The Ford Barn

36tudordeluxe · 05-30-2016, 07:13 PM

Trying to correct a low compression problem on an engine with less than 400 miles on it. Have lapped the valves to the seats and would now like to hone the cylinders and replace the rings. Everything is removed from the block but the crank; it's not removed because the engine is on a test stand rather than an engine stand. Is it completely out of the question to hone with the crank in it?

Ronnie · 05-30-2016, 07:31 PM

Buy a flex hone works well easy to use.
Pay attention to cylinder cleaning afterwards as that is where the job can go south on you real easy.

No solvent ,gasoline,diesel fuel,to be used ever.That is a recipe for disaster.

R

36tudordeluxe · 05-30-2016, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Buy a flex hone works well easy to use.
Pay attention to cylinder cleaning afterwards as that is where the job can go south on you real easy.

No solvent ,gasoline,diesel fuel,to be used ever.That is a recipe for disaster.

R

I'll be meticulous in my clean up, but is this safe to do with the crank in the block; planning on using lightly soaked oil rags at the bottom of the cylinders during honing?

Ronnie · 05-30-2016, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

I'll be meticulous in my clean up, but is this safe to do with the crank in the block; planning on using lightly soaked oil rags at the bottom of the cylinders during honing?

It is safe.How are you honing?

R

36tudordeluxe · 05-30-2016, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie

It is safe.How are you honing?

R

My concern is the debris from the honing operation. My only experience is brake cylinders and lifter bores.

Ronnie · 05-30-2016, 09:48 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 36tudordeluxe

My concern is the debris from the honing operation. My only experience is brake cylinders and lifter bores.

Use a flex hone very forgiving a 3 legged spring hone is really stone age stuff.Flex hones have been around for sometime. Many machine shops use them for glaze breaking.Go to a machine shop and talk to them for results.
Lifter bores and brake cylinder's are small bore jobs different finish than new ring requirements of today.Someone one in Vegas will help you out.

http://www.brushresearch.com/
http://www.brushresearch.com/videos.php

R

Brian · 05-30-2016, 10:08 PM

If it were me, I'd pull the crank. Hone the Bare block. Easier to get everything clean that way.

Jack E/NJ · 05-30-2016, 10:19 PM

>>>engine with less than 400 miles on it.>>>

What does this mean? Was it rebuilt less than 400 miles ago? If so, it should've been honed and re-ringed then. The low compression was probably due to not being properly broken in yet.

Jack E/NJ

cas3 · 05-30-2016, 10:29 PM

i am no expert, but when i hone i use a hospital type iv bottle that is dribbling diesel fuel while honing. that is very fine grit that then must be washed off the bores with carb cleaner or starting fluid spray untill a paper towel comes out clean white. messy operation that will be hard to keep out of the bearings. crank out would be best as you are not far from that already. you must think up some way to seal up the mains, maybe silicone?

Binx · 05-31-2016, 12:30 AM

Turn the block upside down on the stand and sit on a stool then have at it. Try to get a 35 degree angle on the crosshatch. Clean clean like Ronnie said after you're done. That means water, laundry detergent and a toilet brush until you can wipe the bore with a lint-free paper towel and it comes out clean.

Lonnie

40 Deluxe · 05-31-2016, 02:05 AM

Did you do a leakdown test to determine where the 'lost' compression was going? If it was due to the rings, there would have been copious amounts of blow-by out the crankcase vent. If valves, noticeable hissing out the tailpipe or intake manifold. Just what were the symptoms and compression readings?

topfuel724 · 05-31-2016, 03:27 AM

When we were honing race blocks between rounds with a flex hone we would get some PVC pipe the size of the rods journals and put them on the crank to keep the grit from getting on the journals, then clean cylinders well with brake clean and blue towels.

JWL · 05-31-2016, 04:54 AM

I guess it is possible to seal off the crankcase and do the honing but I don't see any advantage to doing that if the engine is not in a car. Cleaning the block after honing is a important job.

I would use a brush or ball hone because the cyl bores are probably not round and straight after being run and likely will not get 100% coverage unless an excess of stock is removed with a more rigid hone. Stroking up and down with the hone has to be coordinated with the RPM of the drive motor. It is usually pretty quick even with a 500 RPM driver.

Frank Miller · 05-31-2016, 06:45 AM

Like someone else said, low compression at 400 miles makes me ask more questions than honing will fix. Are the walls even glazed? I've pulled apart motors with many more miles and can still see the honing marks. I think you need to do a bit more investigating.

Ronnie · 05-31-2016, 09:48 AM

Another question that should be asked.What work was done to the engine 400 clicks ago that has produced the symptoms described,and who performed the work?
You have also received some poor info on what to use as a lube during the honing operation.With careful planning it is possible to do in your situation just not the most desirable. JWL states some good info.Just sayin.

R

19Fordy · 05-31-2016, 11:01 AM

For some reason, I am remembering the days when baking soda was added through the spark plug hole and the engine run to "break the glaze."
Is that a bad idea and an old wive's tale?

flatheadmurre · 05-31-2016, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

For some reason, I am remembering the days when baking soda was added through the spark plug hole and the engine run to "break the glaze."
Is that a bad idea and an old wive's tale?

Whatever you pour down the cylinder and run will give vertical honing...not a great thing for oilcontrol...

36tudordeluxe · 05-31-2016, 11:23 AM

The cylinders aren't glazed and I can see honing cross hatch pattern just as it came from the machine shop. But what I do see is very light "scuff" marks 90° from the wrist pins on both sides of the pistons with corresponding marks on the cylinder walls; this is on all pistons and cylinders. Could the bores from the machine shop been too large for the pistons and the pistons are wobbling or slapping the sides of the cylinders. Never did a leak down test, but squirting oil in the cylinders did bring the compression up slightly. Compression ranged from 65-90 lbs. on all cylinders. There were no symptoms, no blow by or smoking out the exhaust, just low compression readings. I did make the mistake of running the engine in the chassis while completing the rest of the restoration and didn't follow recommended startup procedures as suggested by JWL and others. I was totally ignorant at the time of break in
protocol. Going to digest all of this before proceeding any further. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

Jack E/NJ · 05-31-2016, 12:16 PM

Hope your compression gauge was accurate. 8^) If it were mine, I'd probably replace what needs replacing from the teardown, button it back up, make sure it runs like it did before, throw it back in the car and run it for a few thousand miles. Then I'd report back on the barn with the results.

Jack E/NJ

rotorwrench · 05-31-2016, 05:07 PM

I'd want to know what the piston to cylinder clearances are. Different types of piston require different clearance specs ie forged require more & cast require less. Wrong specs will lead to problems. You will need to know this stuff even before you go to honing. If it's way loose, all the honing in the world won't make it better.

05-30-2016, 07:13 PM	#1
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Cylinder honing? Trying to correct a low compression problem on an engine with less than 400 miles on it. Have lapped the valves to the seats and would now like to hone the cylinders and replace the rings. Everything is removed from the block but the crank; it's not removed because the engine is on a test stand rather than an engine stand. Is it completely out of the question to hone with the crank in it?

05-30-2016, 07:31 PM	#2
Ronnie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canada Where it snows Posts: 2,058	Re: Cylinder honing? Buy a flex hone works well easy to use. Pay attention to cylinder cleaning afterwards as that is where the job can go south on you real easy. No solvent ,gasoline,diesel fuel,to be used ever.That is a recipe for disaster. R

05-30-2016, 10:08 PM	#7
Brian Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Masterton, New Zealand Posts: 3,828	Re: Cylinder honing? If it were me, I'd pull the crank. Hone the Bare block. Easier to get everything clean that way. __________________ Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit!

05-30-2016, 10:19 PM	#8
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Cylinder honing? >>>engine with less than 400 miles on it.>>> What does this mean? Was it rebuilt less than 400 miles ago? If so, it should've been honed and re-ringed then. The low compression was probably due to not being properly broken in yet. Jack E/NJ

05-30-2016, 10:29 PM	#9
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,567	Re: Cylinder honing? i am no expert, but when i hone i use a hospital type iv bottle that is dribbling diesel fuel while honing. that is very fine grit that then must be washed off the bores with carb cleaner or starting fluid spray untill a paper towel comes out clean white. messy operation that will be hard to keep out of the bearings. crank out would be best as you are not far from that already. you must think up some way to seal up the mains, maybe silicone?

05-31-2016, 12:30 AM	#10
Binx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Gloucester VA Posts: 1,042	Re: Cylinder honing? Turn the block upside down on the stand and sit on a stool then have at it. Try to get a 35 degree angle on the crosshatch. Clean clean like Ronnie said after you're done. That means water, laundry detergent and a toilet brush until you can wipe the bore with a lint-free paper towel and it comes out clean. Lonnie

05-31-2016, 02:05 AM	#11
40 Deluxe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: now Kuna, Idaho Posts: 3,778	Re: Cylinder honing? Did you do a leakdown test to determine where the 'lost' compression was going? If it was due to the rings, there would have been copious amounts of blow-by out the crankcase vent. If valves, noticeable hissing out the tailpipe or intake manifold. Just what were the symptoms and compression readings?

05-31-2016, 03:27 AM	#12
topfuel724 Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 70	Re: Cylinder honing? When we were honing race blocks between rounds with a flex hone we would get some PVC pipe the size of the rods journals and put them on the crank to keep the grit from getting on the journals, then clean cylinders well with brake clean and blue towels.

05-31-2016, 04:54 AM	#13
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: Cylinder honing? I guess it is possible to seal off the crankcase and do the honing but I don't see any advantage to doing that if the engine is not in a car. Cleaning the block after honing is a important job. I would use a brush or ball hone because the cyl bores are probably not round and straight after being run and likely will not get 100% coverage unless an excess of stock is removed with a more rigid hone. Stroking up and down with the hone has to be coordinated with the RPM of the drive motor. It is usually pretty quick even with a 500 RPM driver.

05-31-2016, 06:45 AM	#14
Frank Miller Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn, MA Posts: 2,106	Re: Cylinder honing? Like someone else said, low compression at 400 miles makes me ask more questions than honing will fix. Are the walls even glazed? I've pulled apart motors with many more miles and can still see the honing marks. I think you need to do a bit more investigating. __________________ “The technique of infamy is to start two lies at once and get people arguing heatedly over which is true.” ~ Ezra Pound

05-31-2016, 09:48 AM	#15
Ronnie Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Canada Where it snows Posts: 2,058	Re: Cylinder honing? Another question that should be asked.What work was done to the engine 400 clicks ago that has produced the symptoms described,and who performed the work? You have also received some poor info on what to use as a lube during the honing operation.With careful planning it is possible to do in your situation just not the most desirable. JWL states some good info.Just sayin. R

05-31-2016, 11:01 AM	#16
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,921	Re: Cylinder honing? For some reason, I am remembering the days when baking soda was added through the spark plug hole and the engine run to "break the glaze." Is that a bad idea and an old wive's tale?

05-31-2016, 11:23 AM	#18
36tudordeluxe Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,260	Re: Cylinder honing? The cylinders aren't glazed and I can see honing cross hatch pattern just as it came from the machine shop. But what I do see is very light "scuff" marks 90° from the wrist pins on both sides of the pistons with corresponding marks on the cylinder walls; this is on all pistons and cylinders. Could the bores from the machine shop been too large for the pistons and the pistons are wobbling or slapping the sides of the cylinders. Never did a leak down test, but squirting oil in the cylinders did bring the compression up slightly. Compression ranged from 65-90 lbs. on all cylinders. There were no symptoms, no blow by or smoking out the exhaust, just low compression readings. I did make the mistake of running the engine in the chassis while completing the rest of the restoration and didn't follow recommended startup procedures as suggested by JWL and others. I was totally ignorant at the time of break in protocol. Going to digest all of this before proceeding any further. Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

05-31-2016, 12:16 PM	#19
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Cylinder honing? Hope your compression gauge was accurate. 8^) If it were mine, I'd probably replace what needs replacing from the teardown, button it back up, make sure it runs like it did before, throw it back in the car and run it for a few thousand miles. Then I'd report back on the barn with the results. Jack E/NJ

05-31-2016, 05:07 PM	#20
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Cylinder honing? I'd want to know what the piston to cylinder clearances are. Different types of piston require different clearance specs ie forged require more & cast require less. Wrong specs will lead to problems. You will need to know this stuff even before you go to honing. If it's way loose, all the honing in the world won't make it better.