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01-08-2016, 12:31 PM | #1 |
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Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Hello! I recently picked up a great collection of vintage flathead stuff, including a full house 3/8 by 3/8 flathead with a 404A cam, radius lifters, etc. The works.
Also in the deal was an extra "special" custom ground cam that was done especially for the previous owner. The previous owner has passed away, so this information is coming from his son who sold me the parts. His son said that his father knew Ed Iskenderian and Ed did this special grind for him to match the Harley Davidson profile. He told me that it should make the flathead sound like a 4 harleys running at the same time! Going off the markings scribed between the lobes on the cam, I'm trying to figure out if anyone has any info or heard anything about this type of cam. Written on the cam is Z98L (or maybe Z981) 12436 ISKYc 011 (or maybe QN) 404A Pictures below.
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01-08-2016, 01:31 PM | #2 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Can't help you with the cam, but that set of new lifters for the 404A are worth quite a bit.
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01-08-2016, 03:10 PM | #3 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
That is a wicked looking "toe" on those can lobes, looks like the lifters going to jump from one edge to the other.
Maybe some of the cam grinders on here can ID that one. |
01-08-2016, 05:02 PM | #4 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I think Harley gets its unique sound more from the cyl bank angle and single crank pin than from the cam...just send it to me and ill evaluate it for you ....Seriously tho I was told that was designed for circle track racing...Not much streetablity
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01-08-2016, 05:06 PM | #5 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
That to me looks like a lot of lift and very little duration! High ramp speed!
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01-08-2016, 05:11 PM | #6 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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01-08-2016, 05:13 PM | #7 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
In order to get the cam, I had to buy a few other things....
inside the engine
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01-08-2016, 05:25 PM | #8 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Now, that's a beautiful sight. Reminds me of my yout
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01-08-2016, 05:25 PM | #9 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Wow .
Thats some real nice stuff you got there ! |
01-08-2016, 06:07 PM | #10 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Got stuck will all of that just for a cam! Musta really wanted that cam.
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01-08-2016, 06:11 PM | #11 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
The Harley cam was a roller profile and used roller diameters of approximately .900 give or take.
The radius on the 404 lifter is 2.00. The cam profiles are not similar. |
01-08-2016, 07:19 PM | #12 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
As noted, you have an Isky 404-A radius cam . . . probably one of the best cams that Isky ever made. The engine valley that you show - also has an Isky 404-A in it. Looks like you bought a great collection of parts - good for you.
As Pete noted - there is nothing similar in this cam to a Harley Davidson flathead cam/profile . . . completely different designs (not only in the lifter style, but the pattern, lobe centers - everything). If you want to get into the specifics of what you have - drop me a PM. B&S |
01-08-2016, 07:36 PM | #13 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I see 2 pins in each lifter bore. Is that because that engine uses roller lifters?
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01-08-2016, 07:46 PM | #14 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Yep, keeps em from rotating(I think it's one pin, bent like a u).
Is that an Italmeccanica blower? |
01-08-2016, 07:51 PM | #15 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Radius lifters. The key keeps them from turning.
Here is a pic of a standard 404 lifter and of a drilled ones for lightening. Some have buttons on top, some do not. |
01-08-2016, 11:54 PM | #16 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I have a technical question regarding the blown flathead: The fuel system is setup with 6 - 97's which works out to be 900 CFM at WOT. Is it possible for a flathead to take advantage of that fuel charge? By comparison I've a supercharged 392 hemi with a 750 CFM Holley 4150 that dynoed 535 HP at 5200 RPM. It seems like there is too much carburetion on that engine for its displacement. What am I missing?
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01-09-2016, 12:37 AM | #17 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Yea, but it looks really bitchn!
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01-09-2016, 01:16 AM | #18 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Expavr - the blower came with that Weiand 471 6x2 bolted on top. When these Italmeccanica superchargers were sold for flatheads in 1949-1950, they were rated for 4500 Cc's, or 274 cu/in. They had mounts for 2 Stromberg 97s.
The engine is a 3/8 by 3/8 296 engine, huge ports and actually had the Evans 4x2 originally on it and was intended to run nitro. It's never been fired. A Cfm calculator says about 430 Cfm should be plenty for a 296 at 100% volumetric efficiency. That's around 3 Stromberg 97 carbs. (150 Cfm each) I wanted to see the blower on the engine. The blower won't have that many carbs on it when I put it to use. Sure looks wild doesn't it?
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01-09-2016, 01:50 AM | #19 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
"Sure looks wild doesn't it?" That it does....... Congratulations on your score..!!! What is the CR of the Edelbrock heads?
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01-09-2016, 04:09 AM | #20 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Get a hold of Ron Iskenderian and se what they say about that particular cam as to the special grind.
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01-09-2016, 08:26 AM | #21 | |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Quote:
They don't fire one after another but they are not 360 degrees apart. As said earlier the single pin will not allow this as when one piston is at the top on compression the other is almost at the top on exhaust.
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01-09-2016, 08:32 AM | #22 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I would roll that whole engine stand complete with the flathead, blower, and carbs, into my living room, just to look at it every day.
OOPS, never mind, I forgot I am married. You did good Jason. |
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01-09-2016, 01:10 PM | #23 | |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Quote:
Thanks for the clarification. You are right. It's something like 315 degrees apart causing that pop-pop sound. Must have had a brain hiccup. Tim |
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01-09-2016, 10:30 PM | #24 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Harley tried to get a patent on that not too long ago.
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01-13-2016, 01:45 AM | #25 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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01-13-2016, 05:37 PM | #26 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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Is that four boxes of tipped radius lifters? I see the slots in the front three packs? Question for Pete here, those lifters the "tipped" one's, you've stated in earlier posts that welding on the lifters is a big no no. And that the needed length should be added to the valve stem. I've seen in old books and magazines pics of these lifters, with that added on pad on the top. Were these pads welded on? Or some other process? Did these lifters have issues? Look forward to you thoughts on this. Thanks, Martin. Sorry for hijack, but I feel relevant. |
01-13-2016, 05:59 PM | #27 | |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Quote:
Overall they worked good. I did see a few that showed sagging on the top due to loss of heat treat during soldering process.. I wouldn't be afraid to run lifters with buttons. We have much better springs now. |
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01-14-2016, 02:30 AM | #28 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Ah! Silver soulder, makes sence.
What were the pads made of? Thanks for reply, Martin. |
01-14-2016, 10:23 PM | #29 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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01-15-2016, 08:45 AM | #30 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Thanks Pete,
Martin. |
01-03-2017, 02:23 PM | #31 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Ed Iskendarians 404A Constant Acceleration Camshaft is actually a copy of a #2 Offy Grind which is actually a copy of a Miller Grind.
If you get a chance ask Ed himself and he will tell you the story like he told me.
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01-03-2017, 02:25 PM | #32 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I run the 404A in my Dragster. I made the Radius Lifters from an old set of Hollow Johnson Lifters.
I actually show them and the Entire engine build up in the Video "Fullrace Flathead".
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01-03-2017, 04:30 PM | #33 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Very good cam , need to watch spring pressure .The duel springs can give up #125 pressure ,hard on cam ware.
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01-03-2017, 05:16 PM | #34 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Finally! A flathead that may actually need zinc additive!!
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01-03-2017, 10:51 PM | #35 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I believe Isky's 404 grinds are an adaptation of Ed Winfield's number 4 profile for Offenhauser 4-cylinder engines. Offenhauser engines used radius lifters.
Potvin called his version "Eliminator", and uses flat lifters. Last edited by Flatout; 01-03-2017 at 11:08 PM. |
01-03-2017, 11:47 PM | #36 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Hi all; I see a Power Master starter there. They engage front to back, the opposite of a Ford stocker. So the ring gear bevel is for the stock type stater. Does the ring gear need to be flipped or rebeveled for the Power Master type?? Newc
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01-04-2017, 06:03 AM | #37 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Hi Jason , i built a 304 ci with a 404-a cam flathead and after 20k miles its still running!
Best cam i ever used . Better than a potvin 425 eliminator. I can compare as i built another 304 ci With an eliminator cam . Do you sell your spare radius lifters ? I could use them If so , drop me an pm Michael |
01-13-2017, 04:48 PM | #38 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Just a quick FYI Isky made the Radius Lifters from Original Ford Lifters.
There is enough material on Originals to do it. Be careful of lifters that may have been reground on their bottoms before making a new set of Radius Lifters. I made mine from an old set of Johnson Adjustable's to have the ease of lash adjustment.
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01-13-2017, 04:54 PM | #39 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Pete sometimes does sets of radius lifters for the 404-A . . . just ping him if you need a set.
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03-22-2017, 12:24 PM | #40 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
My boss has a flathead they just torn down and it has a set of lifters just like in this picture. He wants to know where a person could get a set of the pins/retainers for the lifters as well as other valve train parts.
Also on the cam it has Iskandarian Rack then 404 A. On the shaft there is a CWC but nothing else - where could I get information about the cam etc. Thank you |
03-22-2017, 01:48 PM | #41 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
The flatheads and sportsters were the only Harleys to use separate cams till the twin cam came out so that must be the pattern they used on that. Nearly all HDs use roller tappets. That type cam would create a lot of side pressure on the tappet no matter what type it is. A person likely would end up sleeving the tappet bores after running that cam for a while.
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03-22-2017, 01:51 PM | #42 | |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
You can still get the clips from Isky (I think). Call them: (310) 217-9232
http://www.iskycams.com/contact-us.html There is a special tool to install them that I don't think you can get from isky anymore, but if your block is already drilled for the keepers, you don't need the special tool. You just hold the "staples" in there and bend the ends over. Isky 404A was considered a full race cam. Usually used in dragsters. Some people say not streetable. Others have told me I'll be fine if I don't have too much spring pressure pushing on the lifters. Quote:
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03-23-2017, 12:07 PM | #43 | |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Thanks Jason.
I did call ISKY yesterday and was told to talk to Ron. This was 1960's stuff and the tech didn't know if they had any of that stuff anymore. He said I needed to talk to Ron Inskandarian so that is the next step. Quote:
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03-23-2017, 03:08 PM | #44 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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03-23-2017, 03:31 PM | #45 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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03-23-2017, 05:28 PM | #46 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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03-23-2017, 08:45 PM | #47 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I have 2 of these cams an 8BA with lifters brand new , A real nice 59AB cam with a set of well used lifters from another404, also have a 404JR thats real nice for a v8/60 & well used 60 lifters from a different cam all in my cam "collection".
I to need the pins & were just going to make some as I have 2 new ones to measure what size wire. I also have the tools brand new that a friend made me copying them from a friends, they are as nice as originals or even better. I would love a copy of those original instructions! Have Flatty Fun!! Cheers Tony |
03-24-2017, 10:22 AM | #48 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
T one time the lifter bores were broached with a slot, and the lifters had a pin that road in the slot to prevent rotation. I had one of the blocks, but it used the present staples. Interesting stories about the value of this cam. I ran one at Danbury, however, it was damaged when one of the lifters failed. This was an owner supplied engine and I replaced the cam with the 400jr. Over the years several engine builders tried this cam, but the performance, didn't justify the cost.
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03-24-2017, 10:52 AM | #49 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I would tend to agree Ron. I don't know that I would build this engine myself due to cost.
I acquired this engine already built this way from a man who recreated his engine that won him a 1958 World Series of Drag Racing record of 138 mph 10:28 for flathead roadsters. He built the engine using some of the same parts from that original engine, but passed away before firing the engine. I hope to run the engine in my car and continue to tell his story.
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03-24-2017, 11:44 AM | #50 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Amazing. Good job on keeping his legacy going.
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03-24-2017, 03:53 PM | #51 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I agree with you here, I have only one suggestion, don't use the compound springs.
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03-24-2017, 04:29 PM | #52 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I've heard a few people say ditch the compound springs. I know that Pete said to go with about 80 lbs on the seat.
I thought I read that these compound springs can be over 100 lbs. However, the paperwork that came with the springs says they should be around 70 lbs on the seat.
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03-24-2017, 04:52 PM | #53 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I completely agree that I want the least amount of spring pressure possible on these lifters and cam because I'll just be driving this engine, not racing it.
I also do have the Italmeccanica blower for this engine so I also don't want to float my valves. I'll have to check the springs for sure.
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03-25-2017, 12:01 AM | #54 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Hi if you are still grinding i have a 8cm cam what can you do with that?? 1007b or potvin 3/8 its going in a 49 f100 .060 merc w. 350 holley 2 bbl... suggestions?? ive noticed the 8cm cam does pull prety good.... Rick
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03-25-2017, 07:34 AM | #55 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Not sure who this post is too . . . maybe Pete1? If so, contact Pete - you'll see him posting on this thread up above. I would recommend the 1007B - the 3/8 isn't needed for a smaller displacement engine like yours. You'll like the 1007B - great grind.
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03-25-2017, 07:36 AM | #56 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
The double springs actually don't gain you anything - and they're a pain in the butt to install. Buy the single Isky 185G springs and install them with about 75 - 80 lbs on the seat. If you're not going to rev it high (like race it) and keep the RPM below 5000, you can probably get away with 70 lbs. That blower won't make a lot of boost anyway - probably 6 - 8 lbs at best.
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03-25-2017, 07:38 AM | #57 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Also, the blower should be gone through, may need new bearings, probably needs seals for sure, etc.. You should contact Ron SanGiovanni (Ronnie Roadster) - he is on this site, he might be able to do it for you (if he has time - as he's really busy building a Bonneville car at the moment).
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03-25-2017, 09:28 AM | #58 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
B&S Has the right anser here. For street, keep the revs below 5k and your golden. Those Scot blowers might need ritior seals, and that gets expensive.
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03-25-2017, 10:36 AM | #59 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
When the group says the double springs are a pain in the butt to install, I think "mine are already installed. It's going to be a pain in the butt to uninstall them. haha
I will most likely fire it just like it is on the test stand with the HC magneto and Evans 4x2 to make the dream of what he was building but never got to see happen. Then I can pull the heads and do the 185G spring swap and maybe put some rarer heads on it before it goes in the 34 Three window. I've already purchased all the bearings, seals, new exact reproduction rear grease caps and even metric gears for inside if needed. Had to source most of it from eirope as this is metric. Different than the new H&H stuff. I already have all the parts. I'll be sure to go through it first.
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03-25-2017, 12:06 PM | #60 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
On a side note: do those blowers have a oil feed from motor? Or do they have a grease jerk? How do they stay lubed up? Sorry just want to learn something new today. As gene says everyday is a school day.
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03-25-2017, 12:07 PM | #61 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Oops I guess I should of looked harder at the pictures. I see a jerk.
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03-25-2017, 12:13 PM | #62 |
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
The front snout area is full of oil with a seal on the nose where the pulley is and inside on the front of the two shafts before getting into the rotor area. The back originally had seals on the two shafts, shins and greased bearings but you can put sealed bearings in them now, and keep the old look. I read one article that someone removed the grease zero side of the sealed bearings so you could grease them but the grease not go out the other side.
The gears on the rotor shafts are drilled and pinned. You have to time the rotors or they will interfere with each other.
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04-17-2024, 04:28 AM | #63 |
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Resurrecting this thread in the hope of a bit more info. I’m in England but recently acquired an Isky 404a cam, new old stock together with the relevant double springs, lifters, staples ect. ( no jig but can make that). My engine is a French block running 4 1/4 crank, 3 3/8 pistons and currently a 400 jr cam. All running in a belly tank that only gets to play on Pendine sands and will do a bit of drags. It’s full race.
My question if any one can help is are the double springs worth using, what spring pressure is best, and advice on grinding each tip on the lifters and what to set it at cold? If I were to have my Johnson adjustable lifters ground would they need re hardening? Thanks in advance guys, Brett. |
04-17-2024, 07:33 AM | #64 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,062
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
I've checked the double springs against the Isky 185-G springs and the 185-G springs are actually better. I have no idea as to why Ed created the dual-spring package . . . other than to claim it was better and as part of the overall marketing of the 404-A. You should be fine with about 80 lbs on the seat - which is easy to obtain with the 185-G springs. I'm running 185-G springs on my flathead roller cam with 100 lbs on the seat (and heavy roller lifters) - have had the engine over 6200 RPM and never floated a valve . . . and my intakes are 1.72". For a full-on race engine, you might consider light titanium valves anyway (that is what I'd do).
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04-17-2024, 10:15 AM | #65 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Holmen,Wisconsin
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Quote:
I'm hoping to see an answer on this too as I have the same (uninstalled ) starter. Thanks.
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04-17-2024, 01:31 PM | #66 | |
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,407
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
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Quote:
You will have to run the Isky radius lifters with the 404A cam. You NEVER grind the lifter to adjust the clearance. If you do not have a valve stem grinding attachment on your valve grinder, They can be machined very easily in a lathe. Listen to Bored & Stroked on the spring info. |
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04-17-2024, 09:14 PM | #67 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Kansas
Posts: 920
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Quote:
No, the PM starter gear has a bevel that lets it work with the ring gear as-is. Now back to camshaft discussion.....
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Yesterday, 01:20 AM | #68 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 2
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Re: Isky 404A cam - Harley Davidson grind?
Thanks for the input and advice so far guys.
Appreciate it. |
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