am doing.

I believe the 6 cylinder truck bellhousing and starter plate will be the key to making a easy adapter. It will be months before I get around to it,but I will update this thread once I get started if anyone is interested.

Still looking for a 51 Ford carb with the auto trans dashpot,though.

[JSeery]

Have you looked into making an adapter plate between the 6 block and the V8 bellhousing?

[LazarusLong]

I don't have a V-8 bellhousing,and never bothered to try to find one because several people told me it wouldn't bolt to the flat 6 block and there would be starter problems.

The 6 cylinder truck bellhousing is really open at the back with a big circular flat spot to bolt an adapter plate to,and then bolt the trans to the adapter plate.

Or at least that is my theory at the moment.

[JSeery]

Didn't think about the starter! A plate at the bellhousing/transmission would be better.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Didn't think about the starter! A plate at the bellhousing/transmission would be better.

And that is the plate I have to make to bolt the transmission to the bellhousing. The truck bellhousing will make it simple.

[scicala]

"Still looking for a 51 Ford carb with the auto trans dashpot, though."




Hi LazarusLong,


Accordiing to my old Holley parts and specs manual, they never made a carb for the 226 six cyl. with FOM. They only list carbs for manual trans cars. Pretty sure this was because they never really offered carbs with dashpots until after 1951 or so (1, 2 or 4 barrel).
If you have a manual trans carb already, you should be fine. Any trans downshift linkage would be before the carb, and not on the carb.
The Holley part numbers are R-428A (Ford # 7HA-9510-A) and R537AS (Ford # 8HA-9510-A). Carb is a Model 847-FS. Cast on the side of the bowl should be 7HA ('49), 8HA ('50) and 1HA ('51)


Sal

[LazarusLong]

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Originally Posted by scicala

"Still looking for a 51 Ford carb with the auto trans dashpot, though."




Hi LazarusLong,


Accordiing to my old Holley parts and specs manual, they never made a carb for the 226 six cyl. with FOM. They only list carbs for manual trans cars. Pretty sure this was because they never really offered carbs with dashpots until after 1951 or so (1, 2 or 4 barrel).
If you have a manual trans carb already, you should be fine. Any trans downshift linkage would be before the carb, and not on the carb.
The Holley part numbers are R-428A (Ford # 7HA-9510-A) and R537AS (Ford # 8HA-9510-A). Carb is a Model 847-FS. Cast on the side of the bowl should be 7HA ('49), 8HA ('50) and 1HA ('51)


Sal

I thank you much for the very detailed reply,Sal. I am positive you are right,but since I will be running 3 glass bowl Holley 1904's on the flat 6,that question is pretty mute. I can easily get a dash pot and bracket for the middle 1904. Probably already have one in my misc pile of carbs. People used to have spare carbs they would give away all the time years ago,so I just took them.

The most recent FOM/Carb question was about the carb on the V-8 flathead in my 51 Victoria. They seem to be made of unobtainium also,but I solved the problem by buying a junker 2 barrel Holley 2100-DD EAB-D off a guy on ebay for $54. It came off a V-8 flathead 52 Ford with the FOM,and already had the bracket (most important part) and the dashpot on it. I know the dashpot is junk,but I was happy to see it so I could visually identify it as being identical to a NOS one offered on ebay for 30 bucks.

The choke is rusted up and the carb was sold as a core by the junkyard selling it,but ain't they all cores after sitting around for a few decades? I'll soak it for a while in Kroil or sometime similar to free it up,and then clean it and put a kit in it and be in business.

For some reason this carb is listed for the 52 and 53 Flat V-8's,but not for the 51. I can't believe the 51 3 bolt Stromberg 94 variation was a one year only deal,but don't really care at this point. It will bolt right onto my 51 engine and it has the dash pot and the bracket.

Lots of time and grief wasted trying to get a car right I bought to fix and sell,but they sure are easier to sell if they aren't stumbling and cutting off when you stop or try to take off again.

BTW,the dash pot was used on FoMoCo engines with 2 brl Holley/Stromberg carbs up until the late 50's and for sale all over,but the bracket is unique to the flathead V-8's.

Yes,I AM keeping the Plane Jane flat 6 cylinder business coupe and selling the fancy V-8 Victoria. I never make any claim on clever.

[scicala]

OK then. My misunderstanding. I thought you were looking for a carb for the flat six.


I may be a little like you Lazarus. I would rather have a coupe than a Victoria too.


Sal

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by scicala

OK then. My misunderstanding. I thought you were looking for a carb for the flat six.


I may be a little like you Lazarus. I would rather have a coupe than a Victoria too.


Sal

The odd thing is that when I was a kid,the shoebox coupes and the mopar "3 window coupes" of the 40's were my least favorite cars. Now that I am a geezer,I love the damn things. Besides the 51 Ford business coupe,I have a 42 Dodge business coupe.

I am also a huge fan of inline engines. I could even get talked into buying a 49-51 Chevy Fleetline 4dr if I could find a inline 6 302 GMC engine.

And,"yeah,I DO have a 300 cube Ford OHV six laying around that COULD be put in the 51 coupe,but I am already emotionally and financially invested in hopping up the old original 226 flathead. Bought a 3x1 Knudsen intake for it,3 glassbowl Holley 1 brls,and a NOS Edmunds Racing finned aluminum head. Now I am looking for a set of cast iron headers to seal the deal. I may have to go with tube headers,but if I can find a set of cast iron ones I can afford,I'm going to buy them.

[scicala]

Sounds like your going to have one sweet flathead six, that will blow off the V8's of the same era.


Sal

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by scicala

Sounds like your going to have one sweet flathead six, that will blow off the V8's of the same era.


Sal

I suspect it will,but I am doing it for the look,the sound,and the nostalgia. I honestly don't care how fast it goes,as long as it makes those sweet "inline 6 dual exhaust with a cam and glasspacks" sounds.

The same reason I am putting a dual-quad Y-block in my 34 Ford pu,and running a 90's 3 speed manual floor shift truck transmission behind it. That long shift lever with a 39 Ford knob or beer tap screwed on to the top of it will look like a 39 Ford trans.

[mfirth]

Just keep the O/d trans. My 1st car was a 50 6cyl with overdrive. It was a GR8 combo & would run as good as any stock v8. Good m p g too. mike

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by mfirth

Just keep the O/d trans. My 1st car was a 50 6cyl with overdrive. It was a GR8 combo & would run as good as any stock v8. Good m p g too. mike

Easy to say,but my left leg keeps getting infected due to a botched operation at the VA,and the VA keeps wanting to amputate it at the knee.

In fact,I have been wearing a Uniboot on it for a month already,and my get another one this coming Thursday,depending on if it is still infected and draining pus when I go back to the local doc. I stay away from VA docs when it comes to my leg.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

And that is the plate I have to make to bolt the transmission to the bellhousing. The truck bellhousing will make it simple.

And just what are you going to use for a torque-converter.
Doubt that the original will fit in the truck bell housing.

[rotorwrench]

The old FOM was air cooled so it has a monster of a bell housing plus the big finned torque converter. A person might consider a compromise by finding a later 55 plus transmission with an oil cooler set up. The plate that bolts to the block can be fabricated to fit a number of different possible transmission applications but the starter location plays a part in this install. An air cooled transmission may be useable but a person should study the later 215 or 223 OHV six applications and look for similarities that could be useful in this project.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT

And just what are you going to use for a torque-converter.
Doubt that the original will fit in the truck bell housing.

I will find out when I go to put it together. One thing is for certain,it will be easier to cut and modify the stamped steel bellhousing than it would be to make one from scratch.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The old FOM was air cooled so it has a monster of a bell housing plus the big finned torque converter. A person might consider a compromise by finding a later 55 plus transmission with an oil cooler set up. The plate that bolts to the block can be fabricated to fit a number of different possible transmission applications but the starter location plays a part in this install. An air cooled transmission may be useable but a person should study the later 215 or 223 OHV six applications and look for similarities that could be useful in this project.

In fact I just happen to have a 55-56 Ford pu bellhousing,as well as the transmission and the Y-Block that goes with it. The 55-56's were still air-cooled,and I understand some of the 57's were,too. Bought the complete set from a guy that pulled them from his stock pu to put a 302 and AOD in it to keep them from being scrapped. I am more of a Y-block fan than I am a flathead fan,and really hate to see a good or rebuildable one go to the scrap yard.

Not that it matters,the bosses are there on the cases so you can tap them and run a oil cooler if you want.

BTW,the ironic part of all this is I probably already had a carb that would work that already has the factory dash pot on it that it still bolted to the truck engine. If I had known what the bracket and dash pot looked like,I could have saved myself a lot of time and a few bucks.

Oh,well. If my flat 6 goes bad,I have a Y-Block engine and trans I can put in it and still be able to go motoring.

[rotorwrench]

The 215/223 6-cylinder type FOM transmissions were all air cooled. The V8 types were air cooled till 1955 when the radiator cooling system was developed. I don't think they felt the six developed enough torque to need oil cooling so they just didn't do it.

If you are wanting an automatic transmission and it has to be a Ford-O-Matic, then you might think about the oil cooled types. They have less bulk anyway. The Cruise-O-Matic is a better transmission since it is a dual range full 3-speed and it can be updated with modern torque converters. Its kick down & control set up is much better than the old FOM but all of them have their quirks.

If I was going for an automatic transmission for a six, I'd choose the best one for the job and that would be the C4. They have been using them with flatheads for some time and it would be a much easier installation. The FOM needs all the control for kick down and that alone will be complicated to sort out. All the C4 would need is a vacuum modulator line & simple kick down control. A person can use a plain type oil cooler if no oil cooled radiator is available.

A Y-block can be fit in the shoe box but it is a tight squeeze and all the mountings will need to be fabricated. The cooling system will require mods too. Ford OHV V8s are long engines compared to flathead V8s.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

The 215/223 6-cylinder type FOM transmissions were all air cooled. The V8 types were air cooled till 1955 when the radiator cooling system was developed. I don't think they felt the six developed enough torque to need oil cooling so they just didn't do it.

If you are wanting an automatic transmission and it has to be a Ford-O-Matic, then you might think about the oil cooled types. They have less bulk anyway. The Cruise-O-Matic is a better transmission since it is a dual range full 3-speed and it can be updated with modern torque converters. Its kick down & control set up is much better than the old FOM but all of them have their quirks.

If I was going for an automatic transmission for a six, I'd choose the best one for the job and that would be the C4. They have been using them with flatheads for some time and it would be a much easier installation. The FOM needs all the control for kick down and that alone will be complicated to sort out. All the C4 would need is a vacuum modulator line & simple kick down control. A person can use a plain type oil cooler if no oil cooled radiator is available.

A Y-block can be fit in the shoe box but it is a tight squeeze and all the mountings will need to be fabricated. The cooling system will require mods too. Ford OHV V8s are long engines compared to flathead V8s.

Thank you.I know all that to be true,but Ford advertised the flat 6 was available with the FOM trans in 1951,and I am determined to recreate it. Even if he never actually produced any of them.

If I just wanted to go riding,I have a good 302 and C4 I could install. I do want to go riding,but I want to go riding the way I want to go riding,and my first love was 50's style hot rods.

[tubman]

Regarding Ford advertising the "H" motor/FOM combination; print material generally has a long lead time, and sometimes the advertising guys are ahead of the engineers. I remember seeing a Ford brochure that showed a '51 Crestliner with '50 Crestliner type trim. (If you remember, the '51 has the straight side trim similar to a regular Custom in addition to the unique curved Crestliner trim while the '50 has only the curved trim.) It's not too surprising that the ad boys would produce a brochure showing the '51 with '50 style trim, given the lead time required for brochures. I think this is what happened with the "H" motor/FOM combination; it sounded like a good idea at the time, but.....

I have tried to find the brochure again (I think it was on the H.A.M.B.) but have had no luck. I may be all wet, because I'm working strictly from memory here, but I do remember being particularly struck by it.

[LazarusLong]

Given that the stock flat 6 has 26 ft.lbs torque than the flat V-8,I think it was an excellent idea.

BTW,I own at least one version of that brochure,maybe two.

Party of the copy reads "The new Fordomatic transmission is so efficient you don't have to order the extra-cost V-8 engine to get it!"

For some odd reason Ford forgot to mention the flat 6 has 26 ft lbs more torque than the V-8,and only 5 less horsepower.

It got even worse for the flat V-8 when the 215 OHV 6 was offered in 52.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by LazarusLong

Given that the stock flat 6 has 26 ft.lbs torque than the flat V-8,I think it was an excellent idea.

BTW,I own at least one version of that brochure,maybe two.

Party of the copy reads "The new Fordomatic transmission is so efficient you don't have to order the extra-cost V-8 engine to get it!"

For some odd reason Ford forgot to mention the flat 6 has 26 ft lbs more torque than the V-8,and only 5 less horsepower.

It got even worse for the flat V-8 when the 215 OHV 6 was offered in 52.

Lazarus, I admire your tenacity! Please continue to ignore the armchair expert naysayers! You seem to have already anticipated possible problems.
Have you looked for early issue '51 shop and parts manuals that may list this combo? Also Hollander Interchange Manuals of the day may even cover this.
Factories have released repair info on options that died at birth. Some include electronic fuel injection on '57 Ramblers and Chryslers, GM Wankel rotaries in the '70's, two speed accessory drive for 5.0 HO Mustangs, and more. These got far enough along that Chilton and Motor Manuals printed the information. Finding pictures and part numbers in Ford manuals would go a long way. Maybe even an early '51 Owner's Manual may have something.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Lazarus, I admire your tenacity! Please continue to ignore the armchair expert naysayers! You seem to have already anticipated possible problems.
Have you looked for early issue '51 shop and parts manuals that may list this combo? Also Hollander Interchange Manuals of the day may even cover this.
Factories have released repair info on options that died at birth. Some include electronic fuel injection on '57 Ramblers and Chryslers, GM Wankel rotaries in the '70's, two speed accessory drive for 5.0 HO Mustangs, and more. These got far enough along that Chilton and Motor Manuals printed the information. Finding pictures and part numbers in Ford manuals would go a long way. Maybe even an early '51 Owner's Manual may have something.

There's a '51 FordOMatic brochure on ebay #162097875060

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Lazarus, I admire your tenacity! Please continue to ignore the armchair expert naysayers! You seem to have already anticipated possible problems.
Have you looked for early issue '51 shop and parts manuals that may list this combo? Also Hollander Interchange Manuals of the day may even cover this.
Factories have released repair info on options that died at birth. Some include electronic fuel injection on '57 Ramblers and Chryslers, GM Wankel rotaries in the '70's, two speed accessory drive for 5.0 HO Mustangs, and more. These got far enough along that Chilton and Motor Manuals printed the information. Finding pictures and part numbers in Ford manuals would go a long way. Maybe even an early '51 Owner's Manual may have something.

I realize I'm late to the party, but did some looking on ebay: item #253516876868 Intro to '51 Fordomatic (1950 copyright) says: "the Fordomatic performs equally well with the 100 HP V-8 or the 95 HP Ford Six." Item #280858205718 is a '49-'51 Parts Manual on CD. And many more.

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

Lazarus, I admire your tenacity! Please continue to ignore the armchair expert naysayers! You seem to have already anticipated possible problems.
Have you looked for early issue '51 shop and parts manuals that may list this combo? Also Hollander Interchange Manuals of the day may even cover this.
Factories have released repair info on options that died at birth. Some include electronic fuel injection on '57 Ramblers and Chryslers, GM Wankel rotaries in the '70's, two speed accessory drive for 5.0 HO Mustangs, and more. These got far enough along that Chilton and Motor Manuals printed the information. Finding pictures and part numbers in Ford manuals would go a long way. Maybe even an early '51 Owner's Manual may have something.

Good advise. I have the Motors Manuals and shop manuals,but no love there with the 51's. They are probably covered under the 1952 models,though. Now that you have reminded me,I will look.

[rotorwrench]

I have a 1949 thru 1953 parts catalog and they only list the Ford-O-Matic with the 239 8-cylinder V8. No listings for 6-cylinder till 1952 with the 215 OHV.

[tubman]

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As I said; over-exuberant ad copywriters.

It's an occupational hazard with them.

[rotorwrench]

It's going to be difficult to recreate something that never existed.

[tubman]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

It's going to be difficult to recreate something that never existed.

But, on the other hand, they never made 'em with 3 carbs either.

Have at it, Lazurus!

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I have a 1949 thru 1953 parts catalog and they only list the Ford-O-Matic with the 239 8-cylinder V8. No listings for 6-cylinder till 1952 with the 215 OHV.

Thanks!

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by tubman

As I said; over-exuberant ad copywriters.

It's an occupational hazard with them.

Oh,well. "Stuff happens".

[LazarusLong]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

It's going to be difficult to recreate something that never existed.

I don't let little things like that bother me. If I create it,it happened.

And who is to say it NEVER happened originally? I have a hard time believing anyone as tight at Ford would allow all that sales literature to be printed and distributed unless he had 500 or so of them on the lot,ready to be shipped.

Even if he did,they wouldn't have been big sellers back then because people so "thrifty" they would buy the flat 6 are not likely to spend what was then a large amount of extra money to buy a transmission that would give them worse gas mileage.

*I* am GUESSING that if initial sales were bad,Ford would just have the cars refitting with standard transmissions rather than admit to making a marketing mistake.

Not that I really care other than to satisfy my own curiosity because once I get the flat 6 engine pulled from the parts car I bought,I am going to do whatever it is I need to do to mate the rebuilt 51 FOM with it so I will be ready to bolt the engine and trans in my coupe when I put it back together.

Until then,I'm just going to keep driving it.

[rotorwrench]

The 1949 Ford and the 1949 Mercury were slated to go into production in 1948 but it didn't happen. The 1948 Bonus Built trucks were the only one to make it on line that year.

They may have started into a project to do the 226/FOM in 1951 but they barely got any automatics on line for the Ford & Mercury V8. It was a mid year thing starting in early 1951. With the 215 already in production planing for the start of the 1952 model year, they most likely blew it all off and concentrated on the 215 OHV project. For it not to be in the parts book, it most likely never got past anything but a prototype stage and that may never have been completed or even started. This was in the Korean war time frame and materials were tight. Building an all new 6 cylinder plus the Lincoln & truck Y-block engines were a big undertaking for Ford and just two years later they were doing it all over again with the Y-block V8s for Fords & Mercurys. Best laid plans of mice and men. Murphy is always lurking there somewhere.

Henry Ford Jr or Hank the Deuce was almost as frugal as his grandad but not quite so much. He was getting well entrenched in planning and was still getting new personnel to help with design & styling. They did a decent job of keeping up with GM & Chrysler even though it was still basically a family run business.

[40 Deluxe]

They did exist! I've been going through a Popular Science magazine archive on Google Books. The December 1950 issue had a road test on the 1951 Ford and Mercury with the Fordomatic trans. Here is a quote from the test driver Wilber Shaw, an Indy 500 racer of the era. This is at the bottom of page 96: "My first mount was a Ford Six with the new transmission. I was glad that a six was available. It would be new to me."

[LazarusLong]

Thank you! I knew they had to exist,but I have pretty much given up on finding a flat 6 FOM bellhousing,so I am going to try to use a flat 6 truck bellhousing to make an adaptor.


To far into it to quit now. Already bought the FOM steering column,driveshaft,and 3:31 rear end,plus have a newly rebuilt 51 FOM sitting on my shop floor.


What is holding me up right now is I bought a 98 percent complete and original 51 Vicky with V-8 and FOM to fix to drive for a couple of months and sell. It now runs whisper quiet,shifts as slick as a new one,and rides and drives well. Ended up using a 200 buck Champion radiator instead of spending close to grand for a brass and copper one,but that,the repop gas tank,and the 6 inch steel US Wheels rims with the baby moons and radial tires are the only non-stock items on the car. I even managed to find the correct carb and dash pot.


Nice car,but it ain't a flat 6 biz coupe.