Inserts vs. Babbitt?

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

What material is used to make an bearing insert?

Which year are you interested in
it seams to change every 10 years and every manufacturer is a little differnt
20 years ago most were steel back then copper and finished with white metal
today steel back with aluminium or straight aluminium

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Which year are you interested in
it seams to change every 10 years and every manufacturer is a little differnt
20 years ago most were steel back then copper and finished with white metal
today steel back with aluminium or straight aluminium

The ones used in the Model A.

[colin1928]

Good question no info on AER web site

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Good question no info on AER web site

You mentioned white metal which is babbit on those 20 years ago. Has the technology changed for the ones sold now by the vendors for the
model A?

[Purdy Swoft]

I prefer babbit, thats original or older babbitt that is made from the proper mix of metals.. These bearings are adjustable and can last a lifetime. One of my engines has been very dependable for the past 54 years and it had already run 31 years before I got it. All of my engines have babbitt bearings . Depending on the road, we usually drive 50 mph or more. Some of my engines are modified with higher compression heads, 3/4 race cams, oversized pistons, dual updraft carbs, port work lighter flywheels and other mods. I have never had a babbitt failure with any of my engines. I don't run the engines on the race track but run them as fun drivers. I'm not a believer in heavy counterbalanced crankshafts and have never had a problem using original model A crankshafts . I set bearing clearance at .002 . I've never seen a too tight engine run for very long or fast.

[George Miller]

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I had a original 1930 Townsedan that had 85000 original miles. The engine had never been rebuilt. I ground the valves and adjusted the bearings. The bearings were not that loose. It ran like a top and was one of the smoothies Model A engine that I ever drove. So original Babbitt was good, but where do you get it done like that now. Maybe Herm he seems to know Babbitt.
But for me it is easier to use inserts.

[J and M Machine]

George Miller: Babbitt work like this.?
Naturally we're a proponent of babbitted bearings because we know how to do the work properly.
Babbitt bearings are more forgiving than the inserted bearings due to the fact that Model A engines aren't pressurized.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Which year are you interested in
it seams to change every 10 years and every manufacturer is a little differnt
20 years ago most were steel back then copper and finished with white metal
today steel back with aluminium or straight aluminium

Yeah, I believe that inserts have been made of different running surfaces. I just checked a flathead which looks to be copper inserts ('40 V12) .

[peters180a/170b]

today i spoke to a old time racer of Model "A"s in Danbury Conn. track in the good old days. I am trying to buy 1 of the very many trophies he won which are very cool.Dan is also into restoring old airplanes from the 30's and 40's. He just finishes a 1940 Cub Coupe training plane which uses some Model "A" parts .I ask him today as a Model "A" Ford racer and plane rebuilder which would you use: ? BEEN THERE DONE THAT [ INSERTS] that was his answer. He just won BEST of class at a plane meet 3 weeks ago in P.A. [that's 1 engine you don't want to make a mistake rebuilding ! ]there are no curbs to pull over...l.o.l.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

if you read about old HENRY he was a cheap ass ! that's why he was pouring babbit and not inserts. I went with inserts [ twice] 2 motors/2 cars and never looked back

Now where did THAT come from? He was far cry away from being "cheap". Go spend some time actually studying what all he accomplished, and what all he owned and you will see he was NOT a cheap person!

Henry on the other hand was a shrewd -yet self-centered businessman that was power hungry. When you study what all he owned during that time outside of just a car assembly company you quickly realize he did not get that way by being lazy or by not spending money. If he had of been cheap, there are many components on the Model-A that could have been manufactured much cheaper to save a $$.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Yeah, I believe that inserts have been made of different running surfaces. I just checked a flathead which looks to be copper inserts ('40 V12) .

Some of the mid forties Ford flathead V8s used full floating bronze rod bearing inserts

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Now where did THAT come from? He was far cry away from being "cheap". Go spend some time actually studying what all he accomplished, and what all he owned and you will see he was NOT a cheap person!

Henry on the other hand was a shrewd -yet self-centered businessman that was power hungry. When you study what all he owned during that time outside of just a car assembly company you quickly realize he did not get that way by being lazy or by not spending money. If he had of been cheap, there are many components on the Model-A that could have been manufactured much cheaper to save a $$.

How much did the "cheap skate" spend on Fordlandia?Doing things the simplest way with no waste is not being cheap. Frugal yes cheap no.

[James Rogers]

Just how many engines were built from 1908 till 1935 that had inserts? Name 2.

[Kurt in NJ]

from a 1935 chilton
Audburn lists bronze backed main bearings---renewable from below
Cadillac --bronze backed --renewable from below---by 1930 steel backed for some
Chyrsler 75, 28-29, bronze backed, pull engine, but no hand fitting or reaming
Durant 1929 --pull engine but no fitting or reaming
Grahm paige --renewable from below

Oldsmobile f33 1933 --mains, steel backed, renewable from below, rods removable babbitt lined steel shells

Nash 1220,(1934) mains, steel backed, renewable from below, rods, removeable steel backed babbitt lined shells

Hupmobile, 6 cylinder 1934, mains bronze backed, removable from below, rods, removable steel backed babbitt

I remember taking apart a Franklin engine and it had a form of inserts, it was before 1928, to me they seemed like solid babbitt ---but they had the look like they required fitting , the cars that list "renewable from below" to me indicate modern style precision fitted bearing inserts, but although I didn't look up all the cars it seems that modern type steel backed precision inserts appeared in 1933- 1934 in several cars for rods, mains before them

[Tom Wesenberg]

Studebaker was very early in the use of insert bearings.

[peters180a/170b]

My 1935 Chevy Standard coupe has babbit only on the piston rods. The Filling Station ,Chevrolet & GMC Reproduction parts house :Replace your worn out babbit rod with NEW "MODERN" style insert bearing. The key word here is "MODERN" Style. Babbit cost is $145.00 per rod..... 1916 to 1936 engines... $65.00 for inserts.... If babbit was as good as some say we would still have it today on our "MODERN" cars..

[colin1928]

Surprizing enough Babbitt is still used to today but only in high performance engines such as race cars and engines making 500-600 hp +they use a Trimetal bearings that have a steel back then copper and finally a very thin coat of Babbitt the reason for Babbitt is under high load the with deflections some surface contact can happen that's is when soft Babbitt can survive for short time (say a race meeting) limiting damage to the crank
Why not Babbitt as in our A models it must be thin due to cyclic loading fatigue
the thicker the Babbitt it will suffer more fatigue
Most race engine builders prefer the trimetal bearings over the bimetal steel and SI-AL found in modern production cars

[Ron W]

Racers that I am aware of using "Babbitt" lined shells change them after every meet. They are forgiving but do not last long. Ron W

[hardtimes]

Hey Kevin,
Wow, nice research info...thanks for sharing !

Those companies that you list, for the most part, seem to be higher end ($) product.
That is ,IMO, powerful evidence for 'babbitted or otherwise insert use.
So, guess that settles IT,eh ...no , whatever ..lol

[ABento]

All arguements aside in this thread,the cost of either is about the same for installation,then you have the problem of pressure oiling if you go full insert,just for sake of conversation when the Miller over head came out in 1931,or I believe it was the Miller, all they had at the time was babbit,when hopped up they'll put out 140 to 180 horses with some work and the babbit held,that being alot more of a beating than we'll put on these stockers.