How have you kept your engine warm at night outside?

[Mike B]

Henry,

I wonder if you could take your coil off, stick it in the freezer over night, try to be quick and install it, and see if she fires right up, or not.

Might even try the condenser next, but not at the same time.

I know all you Utahans have deep freezes for the Elk/Deer to get ya through for the year

I used to hunt up on what was called "Skyline", way back when, used to look down at the clouds!

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Henry,

I used to hunt up on what was called "Skyline", way back when, used to look down at the clouds!

I did a day trip over Skyline weekend before last here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ht=energy+loop

[PeteVS]

Here's an idea...
Check and see what your spark looks like when the car is just out of the garage. I seem to recall that Briggs and Stratton had an adjustable device for checking arc length from lawn motor magnetos. Something like that might give you a good idea of how good the spark is at good temperatures. Check the primary voltage at the coil while the engine is cranking. Then, let it sit outside for a night and check spark and primary voltage when cold. If primary voltage is way down, see if a second battery powering just the ignition can get a better spark. If primary coil voltage is good, but spark is weak, look into replacing cap and rotor. Traveling, it might be possible to have a small 12V gel cell that you could take into your nice warm room overnight and do a quick hook up in the morning just to get the darn thing running. Make sense? Another point to consider might be moisture. It might be possible that as low as the dew point is out there in the dry lands, a cold night might push the temp down below that dew point and you might be getting frost in or on the high voltage components. Could be that you've done a lot of driving in moist snowy, slushy conditions when this happens. (Once had a stovebolt six that wouldn't start. Cap and plug wires were all damp. Borrowed the neighbor's nice dry cap and plug wires to start the car and then switched back once the engine had warmed up and it ran fine. The damp set up could start a warm car but not when it was frigid.)

http://www.buyamower.co.uk/product/b...ter-19368.aspx

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

I did a day trip over Skyline weekend before last here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ht=energy+loop

I watched the video, you must have gone later than we hunted (October/early Nov as I recall)...never saw that much snow.

We'd go through Provo Canyon (as I recall) past a town that had been washed away on the left....keep on trucking and Willie Nelson had a large ranch off to the right.

Seems as I recall, we'd pull into some small towm...fuel up...get supplies needed...drive out of town a bit, then head off of some road to the left...up the whole way...kind windee, not severe...get right up near the top and enter into dirt road...off to the left...travel back oh, geesh, 5-6 miles?...and make camp...

Now on that ridge we camped on, if you went left, down to the bottom and back up to the top, you'd hit a fence, and sign pronouncing "BLM land"

Now, you were able to drive around then hike up.

Sound familiar?

Beautiful country for sure.

I got to know the lay of the land over the years of hunting there, via the bunt forest and fallen trees.

[keith oh]

If you are not getting a strong spark with wire held close to head bolt then it is something between the plugs, assuming they are clean and gapped proper, and back to the coil. I am assuming Skip checked the capicator when he rebuilt the coil. The only thing left is the distributor and its components which needs to be checked for cracks, rotor for fouling and cracks and lastly maybe your spark is advanced to far, or a combinatiion of them all....... Maybe a pissed off student put a spitball under the coil wire end.

[Old Henry]

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Funny. The more I read all of the ideas about how to get my engine to start below 20° and why it doesn't the more it reminds me of all of the ideas for dealing with vapor lock. Two totally different problems dealing with extremes of temperature. After considering them all I think the solution for cold starting is, in fact, as simple as the solution for vapor lock.

To respond to all of the suggestions I haven't responded to yet:

I have a new battery and it works fine. Jumping with the tow truck battery cranked it faster but didn't start it.

Coil was rebuilt by Skip last year and works fine.

Distributor was new from Bubba's last year and works fine.

Spark is advanced all the way for my high elevation and works fine.

Ground wires are all new and connect to bare clean metal.

Spark from wire to head bolt above 20° is nice and healthy.

I have a spare 12 volt battery I keep charged up in the trunk to jump with when necessary and kept it in my motel room a year ago until time for the jump. Still wouldn't start.

Don't know much about dew point nor what to do about it. If that's the problem heating the whole engine compartment up should fix that.

Condenser is new from Bubba's and works fine.

After problem getting cranking speed last year because of S.A.E. 40 oil switched to 20W-50 for this winter. Ford recommended S.A.E. 20 between 10° and 30° so that seems about right. Thinner oil might help cranking speed but this engine wouldn't start at correct cranking speed anyway until warmed up.

Haven't tried using higher octane gas but understanding what that is and what it does and doesn't do I don't think that would help.

I jumped past the coil resistor to increase voltage to the coil but didn't help.

No spit ball under the coil wire.

So, having pretty much been through all of that analysis before, I concluded that there is nothing wrong with my system and that it just needs a little heat over night to start in the morning under 20°. That's why I asked what I did.

Thanks for all of the ideas anyway.

Wife and I (not Pepe this time) are doing a road trip to Lava Hot Springs, Idaho and Teton National Park for the upcoming Valentine weekend and am going to keep the entire engine compartment warm all night, oil, block, coil, battery, everything, and see how it starts in the morning. I'll report.

Thanks again for all of your responses. I really do appreciate it.

[scooder]

Right, firstly when you use your 12volt battery for jumping, how are you connecting this to your car? In your weak spark situation I would turn the ignition on then bang the 12 volts straight to earth and the starter. This way your getting full 6volt to your ignition system. Worth a go?
Secondly, These old Ford V8's have a well deserved good reputation of being able to start in a situation that most others won't, extreme cold being one if them. Walt for one mentioned this. (these are in the day's before swapping out points for electronic upgrades? And such) yours is showing a week spark at this temperature, it would be prudent to find out why. The extreme cold IS showing a weakness somewhere in your ignition system. (if other Ford V8's start at this temp, so should yours, if all the components are up to spec) I would suggest going through the ignition system step by step (ignoring the its new so must be good idea) in an open minded fashion. All of it including the ignition switch. I like the earlier suggestion of freezing the coil and seeing what that does on another wise UN frozen engine. I'm not saying that skips coil is no good, I rebuild distributors and carbs, I test these on a running engine and scope before they are sent out, but I don't freeze test them. You can't test for all scenarios most but not all. But this freezing the coil and test then condenser and test, is a systematic test. Pretty sure you'll find the weak part.
If you find that the coil is the part that don't like the real cold, take this off overnight to keep some warm in him, and refit and go in the morning.
Again just to reiterate, I'm using the coil as an example, not saying skips coils are no good,from what I can tell their pretty much the best there is.
And the importance of an open minded approach, "it's to cold" is no good when comparable stuff will fire and run at the same temperature.
Martin.

[Old Henry]

UPDATE. To study my cold starting problem more before heading to Teton National Park on Thursday I decided to leave the car outside all night Wednesday night to see if it would start so I could study why not if it didn't. Unfortunately the temperature only got down to 39° F and was up to 41° F by the time I tried starting. No problem at that temperature. Started fine.

So, we drove to Lava Hot Springs, ID for the first night of our Valentine's Day get away. We stayed in the Graystone Manor.



Now this was a pretty cool place. It was exactly the same age as Old Henry having been completed in 1947 after 17 years of construction with hand quarried stone. It was a Mormon church until 1979 when it was abandoned for 17 years and saved by purchase just two weeks before demolition by a couple who renovated it into a bed and breakfast and reception center. http://www.greystonelavahotsprings.com/

Although it had no outside plugs for my idea for keeping Old Henry warm at night it was on a hill so, worse come to worse, I figured I could coast downhill to start.

In the morning it was 26° F so I wasn't expecting a big problem. It almost started on the 6 volt battery but not quite. This time I had the big 12 volt battery from my one ton van in the trunk to jump from. It cranked it fast enough but every time it popped to start the starter motor disengaged and it wouldn't start. Tried over and over and finally decided it was going to take the hill.

Coasted backward down to the next intersection and around the corner up hill then forward downhill to pop the clutch in second. That eventually started it but it had to crank longer than usual before it started.

Ran fine from there but I looked forward to the Anvil Inn in Jackson Hole, WY where I had checked to make sure they had an outside plug to plug in.

So, that night I tried my idea for keeping Old Henry warm to start easier the next morning. It cost me nothing and took no permanent installation.

I brought along two $20.00 space heaters that I already had and my 6 volt battery charger. I set the two heaters on their lowest 600 watt setting and turned their thermostats just below maximum. I could have used one heater that could also be set for 900 watts or the full 1500 watts but wanted heat coming onto both sides of the engine and didn't want to trip the circuit breaker so set for total of 1200 watts. Then put one heater in the engine compartment on both sides of the engine,



put a blanket in front of the radiator to keep the heat from escaping through the radiator and grill,



put the battery charger in front of the blanket so that it wasn't in the heated space since it created its own heat and needed cooled instead of heated,



hooked the battery charger to the battery, closed the hood, and plugged it all in anticipating a nice easy start in the morning.

In the morning I opened the hood and felt the engine. I didn't have a laser thermometer but it felt like it was between 90 and 100° F. So was everything else in the engine compartment - the battery, the coil, the oil, the fenders, the firewall, everything.

So, got inside and tried starting it. Beautiful, just like a warm summer morning. No problem at all.

OK. It wasn't really a true test of starting below freezing where I've had my problems because it was 34° F. But, I'm totally satisfied that this system would work in any temperature.

Removed the two heaters, the blanket, and the battery charger and let the engine fast idle for a few minutes to warm it up a little more then shut it off and went back to the motel room to haul the stuff out.

Came out about 30 minutes later with our stuff, loaded it up, got in to start and no start. It cranked just fine but no pop at all.

I'd had the same problem the night before after parking it on the street downtown for about an hour while we ate. Got in to start it. Cranked fine but no pop. Got out, opened the hood, put a jumper to bypass the coil resistor and it started just fine. Did the same thing that morning and same thing - started just fine. Both times removed the jumper after starting and ran just fine all the way home.

So, I need to test that coil resistor to see if it's bad and not letting enough juice through to start or what else might be the problem.

If I had to leave the car outside all winter and start it every morning I'd likely install something more permanent like the block heaters. But, for just one or two frigid starts per year I think this system works just great. Even if I'd had to buy the two space heaters they would have been less than any other alternative and were temporary so could be removed without changing the stock system.

Just thought someone might like to know.

[Drbrown]

Like the guy in the Viagra commercial .... always tow a trailer with horses in it. If you can't get the horse to sleep on the engine to keep it warm, leave the car and ride him home before that darn light in the bedroom window burns-out .... (there's no spare light bulbs either).

P.S. ( There aren't any guardrails or curbs .... Why doesn't that Viagra guy just drive around the puddle in the road ???? Maybe it dulls his thought processes. )

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Drbrown

Like the guy in the Viagra commercial .... always tow a trailer with horses in it. If you can't get the horse to sleep on the engine to keep it warm, leave the car and ride him home before that darn light in the bedroom window burns-out .... (there's no spare light bulbs either).

Good one Drbrown ....and if this condition lasts for more than 4 hours, call your doctor

[911 STEVE]

A kid was ice fishing for the 1st time& not catching anything. He saw an old guy on the other side of the lake just reeling them in. He went over and asked him what his secret was. The old man mumbled a few times, the kid couldn't understand him so he went back to fishing with the same results. Finally the kid went over again to ask the secret. The old man spit out a bunch of goo & said "you have to keep your worms warm".

[mtflat]

I ran my 48 F1 for 10 years as a daily driver in nw Montana in temps down to -25F. Only ever used a small ceramic heater pointed toward the distributor and carburator. Never worried much about the oil. Set on hi heat and high fan it kept things dry and warm enough that with a little choke it would fire on command.

[PeteVS]

When you try a cold start and you say that the spark is weak, is it weak at the plug connection? And if it's weak at the plug, is it weak at the coil? I just have a feeling that you have a high voltage leak somewhere when a component gets cold. Having the engine warmed up a bit and then shut off might be letting the cap or the rotor or whatever get cold enough to fail even though the block and heads are toasty warm.

[Old Henry]

I think I'll install a coil booster line from the starter terminal on the starter solenoid to the battery side of the coil after the resistor (bypassing it) with a diode in the line to keep the current from running back to the starter and keeping it spinning after the solenoid cuts off (as happened to me when I tried the same thing before without the diode). That should help overcome the robbing of current to the coil by the starter, particularly when cold. Here are the details: http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/fil...k%20Start1.jpg

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by PeteVS

When you try a cold start and you say that the spark is weak, is it weak at the plug connection? And if it's weak at the plug, is it weak at the coil? I just have a feeling that you have a high voltage leak somewhere when a component gets cold. Having the engine warmed up a bit and then shut off might be letting the cap or the rotor or whatever get cold enough to fail even though the block and heads are toasty warm.

You are probably right but diagnosing which component is weakened or failing when below 20° is pretty tough. It hasn't been that cold here for quite a while. I hoped to do some of that before my last trip but it wasn't cold enough. I don't know of a deep freeze big enough to cool Old Henry down below 20° to do all of that diagnostic testing. The idea of freezing each component then installing it and testing it fast enough to keep it from warming up doesn't seem to have enough chance of success to try it. Much easier to just warm every single thing up on those one or two nights a year I've got to start below 20° plus install the fairly easy, cheap, and inconspicuous coil booster circuit I just described.

Thanks for your concern, thoughts and ideas.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by mtflat

I ran my 48 F1 for 10 years as a daily driver in nw Montana in temps down to -25F. Only ever used a small ceramic heater pointed toward the distributor and carburator. Never worried much about the oil. Set on hi heat and high fan it kept things dry and warm enough that with a little choke it would fire on command.

Those little cheap 1500 watt space heaters put out 5,000 BTU's! (And the ones that cost 10 times as much don't put out any more if they plug into household current.) I can warm my whole garage up in a very short time with three of them going. Glad to see I'm not alone using them to keep the engine warm and that they'll work way below the temperatures I've had trouble starting at. Thanks for the response.

[BillM]

I think that diode is connected backward for a positive ground system in the link you posted. See http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_...html#03247.png . Also a diode will drop about .7 volts across it; a momentary switch or relay would be more efficient.
Do you have any spare condensers on hand ?; it would be interesting to see what they measured after a night in the freeezer.

[Binx]

Originally Posted by 911 STEVE

A kid was ice fishing for the 1st time& not catching anything. He saw an old guy on the other side of the lake just reeling them in. He went over and asked him what his secret was. The old man mumbled a few times, the kid couldn't understand him so he went back to fishing with the same results. Finally the kid went over again to ask the secret. The old man spit out a bunch of goo & said "you have to keep your worms warm".

Reminds me of how my grandfather kept maggots (bait) warm while white fishing in winter when I was a kid in Mt. Yuck. I'd keep them in a container in my armpit. He was faster on the draw with them in his lower lip though.

Sorry for going off-topic. Couldn't resist nostalgia.

Lonnie

[russcc]

Couple tips from my friend Harold who ran a service station up in St Johnsbury VT for 25 years. Top notch mechanic who won the Chrysler Trouble shooting contest in high school, and held NHRA #16 Top fuel license. In the winter, 5W-20W oil. Turn the headlights on for 45 seconds before starting, warms up the battery. Pour warm water on the battery. A warm battery is a happy battery.

[Teich]

It reads like you have tested every thing, you bypassed the resistor and it wouldn't fire-that is the same as the starter relay with the extra terminal. When is the last time the starter was checked? It may be drawing all the power from the battery and leaving not quite enough power to run the ignition. Check the battery cables, both sides all the connections, ground at top of engine at firewall two places etc. If the engine turns it should start, you stated that you smelled fuel at the rear so it is getting gas just no spark. Laurie