The Ford Barn

4tford · 03-28-2015, 02:51 PM

I have been contacted by a fellow wanting me to rebuild his French flathead V8-60. It is out of a 1959 Simca. He says insert main bearings. Aluminum heads and aluminum oil pan. He is sending me a bunch of pics, parts manual and more info. In the meantime what can you tell me about the engine? How will it differ from the 8ba and 59a etc. engines I am used to? What about the availibility of parts? Any info appreciated. Thanks Bill

KiWinUS · 03-28-2015, 03:15 PM

Bill , I have one of those same engines . Mine is almost complete but I have never taken it apart. I have many other v8/60 engines & parts also. You need to shrink your hands to work on the lil rascals other than that they are about like a 59ab. Parts are expensive I believe most v8/60 parts fit .
Cheers
Tony

Bob C · 03-28-2015, 03:57 PM

Is the engine a French Ford Vedette or a Simca Vedette? From what I have
found the French Ford is very similar to the US V8-60 but the Simca is quite a bit different.
Here is a picture of a French Ford I am going to put in a Ford tractor, the other picture is
a Simca.

Bob

4tford · 03-28-2015, 04:38 PM

We had a short phone call and he stated it was a Simca Vedette that has sat for 40 years. He has the motor apart.

Greg in Jax · 03-28-2015, 04:47 PM

Bill, I have a lot of information on them and have a few parts left. The Simca version of the V8-60 has flat cylinder head combustion chamber areas and the block is relieved. The pistons are flat-top instead of the domed 60 pistons. The intake runners into the block are significantly larger in diameter than the normal 60 and the cylinder head gasket sealing area is slightly taller toward the intake manifold side. The intake manifold is set up for a single two-barrel four-bolt Zenith-Stromberg that flows a little more than a Stromberg 48. The exhaust ports are considerably larger than the 60 and are located differently on the block. There is a single water pump in a very different front cover that also contains the vertically-mounted distributor. Inside, the main bearings are the same as the 1940 Ford 60 block. The rod bearings are larger diameter than the 1940 60, are inserted and there is an individual bearing for each rod, no shared bearings as on a 60. The oil pump is built into the front main like a 60 but the pickup is up front and is integral to the pump cover. There is an aluminum crankcase extension that uses the same gasket as the 1940 60 with a steel oil pan. The camshaft is located in the same bearings that the 60 uses but the lifters are mushroom type, inserted from inside the engine, so the cam and lifters are not interchangeable with the 60. Valves and springs are similar to the setup on the 8BA. Early Simca engines are like the French Ford 60 with split valve guides and mushroom-stem valves but a '59 should be like an 8BA. The flywheel looks like a 60 flywheel but the starter comes in from the opposite side of the engine so the ring gear is reversed. The flywheel retainer bolts are drilled with a different pattern than the 60. Clutch driven plate has a differrent number of splines and the clutch cover is not interchangeable with the 60. So, what is a direct interchange? The main bearings, the 60 oil pan gasket which fits the crankcase extension, and a few odds and ends. Parts are very difficult to obtain, you will be researching the French eBay site and emailing French vendors. I helped a FordBarn member in New Zealand by selling him what I had left and tracking everything down for him that he needed in Europe. It took more than a year and a half of concerted effort to find everything. The prices of parts are obscene when you do find them. You will end up manufacturing a lot of parts that you could normally buy off the shelf or find relatively easily on eBay. There is a club in France that is not very helpful for Americans looking for parts and a very active club in Holland that bought up all of the parts that they could fine left over in dealerships in Holland and France. I can track down my list of suppliers if it will help.

With all of that, if your customer is willing to wait and to pay what it takes to build the engine, your experience with various Ford flatheads will make it easy to actually complete the build. The Simca has an amazing amount of power for those accustomed to the normal US 60 and it is a really nice engine when it is running. Stock Simca flatheads were rated at 75 DIN (European) HP, which is more like 85 SAE BHP. If you are interested I can put you in touch with the fellow in NZ who just completed his, and I have a video of it running.

I have a couple of intake manifolds, a crankcase extension and oil pan, a couple of heads - one damaged - some valves, exhaust manifolds and a lot of printed information if it will help.

Best wishes, Greg in Jax

Greg in Jax · 03-28-2015, 04:56 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I also kept the pages from the Vedette shop manual that have to do with the engine. Will be glad to send you a copy if you end up working on the engine. All the specs are there.

KiWinUS · 03-28-2015, 05:11 PM

WOW Greg , very interesting!
Thank you ! The engine I have has the Zenith , I am missing the rotor & the cap may be broken , has exhaust manifolds & clutch , pretty complete .
Cheers
Tony

Greg in Jax · 03-28-2015, 05:17 PM

Tony, ignition parts turn up regularly on the French eBay site. Much cheaper that way than buying them from a French vendor. I thought that I had kicked the Vedette habit, but I could be wrong.

Greg in Jax · 03-28-2015, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

WOW Greg , very interesting!
Thank you ! The engine I have has the Zenith , I am missing the rotor & the cap may be broken , has exhaust manifolds & clutch , pretty complete .
Cheers
Tony

The offer for copies of the info that I have holds for you if you need/want it. Greg

Barlea · 03-28-2015, 07:05 PM

Here's the Brazilian version from the 60s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AmRgGuXAzk

4tford · 03-28-2015, 08:27 PM

Wow Greg, A real learning curve for me as I have never had a 60 of any kind. The fellow is going to mail me a pile of stuff including a manual. I will go over things and then get together with him to see what will be happening. As the engine is supposed to be complete and coming from the car as it was parked. Should help having all the original parts there. I will update when I know more. Thanks Bill

4tford · 07-18-2015, 10:32 AM

Well early this week the Vedette V8-60 arrived at my place for a rebuild. Unfortunately for me it came completely disassembled except for the valve guides. Now is the time for me to ask more questions. I assume the guides need to come out for the hot tank and magnaflux. How do I take them out? What normally holds them in place? I do not know the original sizes of the crank, cam and bore so will need to know them to determine the sizes of bearings and pistons etc. Present measurements are bore 2.616" . Crank Main 2.198 and rods 1.745. Cam measures 1.770. Where do I now go to get bearings, pistons and rings?

Charlie Stephens · 07-18-2015, 03:02 PM

I can remember years ago that they said "you can't beat cubic inches". Be sure to check out the cubic inches in the V8 60, I think you will decide to pass on it.

Charlie Stephens

4tford · 07-18-2015, 03:16 PM

The engine belongs to a customer who will be installing it in a motorcycle. He wants small and different and is very much aware of what he has.

03-28-2015, 02:51 PM	#1
4tford Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Regina Canada Posts: 1,335	French V8-60 I have been contacted by a fellow wanting me to rebuild his French flathead V8-60. It is out of a 1959 Simca. He says insert main bearings. Aluminum heads and aluminum oil pan. He is sending me a bunch of pics, parts manual and more info. In the meantime what can you tell me about the engine? How will it differ from the 8ba and 59a etc. engines I am used to? What about the availibility of parts? Any info appreciated. Thanks Bill

03-28-2015, 03:15 PM	#2
KiWinUS Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Charlotte NC KiWi-L100 available here Posts: 2,964	Re: French V8-60 Bill , I have one of those same engines . Mine is almost complete but I have never taken it apart. I have many other v8/60 engines & parts also. You need to shrink your hands to work on the lil rascals other than that they are about like a 59ab. Parts are expensive I believe most v8/60 parts fit . Cheers Tony

03-28-2015, 04:38 PM	#4
4tford Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Regina Canada Posts: 1,335	Re: French V8-60 We had a short phone call and he stated it was a Simca Vedette that has sat for 40 years. He has the motor apart.

03-28-2015, 04:47 PM	#5
Greg in Jax Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Re: French V8-60 Bill, I have a lot of information on them and have a few parts left. The Simca version of the V8-60 has flat cylinder head combustion chamber areas and the block is relieved. The pistons are flat-top instead of the domed 60 pistons. The intake runners into the block are significantly larger in diameter than the normal 60 and the cylinder head gasket sealing area is slightly taller toward the intake manifold side. The intake manifold is set up for a single two-barrel four-bolt Zenith-Stromberg that flows a little more than a Stromberg 48. The exhaust ports are considerably larger than the 60 and are located differently on the block. There is a single water pump in a very different front cover that also contains the vertically-mounted distributor. Inside, the main bearings are the same as the 1940 Ford 60 block. The rod bearings are larger diameter than the 1940 60, are inserted and there is an individual bearing for each rod, no shared bearings as on a 60. The oil pump is built into the front main like a 60 but the pickup is up front and is integral to the pump cover. There is an aluminum crankcase extension that uses the same gasket as the 1940 60 with a steel oil pan. The camshaft is located in the same bearings that the 60 uses but the lifters are mushroom type, inserted from inside the engine, so the cam and lifters are not interchangeable with the 60. Valves and springs are similar to the setup on the 8BA. Early Simca engines are like the French Ford 60 with split valve guides and mushroom-stem valves but a '59 should be like an 8BA. The flywheel looks like a 60 flywheel but the starter comes in from the opposite side of the engine so the ring gear is reversed. The flywheel retainer bolts are drilled with a different pattern than the 60. Clutch driven plate has a differrent number of splines and the clutch cover is not interchangeable with the 60. So, what is a direct interchange? The main bearings, the 60 oil pan gasket which fits the crankcase extension, and a few odds and ends. Parts are very difficult to obtain, you will be researching the French eBay site and emailing French vendors. I helped a FordBarn member in New Zealand by selling him what I had left and tracking everything down for him that he needed in Europe. It took more than a year and a half of concerted effort to find everything. The prices of parts are obscene when you do find them. You will end up manufacturing a lot of parts that you could normally buy off the shelf or find relatively easily on eBay. There is a club in France that is not very helpful for Americans looking for parts and a very active club in Holland that bought up all of the parts that they could fine left over in dealerships in Holland and France. I can track down my list of suppliers if it will help. With all of that, if your customer is willing to wait and to pay what it takes to build the engine, your experience with various Ford flatheads will make it easy to actually complete the build. The Simca has an amazing amount of power for those accustomed to the normal US 60 and it is a really nice engine when it is running. Stock Simca flatheads were rated at 75 DIN (European) HP, which is more like 85 SAE BHP. If you are interested I can put you in touch with the fellow in NZ who just completed his, and I have a video of it running. I have a couple of intake manifolds, a crankcase extension and oil pan, a couple of heads - one damaged - some valves, exhaust manifolds and a lot of printed information if it will help. Best wishes, Greg in Jax

03-28-2015, 04:56 PM	#6
Greg in Jax Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Re: French V8-60 Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I also kept the pages from the Vedette shop manual that have to do with the engine. Will be glad to send you a copy if you end up working on the engine. All the specs are there.

03-28-2015, 05:11 PM	#7
KiWinUS Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Charlotte NC KiWi-L100 available here Posts: 2,964	Re: French V8-60 WOW Greg , very interesting! Thank you ! The engine I have has the Zenith , I am missing the rotor & the cap may be broken , has exhaust manifolds & clutch , pretty complete . Cheers Tony

03-28-2015, 05:17 PM	#8
Greg in Jax Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 75	Re: French V8-60 Tony, ignition parts turn up regularly on the French eBay site. Much cheaper that way than buying them from a French vendor. I thought that I had kicked the Vedette habit, but I could be wrong.

03-28-2015, 07:05 PM	#10
Barlea Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: West Central Alberta Posts: 441	Re: French V8-60 Here's the Brazilian version from the 60s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AmRgGuXAzk

03-28-2015, 08:27 PM	#11
4tford Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Regina Canada Posts: 1,335	Re: French V8-60 Wow Greg, A real learning curve for me as I have never had a 60 of any kind. The fellow is going to mail me a pile of stuff including a manual. I will go over things and then get together with him to see what will be happening. As the engine is supposed to be complete and coming from the car as it was parked. Should help having all the original parts there. I will update when I know more. Thanks Bill

07-18-2015, 10:32 AM	#12
4tford Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Regina Canada Posts: 1,335	Re: French V8-60 Well early this week the Vedette V8-60 arrived at my place for a rebuild. Unfortunately for me it came completely disassembled except for the valve guides. Now is the time for me to ask more questions. I assume the guides need to come out for the hot tank and magnaflux. How do I take them out? What normally holds them in place? I do not know the original sizes of the crank, cam and bore so will need to know them to determine the sizes of bearings and pistons etc. Present measurements are bore 2.616" . Crank Main 2.198 and rods 1.745. Cam measures 1.770. Where do I now go to get bearings, pistons and rings? Last edited by 4tford; 08-05-2020 at 08:01 AM.

07-18-2015, 03:02 PM	#13
Charlie Stephens Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 7,037	Re: French V8-60 I can remember years ago that they said "you can't beat cubic inches". Be sure to check out the cubic inches in the V8 60, I think you will decide to pass on it. Charlie Stephens

07-18-2015, 03:16 PM	#14
4tford Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Regina Canada Posts: 1,335	Re: French V8-60 The engine belongs to a customer who will be installing it in a motorcycle. He wants small and different and is very much aware of what he has. Last edited by 4tford; 07-18-2015 at 06:46 PM.