The Ford Barn

lucky · 07-29-2010, 10:29 AM

I was thinking Ron said use regular 3 3/4 stroke pistons with a 4" crank for the pop-up setup, that still leaves the cost of special heads?
Guess I won't be building one unless could find some heads within reason.
Had a friend in about 1960 with a '32 cpe had a 3 3/8 X 4 1/2 popup engine,.
Red Cornett Summerset Ky built that engine and welded Merc crank and he proly made the pistons, can't remember what brand aftermarket heads he used.
Sure ran though, faster than my chev powered '34 pickup.
This is great stuff, keep it going.
Seems like he wanted a block stamped with Z?
marvin

Tim Ayers · 07-29-2010, 10:37 AM

I believe, the "Z" blocks were one of the military versions with high levels of nickel in the mix.

Pete · 07-29-2010, 12:38 PM

"could be beneficial in not exposing the edge of the lifter to the camshaft lobe lifting ramp in the most radical racing cam designs. "

That doesn't happen in any cam I have ever seen...It may appear to but actually does not touch the edge...If it did the cam and lifter would be toast in a short time.
The reason for using a larger diameter cam blank in a flathhead is because at anything over .420 lift on a stock core you can't get the cam in the block..To get "more cam" you need to increase the lift along with the RATE OF LIFT...On the Isky 505A and several other manufacturer's cams with more lift they either run the cam in the block or bore the cam line and put inserts in.
It is possible to design a cam with a rate of lift so high that on a graph the accelleration curve would be a vertical line..This would require spring pressures so high in order to work that the system would fail mechanically.
Isky found that .011 per degree squared was the practical limit for the 505A...In order to get more it would require an inverted flank acceleration ramp..That is not practical with a radius lifter....Many modern roller lifter racing cams have inverted flanks but they require spring pressures that are hard to imagine....In some cases 800 lb on the seat..1200 open...The springs are 2 inches in diameter, have 3 coils and are made from 5/16 diameter wire.

Henry Floored · 07-29-2010, 07:47 PM

[QUOTE=Pete;52570]"could be beneficial in not exposing the edge of the lifter to the camshaft lobe lifting ramp in the most radical racing cam designs. "

That doesn't happen in any cam I have ever seen...It may appear to but actually does not touch the edge...If it did the cam and lifter would be toast in a short time.
The reason for using a larger diameter cam blank in a flathhead is because at anything over .420 lift on a stock core you can't get the cam in the block..To get "more cam" you need to increase the lift along with the RATE OF LIFT...On the Isky 505A and several other manufacturer's cams with more lift they either run the cam in the block or bore the cam line and put inserts in.
QUOTE]

Pete this paragraph illustrates exactly what I meant. In my original statement I was merely pointing out something I would change (cam diameter) if one could do a "clean sheet" redesign of a Flathead Ford. With nothing to help multiply valve lift the cam bears the whole burden. In a perfect world I think a larger dia cam would be nice. As far as the lifters I guess I retract my statement to a point. While the stock Flathead Ford lifters are certainly adequate they too could be enlarged so as to focus the cam lobe footprint more within the diameter of the lifter. If a tomato can could represent the lifter and your finger the cam lobe's point of contact we can easily visualize this. When the finger tip is in the very center it is easy to balance the can, just like when the lifter is riding on the heel of the lobe touching it in the center. Slide the finger tip past center and the can wants to tip more and more just like the lifter wants to as it rises against the camshaft lift lobe. The process is repeated in reverse down the back of the lobe. You start building taller camshaft lobes and that moves the range of contact much farther out near the lifter margin. That's taxing on the lifter. That's all that I'm talking about.

Ol' Ron · 07-29-2010, 02:23 PM

One modification you can make to a cylinder head is to increase the angle of the transfer area into the cylinder. I cut this back with a ball end mill. However it lowers compression and I don't think it helps a street engine.

Tony Martino · 07-29-2010, 04:39 PM

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Just reading this post..... sort of like being in church! As an old time car guy (60) I love the enthusiasm and the interest. I have been driving my 31 with a stock, lowly old 49-53 Merc V8 as an almost daily driver for about 7 years and never even added a 2 carb set-up, but hearing you guys has sparked my interest! Thanks for the inspiration! GREAT THREAD

Vergil · 07-29-2010, 06:50 PM

Great post and information to think about. Below is a picture of an 8ba I cut to see what it looked like through the port.

Vergil

Ol' Ron · 07-29-2010, 10:13 PM

Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.

Tim Ayers · 07-29-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.

Didn't some of the Kong heads come without the spark plug hole drilled/tapped for this very reason?

Man, does anyone know what happened to Kong's patterns? I also thought he had Winfield's cam masters as well.

I also think M. Davidson's heads were patterned after Kong's with some improvement Mike thought were needed.

Somewhere there is a treasure trove of flathead goodness stash out there somewhere.

HotRodmicky · 07-30-2010, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Didn't some of the Kong heads come without the spark plug hole drilled/tapped for this very reason?

Man, does anyone know what happened to Kong's patterns? I also thought he had Winfield's cam masters as well.

I also think M. Davidson's heads were patterned after Kong's with some improvement Mike thought were needed.

Somewhere there is a treasure trove of flathead goodness stash out there somewhere.

Winfield cams??? They are only good for four bangers....

I follow Petes school of Flathead cams ...... Winfield are lame cams

Read Pete statements on the HAMB about cams.

BTW I love this thread!!!!!!!!!

Tim Ayers · 08-10-2010, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotRodmicky

Winfield cams??? They are only good for four bangers....

I follow Petes school of Flathead cams ...... Winfield are lame cams

Read Pete statements on the HAMB about cams.

BTW I love this thread!!!!!!!!!

Can't say I agree with you. Some of the fastest drag engines ran/run Winfield's SU-1A.

Just because a cam is "wild" doesn't mean it's good. Take some time to really think about the theory and timing of some of the cams that are out there.

Winfield was a genius and knew what he was doing.

Always remember this: Opinions about flathead cams can be like dirty socks. We all have them and some stink worse than others.

HotRodmicky · 07-30-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.

Yeah Ron i agree on the spark plug location.

I wish Flatattak heads were a little cheaper and not down under...

HotRodmicky · 07-30-2010, 12:32 AM

Has anbody used Motor City Flathead heads and cams?

lucky · 08-01-2010, 12:21 PM

Ron

If I wanted to build a late engine using 4" Merc crank, would you recomend the pop-up piston?

If so [for street use] what pistons and rods would you recomend?

Also what heads would be required for this?

Thanks, marvin

Ol' Ron · 08-01-2010, 01:08 PM

No I don't think that running a pop-up piston would be of any advantage at the engine operating RPM. Also the higher CR may cause fuel and ignition problems. Build a tight combustion chamber, play with the transfer area. You might consider angle milling the heads. But all these mods have little affect at the normal cruising speeds of the engine.

Kahuna · 08-02-2010, 12:17 PM

"What do you think is the highest streetable and naturally aspirated horsepower per cubic inch that is possible from a Flathead Ford? What about the same question for race engines?"

This will generate some arguements, I'm sure, but for "streetable (very subjective), my educated guess, having seen 3 well built flatheads on a dyno, is that about 0.65 HP/CI average. Then there is the race flathead that Ken Kloth built, raced and set records with. It is about, not quite, 1.1 Hp/CI. Not really streetable, but was once or twice driven to the local cruise nites. Helpful?
Jim

John R · 08-02-2010, 02:47 PM

As I recall, Ken Kloth's engine had a number of interesting features. Has any of these been documented in any detail in magazine articles or elsewhere? Be nice to learn more.

Henry Floored · 08-02-2010, 03:07 PM

I'd love to hear from Kenny Kloth. That guy is amazing. He is to Flatheads what Karol Miller was to Y-blocks.

uncle max · 08-02-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John R

As I recall, Ken Kloth's engine had a number of interesting features. Has any of these been documented in any detail in magazine articles or elsewhere? Be nice to learn more.

Kenny's a local boy... I once got a peek at the silicone patterns he made for his combustion chambers. He bought blank heads from Offenhauser and carved the chambers himself, when he was finished, they bore an uncanny resemblance to the old Model A Police heads and came in at an unbelievable 6 to 1 compression ratio. That Merc would fly.

Henry/Kokomo · 08-02-2010, 06:11 PM

Really a 6:1 ratio ? I'm surprised the ratio isn't higher.

07-29-2010, 10:29 AM	#1
lucky Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 43	Re: Boring a flathead I was thinking Ron said use regular 3 3/4 stroke pistons with a 4" crank for the pop-up setup, that still leaves the cost of special heads? Guess I won't be building one unless could find some heads within reason. Had a friend in about 1960 with a '32 cpe had a 3 3/8 X 4 1/2 popup engine,. Red Cornett Summerset Ky built that engine and welded Merc crank and he proly made the pistons, can't remember what brand aftermarket heads he used. Sure ran though, faster than my chev powered '34 pickup. This is great stuff, keep it going. Seems like he wanted a block stamped with Z? marvin

07-29-2010, 10:37 AM	#2
Tim Ayers Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 6,249	Re: Boring a flathead I believe, the "Z" blocks were one of the military versions with high levels of nickel in the mix.

07-29-2010, 12:38 PM	#3
Pete BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,423	Re: Boring a flathead "could be beneficial in not exposing the edge of the lifter to the camshaft lobe lifting ramp in the most radical racing cam designs. " That doesn't happen in any cam I have ever seen...It may appear to but actually does not touch the edge...If it did the cam and lifter would be toast in a short time. The reason for using a larger diameter cam blank in a flathhead is because at anything over .420 lift on a stock core you can't get the cam in the block..To get "more cam" you need to increase the lift along with the RATE OF LIFT...On the Isky 505A and several other manufacturer's cams with more lift they either run the cam in the block or bore the cam line and put inserts in. It is possible to design a cam with a rate of lift so high that on a graph the accelleration curve would be a vertical line..This would require spring pressures so high in order to work that the system would fail mechanically. Isky found that .011 per degree squared was the practical limit for the 505A...In order to get more it would require an inverted flank acceleration ramp..That is not practical with a radius lifter....Many modern roller lifter racing cams have inverted flanks but they require spring pressures that are hard to imagine....In some cases 800 lb on the seat..1200 open...The springs are 2 inches in diameter, have 3 coils and are made from 5/16 diameter wire.

07-29-2010, 07:47 PM	#4
Henry Floored Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 583	Re: Boring a flathead [QUOTE=Pete;52570]"could be beneficial in not exposing the edge of the lifter to the camshaft lobe lifting ramp in the most radical racing cam designs. " That doesn't happen in any cam I have ever seen...It may appear to but actually does not touch the edge...If it did the cam and lifter would be toast in a short time. The reason for using a larger diameter cam blank in a flathhead is because at anything over .420 lift on a stock core you can't get the cam in the block..To get "more cam" you need to increase the lift along with the RATE OF LIFT...On the Isky 505A and several other manufacturer's cams with more lift they either run the cam in the block or bore the cam line and put inserts in. QUOTE] Pete this paragraph illustrates exactly what I meant. In my original statement I was merely pointing out something I would change (cam diameter) if one could do a "clean sheet" redesign of a Flathead Ford. With nothing to help multiply valve lift the cam bears the whole burden. In a perfect world I think a larger dia cam would be nice. As far as the lifters I guess I retract my statement to a point. While the stock Flathead Ford lifters are certainly adequate they too could be enlarged so as to focus the cam lobe footprint more within the diameter of the lifter. If a tomato can could represent the lifter and your finger the cam lobe's point of contact we can easily visualize this. When the finger tip is in the very center it is easy to balance the can, just like when the lifter is riding on the heel of the lobe touching it in the center. Slide the finger tip past center and the can wants to tip more and more just like the lifter wants to as it rises against the camshaft lift lobe. The process is repeated in reverse down the back of the lobe. You start building taller camshaft lobes and that moves the range of contact much farther out near the lifter margin. That's taxing on the lifter. That's all that I'm talking about.

07-29-2010, 02:23 PM	#5
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,896	Re: Boring a flathead One modification you can make to a cylinder head is to increase the angle of the transfer area into the cylinder. I cut this back with a ball end mill. However it lowers compression and I don't think it helps a street engine.

07-29-2010, 04:39 PM	#6
Tony Martino Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kingston NY Posts: 2,863	Re: Boring a flathead Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Just reading this post..... sort of like being in church! As an old time car guy (60) I love the enthusiasm and the interest. I have been driving my 31 with a stock, lowly old 49-53 Merc V8 as an almost daily driver for about 7 years and never even added a 2 carb set-up, but hearing you guys has sparked my interest! Thanks for the inspiration! GREAT THREAD

07-29-2010, 06:50 PM	#7
Vergil Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tehachapi, CA Posts: 361	Re: Boring a flathead Great post and information to think about. Below is a picture of an 8ba I cut to see what it looked like through the port. Vergil __________________ Bigger fonts to aid in reading

07-29-2010, 10:13 PM	#8
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,896	Re: Boring a flathead Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.

07-30-2010, 12:32 AM	#13
HotRodmicky Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 249	Re: Boring a flathead Has anbody used Motor City Flathead heads and cams?

08-01-2010, 12:21 PM	#14
lucky Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 43	Re: Boring a flathead Ron If I wanted to build a late engine using 4" Merc crank, would you recomend the pop-up piston? If so [for street use] what pistons and rods would you recomend? Also what heads would be required for this? Thanks, marvin

08-01-2010, 01:08 PM	#15
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,896	Re: Boring a flathead No I don't think that running a pop-up piston would be of any advantage at the engine operating RPM. Also the higher CR may cause fuel and ignition problems. Build a tight combustion chamber, play with the transfer area. You might consider angle milling the heads. But all these mods have little affect at the normal cruising speeds of the engine.

08-02-2010, 12:17 PM	#16
Kahuna Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: NorCal Posts: 2,617	Re: Boring a flathead "What do you think is the highest streetable and naturally aspirated horsepower per cubic inch that is possible from a Flathead Ford? What about the same question for race engines?" This will generate some arguements, I'm sure, but for "streetable (very subjective), my educated guess, having seen 3 well built flatheads on a dyno, is that about 0.65 HP/CI average. Then there is the race flathead that Ken Kloth built, raced and set records with. It is about, not quite, 1.1 Hp/CI. Not really streetable, but was once or twice driven to the local cruise nites. Helpful? Jim

08-02-2010, 02:47 PM	#17
John R Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: near Washington, DC Posts: 559	Re: Boring a flathead As I recall, Ken Kloth's engine had a number of interesting features. Has any of these been documented in any detail in magazine articles or elsewhere? Be nice to learn more.

08-02-2010, 03:07 PM	#18
Henry Floored Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 583	Re: Boring a flathead I'd love to hear from Kenny Kloth. That guy is amazing. He is to Flatheads what Karol Miller was to Y-blocks.

08-02-2010, 06:11 PM	#20
Henry/Kokomo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Kokomo, Indiana Posts: 1,731	Re: Boring a flathead Really a 6:1 ratio ? I'm surprised the ratio isn't higher.