What is reasonable charge for engine work? 59A

[Old Henry]

I just had the bottom end of my engine redone. The bearings were worn out and needed replaced and the engine dismantled to clean it of all bearing fragments and balanced (rods, crank, flywheel, and clutch). So, question is, what is a reasonable charge for such, including removing and replacing the engine?

[hotcoupe]

in the $2,000.00 neighborhood, probably north of that figure. most of it is labor so a lot depends on his shop rate.
tom

[Mike51Merc]

Henry:

I have a question for you that is a little OT and a little personal because I happen to remember that you are a lawyer. When you say the bearings were worn out and "needed replaced" is that the same way you would say that in a conversation?

I ask because I see "needs restored", "needs replaced" and similar omissions of the verb to be on the internet. I don't know if this is a colloquialism that I've never seen before or if the verb to be is just disappearing from the English language.

[mfagan]

When I rebuilt my 8ba several years ago, the parts
were $ 900.00 not including any labor.

[swoopNZ]

They say to ensure better head gasket sealing you should remove all the cylinder head studs and have the block face milled.
Adds a bit to the overall cost.

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

Henry:

I have a question for you that is a little OT and a little personal because I happen to remember that you are a lawyer. When you say the bearings were worn out and "needed replaced" is that the same way you would say that in a conversation?

I ask because I see "needs restored", "needs replaced" and similar omissions of the verb to be on the internet. I don't know if this is a colloquialism that I've never seen before or if the verb to be is just disappearing from the English language.

You are certainly correct. The phrase should have been "needed to be replaced". Even I, the legal sage, take some short cuts in writing on a forum once in a while. But I don't write "your" for "you're" like way too many do, heaven forbid. (I even received a mass email recently from our new mayor with that one in it. He was pretty embarrassed when I called him on it.)

[J Franklin]

It would depend on what was actually done. If it was just R&R, clean, balance, and replace the rod and main bearings It should be less than $2,000.

[41ford1]

Just to give you some sort of ballpark number. My 53 six ran $1950.00. That included cleaning and checking the block and head, block machine work and rebuilding the head. The head needed all new valves, guides, springs and hardened valve seats. The block work included a sleeve in #3 and align bore. The other 5 Cylinders were honed. Piston to cylinder clearance checked good. The bushings on the small end of the rods were pressed in and the pistons installed. The shop provided the bearing sets, rings and gasket set. I did the final assembly of the of the engine.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

It would depend on what was actually done. If it was just R&R, clean, balance, and replace the rod and main bearings It should be less than $2,000.

Originally Posted by hotcoupe

in the $2,000.00 neighborhood, probably north of that figure. most of it is labor so a lot depends on his shop rate.
tom

All bearing surfaces on the crankshaft and rods had to be machined to fit the new bearings too. And the valves were all taken out to clean the block and put back in with new valve seats.

[Chris]

I think a long block around here is around 3K give or take. Still a ton of labor even if re-using most parts Add the balance and the remove/install and I will guess around 2,500.00. That is if nothing else needed replaced (ignition, belts, hoses...)

[flatjack9]

Gotta be at least $3000.00. As stated, a lot depends on the hourly shop rate.

[B-O-B]

Old henry you said the shop was going to stand behind their work. What is happening? None of my business but you want to know what a rebuild would run.
A few years back I paid a machine shop $1,800.00 just for machine work on my 312 engine.

Originally Posted by Old Henry
Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.

[Old Henry]

I was asking because I was expecting the garage to hit me up for more money when I went to pick up my car. I actually paid 2-3 times as much as anyone has suggested it should have cost but it didn't bother me as long as they weren't going to want more when I went to pick it up.

I couldn't quite believe that they just handed me the keys and said, "Take it away," when I just went and picked it up.

So, my question is moot.

"All is well in Zion. Yeah, Zion prospereth. All is well."

[jake197000]

to pull the engine and rebuild it, properly detail it ,put it back in, break it in,takes a LOT of time.i mean to do it right.

[Bored&Stroked]

If they removed the engine from the car and did all that work (and bought the parts) for $2000, then in my opinion they did a lot of work or a very reasonable price. It would be very hard for that work to be less than that - and I can see a lot of places charging a LOT more.

In the end, it really depends on the quality of the work and are you happy with it? I've found that I don't have a problem with the money when the work, customer service and results are good . . . so it kind of comes down to that.

When you're back on the road and enjoying your travels (and us as well!), it will be a small price to pay!

Most importantly . . . you'll be back on the road and we'll all be living vicariously via you and your posts! Awesome!

B&S

[Ol' Ron]

Recently, I had a frien have a block bored, pistons fitted and a valve job done for 800 dollars. At first I thought this was too hi, untill I realized what the cost of a loaf of beard cost. That was more than I charged for building an intire engine. including dissembling the dam thing.

[supereal]

At our shop, popular with vintage vehicles, the complete overhaul, boring, honing, valves, springs and seats, plus refitting rod and main inserts, runs in the range of $3,000 at regular rates. If the crank requires work, there is additional cost, of course, as does the labor involved in pulling and replacing the complete engine. If you can get it for less, something was likely overlooked. Our waiting list indicates we are priced correctly

[Talkwrench]

I do know of someone here in Perth Western Australia that rebuilds flatheads, Not a mechanical shop by the way just something they do.. About $10,000 was the price, if they put twin carbs on it.. Cant remember if they supply the block..?

[scooder]

Originally Posted by swoopNZ

They say to ensure better head gasket sealing you should remove all the cylinder head studs and have the block face milled.
Adds a bit to the overall cost.

Not a great idea on a Flathead, the deck surface is on the thin side to start with. I wouldn't do it unless it really needed it, and that's quite rare.
Martin.

[28A]

Scooder,

Would you suggest running a die over the tops of the studs to clean the nut threads, and a simple wire wheeling of the deck to ensure cleanliness?

Or, what else / would you suggest?

[C26Pinelake]

It won't be cheap. It will likely. Be at least $2500 and likely more. Please let us know.
Wayne

[AnthonyG]

Old Henry, you have indicated

I actually paid 2-3 times as much as anyone has suggested

That would be north of $6000. That amount should have bought you a completely rebuilt engine from any # of companies specializing in Flathead rebuilt engines. While I agree the amount of work you had done is significant the shop should have let you know in advance and at least given you a + or - 10 % estimate. If they had done that your decision I'm sure would have been to procure a new ( freshly rebuilt ) engine from one of these companies with a warranty. Or if you paid for the shipping would have done same for your engine. I spent $7000 on a turn key 8BA with significant polished aluminum, chrome and lot's of performance items. Not sure but as you are a Lawyer and would know better, but I'd go after them for not being "fair and reasonable" with regard to giving you the correct information with regard to price in advance so you could have made an informed decision. They should bear a part of the fee.

[BlueSunoco]

Building Flatheads sounds cheaper than doing a Model A Ford 4 banger. They run four grand right off the top and hopefully you can find someone who knows the RIGHT way to pour babbitt or else you are looking at another rebuild in a thousand miles or less. Happens all the time read the Model A side

[Chris]

Originally Posted by 28A

Scooder,

Would you suggest running a die over the tops of the studs to clean the nut threads, and a simple wire wheeling of the deck to ensure cleanliness?

Or, what else / would you suggest?

The threads are rolled threads...not cut. So if you run a standard tap or die over the threads or in the block your really gonna have a leaker

[Ronnie]

There is some good info here for the home shop. Rolled threads aren't used in holes only studs bolts and screws.
http://www.kmstools.com/blog/hand-ta...ng-techniques/

R

[ronn]

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Ol Ron-so tell me, how does a loaf of beard taste...........?

[JSeery]

Almost all of these numbers seem low to me, you guys must have some really great deals going with the mechanics. One issue I see is we are mixing apples and oranges here. Most of the price quotes were for machine work only on a carry-in carry-out engine or for machine work and assembly on a complete rebuild. This was driving a car in and having it fixed. The shop had to pull the engine, disassemble it, determine the problems and research how to fix it, get the parts, reassemble it and reinstall it. I'm sure a shop familiar with working on flatheads would be much quicker at it, but that was not the case. So, I think comparing basic machine work or the price of a rebuilt engine is not going to compare very well.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by supereal

At our shop, popular with vintage vehicles, the complete overhaul, boring, honing, valves, springs and seats, plus refitting rod and main inserts, runs in the range of $3,000 at regular rates. If the crank requires work, there is additional cost, of course, as does the labor involved in pulling and replacing the complete engine. If you can get it for less, something was likely overlooked. Our waiting list indicates we are priced correctly

BINGO! Perfectly stated!

In fact, in this area to get the job done correctly, it's in the $4000+ range.

[19Fordy]

Gosh, I recall that in 1963 I paid $5 a hole to have my flatty bored to 3 3/8"

But, I was making $1.15 an hour stocking shelves at a Grand Union super market.

[Kahuna]

I totally agree with JSeery here, regarding the mixing of apples and oranges. A price point of +/- $6k is not unreasonable at all considering the removal, repair (rebuild), and re-installation.
Here I think it would be closer to $10k

[Jeff/Illinois]

Seems like around here it runs, neighborhood, $2,500- $3,000 for a complete job, turning down crank, everything. That's what friends have told me.....

[Mike51Merc]

For labor only (I supplied all the parts) I had 8 holes bored 0.030, crank turned 0.010, rods reconditioned, two cracks pinned (and two valve seats bored and installed), cam bearings installed, 16 valve seats cut and entire short block reassembled for about $1500. The parts cost me about $1200 from different sources.

I dropped off and picked up the short block from the shop. If I had just dropped off the car and picked it up the same job could easily have been $6000.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

For labor only (I supplied all the parts) I had 8 holes bored 0.030, crank turned 0.010, rods reconditioned, two cracks pinned (and two valve seats bored and installed), cam bearings installed, 16 valve seats cut and entire short block reassembled for about $1500. The parts cost me about $1200 from different sources.

I dropped off and picked up the short block from the shop. If I had just dropped off the car and picked it up the same job could easily have been $6000.

Quite reasonable.

R

[rotorwrench]

Most folks in the hobby probably do most of the work themselves like I do. I have all the labor saving devices to do everything by myself. I farm out the machine work since I don't have the required equipment for that. I take extra time to clean & restore finishes and the like that most shops don't do because I like a tidy job on my own stuff. I would have to charge a mint to do someone elses job if I did it like my own.

If you asked the average auto shop what they would charge for a flat rate on an old flathead vehicle, they wouldn't have any idea since most have never come close to one. It's fewer and farther between the shops that actually have done it enough to be able to flat rate any of the work. Shop rates down here seem to be between $75 & $85 per hour these days but some figure the parts bill up then multiply that by 2 for the labor if you can believe that. I've seen it before and that's another reason I do it all myself.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by 28A

Scooder,

Would you suggest running a die over the tops of the studs to clean the nut threads, and a simple wire wheeling of the deck to ensure cleanliness?

Or, what else / would you suggest?

Wire wheel in a drill motor, fiddly job with the studs in. Doable if your patient, small wire wheels to go round stud threads. I have done this on one that only needed no more machine work, had good studs none broke or missing. Didn't want to pull the studs if I really didn't have to.
You will probably split a few knuckles and lean some new swear words.
I have in the past cleaned the top threads of the studs with a die. Didn't cause a problem, I know it's not the best thing to do. Not the course bottom threads, just wire wheel on a bench grinder, or small wheel in a drill press running fast.
Studs out, just wire wheel in a drill motor over the deck.
Martin.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by AnthonyG

Old Henry, you have indicated
That would be north of $6000. That amount should have bought you a completely rebuilt engine from any # of companies specializing in Flathead rebuilt engines. While I agree the amount of work you had done is significant the shop should have let you know in advance and at least given you a + or - 10 % estimate. If they had done that your decision I'm sure would have been to procure a new ( freshly rebuilt ) engine from one of these companies with a warranty. Or if you paid for the shipping would have done same for your engine. I spent $7000 on a turn key 8BA with significant polished aluminum, chrome and lot's of performance items. Not sure but as you are a Lawyer and would know better, but I'd go after them for not being "fair and reasonable" with regard to giving you the correct information with regard to price in advance so you could have made an informed decision. They should bear a part of the fee.

Anthony, Many folks would disagree but lawyers are human beings too. As such, there are good and bad humans / lawyers. And, as such, there are humans / lawyers that learn from their mistakes, take the advice from those well heeled and don't make the same mistake twice, er, three times. And then there are those that don't...

[28A]

Originally Posted by Chris

The threads are rolled threads...not cut. So if you run a standard tap or die over the threads or in the block your really gonna have a leaker

Chris,

I'm talking about the threads that the nut goes on to hold the head down, i'm aware of the threads in the block being different and that you definitely shouldn't use a tap in them, rather a thread chaser.

Originally Posted by scooder

Wire wheel in a drill motor, fiddly job with the studs in. Doable if your patient, small wire wheels to go round stud threads. I have done this on one that only needed no more machine work, had good studs none broke or missing. Didn't want to pull the studs if I really didn't have to.
You will probably split a few knuckles and lean some new swear words.
I have in the past cleaned the top threads of the studs with a die. Didn't cause a problem, I know it's not the best thing to do. Not the course bottom threads, just wire wheel on a bench grinder, or small wheel in a drill press running fast.
Studs out, just wire wheel in a drill motor over the deck.
Martin.

Thanks for that info, pretty much what i was thinking. I suppose when the studs are in and the head needs a clean there isn't much else you can do about it. If you leave the studs in, is there still enough room to put new valve seats in and have them machined?

[Old Henry]

As I explained previously, I didn't ask my question to judge the reasonableness of what I'd already paid. If I cared about that I would have asked before I took it in. I was just glad to find someone willing to work on it who was recommended by a local member of the EFV8 club. The amount I paid was within the range of what I expected to pay and I was not and am not dissatisfied with it. I was just asking in case they wanted more money for redoing everything. They didn't. So, I'm good.

I drove 300 miles last night and today on a quick overnight road trip with Pepe and the engine ran smoother than it ever has. I was accidentally creeping up to 75-80 mph without even realizing it, and could still see through my mirrors (previously at those speeds I'd have just enough vibration to shake the mirrors so I couldn't see clearly through them.)

I didn't ask the garage for an estimate when I took the car in because I wasn't even sure what was wrong with the engine nor what would have to be done and knew they could not estimate without knowing. They just gave me their hourly shop rate of $85 and dug into it. The mechanic was very meticulous and maybe slower than one that had worked on flatheads all of his life but I didn't have any of those around any more. When I picked up the car and they gave me the bill I just wrote them the check, grateful to have the car on the road again.

[B-O-B]

Good news on your test drive. Now enjoy & drive the crap out it. You can't put a price on happiness or can you? Maybe some do but I don't.

[Old Henry]

Since it is fairly certain that we can't take our money with us to the other side, I'm spending mine on memories of this life that I'm pretty sure will go with me.

Likewise, having a garage full of "trailer queens" when I'm 90 wouldn't bring near the peace and happy memories as driving my one old flathead to death over and over and over again as long as I can.

[Talkwrench]

Damn straight!

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Since it is fairly certain that we can't take our money with us to the other side, I spending mine on memories of this life that I'm pretty sure will go with me.

Likewise, having a garage full to "trailer queens" when I'm 90 won't bring near the peace and happy memories of driving my one old flathead to death over and over and over while I can.

Love it.

[AnthonyG]

Glad your a happy camper!

[BillM]

Did you or the shop determine what was causing the vibration ?

[JSeery]

Rods and crank out of balance.

[Old Henry]

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Originally Posted by BillM

Did you or the shop determine what was causing the vibration ?

It turned out that quite a bit of balancing needed doing all around.
One of the connecting rods was "odd" and weighed 30 grams less than the rest, so some metal had to come off of all the rest to get them all the same weight. (Metal taken off of the bottom edge of the connecting ring)



The crankshaft also needed quite a bit of "adjusting" to be balanced. (Note holes drilled to remove metal to balance)




It's no wonder such needed doing when the original crank was missing a chunk of metal at one point from casting problems.





Then there was the new clutch I just bought from Fort Wayne Clutch that needed weight added to two flanges to get it in balance.



The flywheel was balanced then indexed with the clutch to put together so they'd be balanced together.

[Mike51Merc]

Henry:

It's probably a little late for this, but your ring gear looks like it needs replaced.

[rotorwrench]

I've seen quite a few crankshafts with roughness on the back side of the counterweights. There may have been gas pockets inside the molds where the gasses couldn't escape during the poor. The crankshafts were cast in multiples then they were cut apart after they cooled. FoMoCo balanced them but I don't know what there minimum vibration specs were and I don't know what they used for bob weights. Generally they got them pretty close but if the rods are changed then the bob weights also have to be changed and that affects the overall balance. It doesn't look like they took too much off though It's not unusual to do that to get them in good balance. Sometimes they even pour melted heavy metal in the holes to add weight.

That old ring does have some wear but I've seen a lot worse still in service.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike51Merc

Henry:

It's probably a little late for this, but your ring gear looks like it needs replaced.

Or, needs replacing? (Is that any better?)

I'll keep that in mind for next time.

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Or, needs replacing? (Is that any better?)

I'll keep that in mind for next time.

If it's as bad as it looks in the pics, your machinist really should have mentioned it.

[barnfind]

Curious - is the main cap safety wire normally done in this fashion?
Looks to be adequately functional but I have never seen a flathead bottom end apart.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

About all those flatheads cranks have hunk that looks like it's been broke out but I understand it where the factory brakes it out of the mold. I'm sure there balanced and probably use bob weights and know what the rods and pistons weigh. But now days when we get these engines whey have been built before and rods mix up and pistons changed. SO That is why I have all my engines balanced. Walt

[rotorwrench]

I've seen the films that show the cranks being removed from the mold shell and they weren't dainty with them. The casting with sprues and all were dropped down to knock the sand off. A lot of times the cranks would bust away from the tree sprues. What didn't break away from the tree was cut apart. They were just rough ground to remove the flash & protrusions before going on the machine shop.

[oldford2]

Just curious about the nuts and studs on Ol Henry's main caps. Didn't the main caps have bolts?? John

[flatjack9]

Studs were used until the introduction of the 8BA.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by 28A

Chris,

I'm talking about the threads that the nut goes on to hold the head down, i'm aware of the threads in the block being different and that you definitely shouldn't use a tap in them, rather a thread chaser.



Thanks for that info, pretty much what i was thinking. I suppose when the studs are in and the head needs a clean there isn't much else you can do about it. If you leave the studs in, is there still enough room to put new valve seats in and have them machined?

Never done seat cutting with studs in, if it needsmachining I pull the studs. There at a different angle to the seats, and can only imagine they'd be in the way.
Question for your machine shop really, I'd want them out, sorry.
Martin.

[supereal]

Use only a "chasing" tap or die to clean threads. Otherwise, you run the risk of damaging already fragile threads due to annealing caused by decades of hot/cold cycles. As for the surface of the heads and engine deck, there is a big difference between milling and surfacing. Heads and blocks should be carefully checked with a straightedge and, if necessary, just enough material should be removed to restore the surface.

[scooder]

The heat produced by a running engine, can't aneal metal parts.
The threads on the factory studs are very good and very strong.
Martin.

[Kahuna]

Scooder, you are quite correct

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

I've seen quite a few crankshafts with roughness on the back side of the counterweights. There may have been gas pockets inside the molds where the gasses couldn't escape during the poor. The crankshafts were cast in multiples then they were cut apart after they cooled. FoMoCo balanced them but I don't know what there minimum vibration specs were and I don't know what they used for bob weights. Generally they got them pretty close but if the rods are changed then the bob weights also have to be changed and that affects the overall balance. It doesn't look like they took too much off though It's not unusual to do that to get them in good balance. Sometimes they even pour melted heavy metal in the holes to add weight.

That old ring does have some wear but I've seen a lot worse still in service.

I think someone showed a video of the cranks being cast. They came out in batches of 4 and were broken apart. That "chunk" is where they are cast together and then broken apart while still white hot.

[rotorwrench]

Actually the annealing he is refering to is associated with the cast iron. It is more a form of metal fatigue that is related to some measure of annealing with temperature cycling but how much the affect is depends on the amount of cycles endured over time. Steel hardware would not be affected by this but can be affected by other forms of metal fatigue.

There is also some contention about the blocks being closer to cast steel than ductile cast iron or nodular cast iron but there is a fine line there about carbon content and I still haven't heard of anyone other than Joe Abbin doing any metallurgy testing there to confirm or deny the results. The fact of the matter is that the damn things do crack no matter what the make up is.