Buying an old flathead motor

[russcc]

I am looking to buy a flathead motor and saw 4 today that have been stored in an outbuilding for probably 40 years. 1 is a '35-36 with pumps in the head, which I am not interested in. 1 is a 59 AB, and the other 2 are 24 studders with a large A on the heads. Is there an 81A on the heads or somewhere else that I am missing, as I am guessing they are '38 to '42. None of them have plugs in them, or carbs on the manifolds so I doubt they would turn over. What is a 59A or 81A core worth, providing there are no show stoppers like majors cracks ? I can post photos if that would help.

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by russcc

I am looking to buy a flathead motor and saw 4 today that have been stored in an outbuilding for probably 40 years. 1 is a '35-36 with pumps in the head, which I am not interested in. 1 is a 59 AB, and the other 2 are 24 studders with a large A on the heads. Is there an 81A on the heads or somewhere else that I am missing, as I am guessing they are '38 to '42. None of them have plugs in them, or carbs on the manifolds so I doubt they would turn over. What is a 59A or 81A core worth, providing there are no show stoppers like majors cracks ? I can post photos if that would help.

The truth is that once you start buying engines like this - it is always a crap shoot! I would naturally go for the 59AB, but with that said - it has just as much of a chance of being cracked as the others. It comes down to price and amount of work you want to put into them. If they were cheap, then I'd buy all three of the 24 stud engines - take them all apart and take the best of the lot (but that is a lot of work!). If you are allowed to pull the heads and check the bores as well as the areas between the valves and the bores, then you'll stand a better chance of identifying any major cracks.

Can you pull the heads before buying them? If so, this is the best approach.

What are they asking for them?

Question: What is your ultimate goal in the engine? It is one thing to just build a really nice stock engine . . . another to build a big cube stroker motor - sometimes what you start with comes into the picture.

Best of luck - and I wish you the best . . . once you have a nice flathead engine, you'll love it!

B&S

[flatjack9]

No more than $100 and less if you buy more than one. Agree the 59A would be the first choice.

[blucar]

From my experience, buying used engines, regardless of the make or model is a crap shoot at it's best. Many people have an inflated idea of what a Ford flat-head is worth. People throw numbers around of several hundred dollars, even as high as $1,000. for what they claim to be a rebuildable engine.
I recently purchased a complete 59 A engine for $200, removing the heads after I got it home I found that the pistons and rods had been removed and the engine resealed up, like nothing had ever happened.. Maybe I got a good crank, block, water pump cores, flywheel, etc., for $200. maybe not, only time will tell.
If you can't open the engines up, to inspect the internals, view the engines as being basically junk!!!

[Brian]

That one you're not interested in, the 21 stud with pumps in heads, could be an LB block, which is quite keenly sought after by the early Ford restorers, and as such, is well worth checking out, rather than discounting it. If indeed it is a salvageable LB, and you can score it for the right price, it could conceiveably be sold off at a profit to offset the purchase price[s] of the other three. Or...remote chance it could be a 32, again valuable to the right person.

[Ralph Moore]

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Originally Posted by blucar

From my experience, buying used engines, regardless of the make or model is a crap shoot at it's best. Many people have an inflated idea of what a Ford flat-head is worth. People throw numbers around of several hundred dollars, even as high as $1,000. for what they claim to be a rebuildable engine.
I recently purchased a complete 59 A engine for $200, removing the heads after I got it home I found that the pistons and rods had been removed and the engine resealed up, like nothing had ever happened.. Maybe I got a good crank, block, water pump cores, flywheel, etc., for $200. maybe not, only time will tell.
If you can't open the engines up, to inspect the internals, view the engines as being basically junk!!!

I definitely agree, I looked at a flat motor in a junkyard, 29A heads, possibly a 42 Merc, turned over ok, and was still in a cabover truck protected from the elements. I offered the guy $300 for it, then one of his buddies said he gets $1000 for them. I should of told him I had five at home I'd sell him for that price.

[Marv]

Junk has went down. I would not give more than $50 for a engine that not has been cleaned and magnafluxed to be sure of no cracks. The possibility of a flathead engine being cracked is about at least 90% in my opinion.

[blucar]

A few years ago I accompanied my son in-law that lives in Montana over to a neighbors farm to see if the guy might have a part for my son in-laws combine. Actually it was an excuse to get a pre-auction look at what the guy had.
The farm had recently been taken over by the son of the original owner, the later of which had recently passed away. The original owner of the farm had worked the place for over sixty years, in later years he had developed a big interest in '32-53 Ford trucks.
The vehicles were all being arranged in neat rows by their year, the oldest being a 1.5 ton '32 flat bed, the newest EV8 was a '53 F-5 grain truck. There were several pickups and trucks as new as '74..
Parts were being hauled out of the old shop buildings/barns, I noted several flat bed V8's, pre 42, and a couple of 21 stud engines. There were two very clean complete long block 59 AB engines, I asked about them. I was told that it was "their belief" that the deceased father was "rebuilding" the engines to put in a '34 flat bed.
On the day of the auction my son in-law and I showed up early, a large crowd was already surveying everything. It was announced that the farm machinery would be auctioned first, then the vehicles, starting with the newest.
I noted that a large group was gathering around the EV8 vehicles and parts, the parts were all assembled on pallets, with the 21 stud engines (2) on one pallet. the 59 AB engines were on individual pallets.. The two "reputedly rebuilt" 59's had been painted Ford blue, carbs/distrib. and exhaust manifolds had been added since I had seen them about a week earlier. Hmmmmm ?
When the auction finally got around to the EV8 parts, etc., it was announced that the engines would go first, then the parts. I sat back to watch the fun. I considered bidding on the two 59 AB engines, thinking I might go as high as $400. each.
The bidding for the engines started off very fast, the 21 stud engines went for over $300. each, the bidding on the 59's went nutz, one went for $850. the other $800. I did not bid on any of the engines.
When the parts pallets came up, the auction was going to be per piece, a huge objection arose, the auction proceeded, a carb at $5.00, no bidders, a water pump at $10. not bidders, people started to walk away, it was getting late and it was getting cold..
It was announced that the auction for the parts would be by the pallet.. I held fast, waiting to see what was going to happen. First pallet containing old exhaust manifolds finally got bid up to $8.00, and stopped, I finally bid $10. I won the bid.. Long story short, I got all three pallets of parts for $30. Most of the stuff was junk, however, I got two sets of the '36 style of log exhaust manifolds, several 21 stud and 37-48 water-pumps, plus a couple of '39 generators, some earlier generators and several starters.
I would have liked to see the look on the guys face that bought the "newly rebuilt" 59 AB's when he found that the rebuild was in all probability nothing more that "Mechanic in A Can".... i.e. spray paint.

[bobH]

My quest for an engine story - about 4 years ago....
The goal was to find & build an engine for our 47, stocker, 59-type.
First try... an engine that I bought about 30 years ago, 50 bucks, stored inside my garage all these years. When I got the heads off, I found that it had been stored with water in it, probably outside, before I got it. It was, and is, stuck, and to this day, I haven't got the pistons out. It looks hopeless, and I put it aside. I wonder why I stored it so carefully, inside, all these years.
Second try... A completely assembled engine, came to me in a $300 package-deal with a couple others. It looked good on the outside, still had decent paint on it. Got it apart, and found NO cracks on the deck, and just a little rust on the deck for #8. This block checked out, passed magnaflux, and this was the one I spent considerable bucks on, having an experienced flathead-builder do the honors. It got a Merc crank (from Walt), 60-over bore, mild cam, balanced, new Edlebrock heads, massaged for fit and clearances as described by Ol'Ron. It got as far as being finished, and on the test stand, and run. It sounded great. A home-run... or NOT. It had water in the oil, instantly. Bottom line, the block had/has fatal problems. A hole above the cam gear (potentially could be fixed), and water leaking from a source that can't be seen, into the #1 exhaust port. It's 'fatal', because this one can't be fixed. And, even it it was 'fixable', I could never trust the block because it's probably weak in this area.
Third... A bare block, came bare, free, no main caps, amateur relief job, too many deck cracks, already 'big-bore', pretty rusty. Put it aside, gave it to the engine builder/machine shop owner.
Fourth... Another 59, part of the same 'package-deal', a little rusty but not too bad. Spent a day getting it apart, all pistons out, all valve assy's out, all studs pulled. Had it cleaned & magnafluxed. Too many cracks, and machinist didn't want to use this one. I brought it home, and put it in the 'maybe-someday' pile.
Fifth... And, this is where I am, on hold, today. The engine that came with the car. It's out, on the floor, and been waiting 2 years for me to act. At least I know it's been running fine, never overheated, uses no oil, no knocks, and I don't have to add coolant year-in and year-out. (reason for rebuild is .018-.020 cylinder wear.)
Meanwhile, the car has a 'temporary', borrowed engine, and it's running fine.
Bottom line... I'm really leary of spending very much for a crap-shoot. I'd like to find the guy that will sell me an engine (or block) 'on-contingency'... I'd spend whatever to take it apart, clean it, magnaflux, and generally see if it's usable. If it passes, I'd owe the seller some (substantial) price. If it fails, he gets to keep it. I'm probably asking for more than possible.
One guy that I did find in my search... An older guy, about my age (meaning at least 75-85), has about 75 bare blocks in his shop. They are all cleaned, and he has them numbered and measured, as for bore, etc. He wants $500 each, with no promise about cracks. I passed. How much time does this guy have left, and what is he going to do with 75 blocks? My bet is that his wife or family will let them go for scrap.
Bottom line... I'm leary
As for your 'dilema'... I'd probably be interested in the whole package, if the price was ok. As said above, I'd be looking closely at that 21-studder. And, any of the others might satisfy my need for a 221 or 239 usable engine.

[Tim Ayers]

Take the advice given here. No more than $50-$75 per engine. Tearing down a rusty old flathead is a lot of work. If you scored a crack free and usable block, you earned your keep. If they come back no good, you have a small amount invested minus your time.

[JSeery]

[QUOTE=bobH;965686]My quest for an engine story - about 4 years ago....
"This block checked out, passed magnaflux, and this was the one I spent considerable bucks on, having an experienced flathead-builder do the honors. It got a Merc crank (from Walt), 60-over bore, mild cam, balanced, new Edlebrock heads, massaged for fit and clearances as described by Ol'Ron. It got as far as being finished, and on the test stand, and run. It sounded great. A home-run... or NOT. It had water in the oil, instantly. Bottom line, the block had/has fatal problems. A hole above the cam gear (potentially could be fixed), and water leaking from a source that can't be seen, into the #1 exhaust port. It's 'fatal', because this one can't be fixed. And, even it it was 'fixable', I could never trust the block because it's probably weak in this area."

Blocks need to also be pressure tested.

[supereal]

The major problem usually arises because the engine was tossed into the scrap pile when it failed or wore out beyond repair. We have one of those currently in our shop. The customer brought in only the bare block, which we boiled for almost a week to get all the crud off and out. When that was complete, we checked it for cracks and, sure enough, there are three visible in the usual place, between the valve pocket and the cylinder bore. We may pin them if he wants to take a chance that there are not more internal flaws.

[Hoop]

OK ... we've heard what bad or unknown engines are worth.

What are good engines worth? How about a seller that absolutely guarantees an 8BA removed from a beautifully restored, running car and replaced by a SBC?

Written guarantee, money back if not completely satisfied.

No "maybe this" or "maybe that." What would the engine be worth?

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Hoop

OK ... we've heard what bad or unknown engines are worth.

What are good engines worth? How about a seller that absolutely guarantees an 8BA removed from a beautifully restored, running car and replaced by a SBC?

Written guarantee, money back if not completely satisfied.

No "maybe this" or "maybe that." What would the engine be worth?

As a point of reference, I sold a stock bore, mag'd and pressure tested bare 8BA block with correct caps for $600 two years ago.

[Kahuna]

Like Tim, I bought a Guaranteed 59 block from Vern Tardel for $500.00. I then had it Magged, Pressure tested and Sonic tested, which was $120.00. Good deal in my estimation.
Two years ago when I didn't need an engine, I was at a large swap meet and a seller had a very clean 59 type block with a Mag certification and a turned Merc crank for $800.00.
Nobody bought it. Strange how some people think

[bobH]

Blocks need to also be pressure tested.[/QUOTE]


That's the same conclusion that we arrived at. An expensive lesson.

[TonyM]

I hope this one is good. I got it for free. 1952-53. Sat in a garage since the 1960s.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by TonyM

I hope this one is good. I got it for free. 1952-53. Sat in a garage since the 1960s.

Well, price was certainly right. Good luck with it.

[russcc]

Thank you for all the insight. Right on target as this is not the first flathead I have bought. I know the source, and they were put in the shed in the late 1950's by a guy who ran a junk yard behinds his house, because they ran ok when they came out of the cars he either junked or buried in the back acres. I bought a Model A engine out the same shed 10 years ago and it' till running fine in the roadster. I also bought a 38-42 24 studder that had been rebuilt by the Somerville Ford plant many years before. I took it apart, and it was good shape, so I sold it.

I know what the 59A is, but I am not sure what the other 24 studders are with a large A stamped on the heads. Where do you look on the heads to find the pre-fix before the 6049 or 6050. Thank you all for your response

[rotorwrench]

The early 81A heads were marked as such but many later ones just had the big "A". The 95 HP engines started out with 81A heads but changed over to 99T somewhere in late 39 or 40. There was a mix of iron and aluminum 81A heads too.