Art vs. History

[Vic Piano]

Art appreciation, and interpretation, is an acquired taste. There will always be those who embrace "art" and those who reject it in whole, or in part, and that's fine. What isn't fine (in my opinion) is to cast aspersions upon creative individuals, whatever the reason. Self expression, through the creative process, whatever the medium, should never be repressed. It is imperative to keep an open mind in order to expand ones knowledge of, and appreciation for, art in all its forms. I'm just sayin'

[Tinker]

I don't think i would compare that particular truck to fine art, such as El Greco, Henry Moore, Andrew Wyeth, etc... not even Picasso... I'd say it falls more into of the arts and crafts category, like a macaroni-noodle Abe Lincoln.

[Vic Piano]

Tinker, in theory I agree with you but, in practice, even mediocre attempts are still art. What really defines fine art, and sets it apart from run of the mill art? Art, like everything else, comes in varying degrees. There's a joke in my industry that goes like this; Why do they call television a medium...? Because it isn't rare or well done..., however, it is still considered and art form.To that end, I'm more of an impressionist fan, but prefer the works of post Impressionist like Van Gogh over Monet, Renoir, Cezanne, Degas, etc. Where automotive art is concerned, I'm a big fan of E.T. Gregory, Harley Earl, Raymond Loewy, George Barris, Ayala, Bill Hines and the Alexander Brothers to name a few. They all took different approaches to an art form in varying degrees, from Fine art to... It's all good, even if its bad...

[Tinker]

Fine Art goes through a process of evolution. It has to happen, even bad art. But then you only have few top dogs of that style and then you move on. Yes someone could paint a very nice soup can, like Warhol, tomorrow. But it will most likely never be nearly as coveted, collected, or worth the same as Andy's, because he was first.

I guess Vic... Art is a word that gets generalized and thrown around a lot. Tv is a medium that is used primarily for commercial purposes. Same as print. I've been a motion designer and animator for national tv shows and commercials for 25yrs. I also paint "fine art". :]

Eye of the beholder.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Tinker, in theory I agree with you but, in practice, even mediocre attempts are still art. What really defines fine art, and sets it apart from run of the mill art? Art, like everything else, comes in varying degrees. There's a joke in my industry that goes like this; Why do they call television a medium...? Because it isn't rare or well done..., however, it is still considered and art form.To that end, I'm more of an impressionist fan, but prefer the works of post Impressionist like Van Gogh over Monet, Renoir, Cezanne, Degas, etc. Where automotive art is concerned, I'm a big fan of E.T. Gregory, Harley Earl, Raymond Loewy, George Barris, Ayala, Bill Hines and the Alexander Brothers to name a few. They all took different approaches to an art form in varying degrees, from Fine art to... It's all good, even if its bad...

Well said. There is a difference between art and art that a person doesn't like.

Important to understand that just because you don't like a piece of work, doesn't mean it's not art.

When any art is banned or censored, the fall of a free society is not far behind it. Don't believe it? Study history.

[Tinker]

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Hitler was an art student and collected the great masters... he did like book burnings though. :]

[TonyM]

I have never seen one of those ratrods actually in motion driving on a street. How do they get from point A to point B without scraping the whole underside of the car off? They have absolutely no clearance. They don't look at all comfortable to drive. What is the story on the low clearance?

[Vic Piano]

What it always comes down to is, what we both stated, "eye of the beholder". Weather something is used primarily for commercial use, should not be a criteria in defining it as art. Motion Pictures are defined as an art form as are movie posters and in some cases, print advertising, all done for commercial use, Toulouse Lautrec comes to mind. I've been a Television Producer/Director (some would call that collaborative art), for over 40 years however, I hung up my palette, brushes and easel years ago. Glad you still get to enjoy that part of the creative process.

[Fe26]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Hitler was an art student and collected the great masters... he did like book burnings though. :]

The Nazis didn't like modern art ie: non pictorial, they called it degenerate and burned it.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Hitler was an art student and collected the great masters... he did like book burnings though. :]

True that Hitler "collected" art for his own personal enjoyment, but his overall plan was even more grand.

I know that this may be stating the obvious, but while ripping through Europe, his men were instructed to steal anything that looked valuable.

His plan was for Germany to win the war and became the greatest nation on earth. Even that sick bastard Hilter realized that all great civlizations need museums that display great master works of art.

From what I've read, he also took great pleasure when his armies stole art from Jewish collectors since he felt they didn't deserve to have possession of these great works. In fact, Hitler and Goering had a little competition on who could amass the most pieces of art for their own collections.

The movie Monument Men was not too far of the mark. There are a lot of great books about this topic as well.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by TonyM

I have never seen one of those ratrods actually in motion driving on a street. How do they get from point A to point B without scraping the whole underside of the car off? They have absolutely no clearance. They don't look at all comfortable to drive. What is the story on the low clearance?

Here's a great video comparing two vehicular works of art side by side, a 2012 Lamorghini Aventador and a really low (to the ground) Model A rat rod to answer those questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rArpyMXT2ew

[Fe26]

Man, this thread is covering a lot of ground. Beginning with Prof’s attempt to integrate a Rat Rod into the Art paradigm using as a measure, the ‘art’ of Design, then, for good measure throwing in a Giacometti or two as if to say, these little stick figures are crudely done and then invite the question;
if it’s alright for Fine (or Highbrow) Art why isn’t it alright for Lowbrow art?

And therein lies the vexed question of what is art. Entire careers of educated and intelligent scholars have been devoted to this cause, and the debate still continues, albeit the same questions are asked and answered in never-ending marvels of novelty, artifice and sometimes scholarship.

I rather like an old Chinese proverb which divides art and the artist into three groups:

The third (lowest) rank of artist paints what he sees
The second rank of artist paints ideas
The first rank of artist is the collector who may buy one or the other or both

Design, for the most part being highly visual usually falls into the first Chinese category. As with any artistic endeavours there are exceptions and crossovers. The Rat rod question now becomes; is this an extension of automotive design, or such a departure in thinking about what an automobile is, that the Rat rod becomes Fine Art.

To use the Giacometti sculptures as example, in creating his stick like sculptures Giacometti asked; if sculpture usually depicts man as fully fleshed and realistic then can sculpture also depict man in a different way, are not my depictions also of man, is not this idea a valid one? For if you understand what is a man then you must accept that other views and ideas of what a man can be are also valid. Parallel to this question is; if this idea is accepted then by definition the idea of what sculpture is must also change. In opening up a new way of thinking he became an artist who made ideas and expressed them through the medium of sculpture.

So, has the Rat rod opened up an idea, a new way of thinking about what an automobile might be, or become? Is the Rat rod the embodiment of “Punk Music” in the car world? When the Punks, fed up with the status quo of music, branched out by inventing a new way to play and listen to their music they spoke for a new generation which needed to express their ideas by disrupting the prevailing idea that music must be melodious, keep time, and be all the things that music was supposed to be.

The Rat rod is as different to automotive design as Punk is to Mozart. If Mozart is the embodiment of classical music, and if classic automotive design is the embodiment of Design, then does that make Punk music and Rat rods lesser, or the embodiment of ideas for our time. The original Punk musicians are now regarded as seminal influencers on the music scene, and I wouldn’t mind speculating that the first Rat rods were built by visual artists in the Punk vein. All that remains to be decided is, is Punk music and the Rat rod high brow or low brow art?
And I wonder if they even care...

[Tinker]

I liked that movie monument men, just watched it on my trip back from canada yesterday. I'm still not calling that truck henry posted, art though. . Henry's car yes but not the truck.


Gary Campesi has some nice concept drawings of bobber trucks.
http://www.garycampesi.com/concept-drawings-2/

I just think the truck we are talking about lacks the craftsmanship that I would consider to be artful. It's not an original idea or thought, but a bad copy. Look at the chop across the cab top. It's not a thing of beauty.

I'm sure its fun truck maybe.

[Tinker]

I like lowbrow art. robert Williams is a master painter. Technical well done, conceptually surreal. Great stuff.

[jim1932]

First off...I have a restoration....

In my view a restoration is an engineering, mechanical exercise and the interest in looking at one is to either see how they were originally made, or to see the skill of the restorer.

A hotrod or ratrod is a creative interpretation of the automobile. The interest in large part is to see what was done different. How clever was the builder... how skilled. Like the earlier picture showed... holy crap that is just a welded on wrench.... that is to me the difference. Conservation vs free spirit. Both can be cool. both can be done by total idiots by people who don't get the idea.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Tinker

I like lowbrow art. robert Williams is a master painter. Technical well done, conceptually surreal. Great stuff.

Well, we are on common ground there. Love Robt. Williams' stuff!

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Fe26

Man, this thread is covering a lot of ground. Beginning with Prof’s attempt to integrate a Rat Rod into the Art paradigm using as a measure, the ‘art’ of Design, then, for good measure throwing in a Giacometti or two as if to say, these little stick figures are crudely done and then invite the question;
if it’s alright for Fine (or Highbrow) Art why isn’t it alright for Lowbrow art?

And therein lies the vexed question of what is art. Entire careers of educated and intelligent scholars have been devoted to this cause, and the debate still continues, albeit the same questions are asked and answered in never-ending marvels of novelty, artifice and sometimes scholarship.

I rather like an old Chinese proverb which divides art and the artist into three groups:

The third (lowest) rank of artist paints what he sees
The second rank of artist paints ideas
The first rank of artist is the collector who may buy one or the other or both

Design, for the most part being highly visual usually falls into the first Chinese category. As with any artistic endeavours there are exceptions and crossovers. The Rat rod question now becomes; is this an extension of automotive design, or such a departure in thinking about what an automobile is, that the Rat rod becomes Fine Art.

To use the Giacometti sculptures as example, in creating his stick like sculptures Giacometti asked; if sculpture usually depicts man as fully fleshed and realistic then can sculpture also depict man in a different way, are not my depictions also of man, is not this idea a valid one? For if you understand what is a man then you must accept that other views and ideas of what a man can be are also valid. Parallel to this question is; if this idea is accepted then by definition the idea of what sculpture is must also change. In opening up a new way of thinking he became an artist who made ideas and expressed them through the medium of sculpture.

So, has the Rat rod opened up an idea, a new way of thinking about what an automobile might be, or become? Is the Rat rod the embodiment of “Punk Music” in the car world? When the Punks, fed up with the status quo of music, branched out by inventing a new way to play and listen to their music they spoke for a new generation which needed to express their ideas by disrupting the prevailing idea that music must be melodious, keep time, and be all the things that music was supposed to be.

The Rat rod is as different to automotive design as Punk is to Mozart. If Mozart is the embodiment of classical music, and if classic automotive design is the embodiment of Design, then does that make Punk music and Rat rods lesser, or the embodiment of ideas for our time. The original Punk musicians are now regarded as seminal influencers on the music scene, and I wouldn’t mind speculating that the first Rat rods were built by visual artists in the Punk vein. All that remains to be decided is, is Punk music and the Rat rod high brow or low brow art?
And I wonder if they even care...

I don't want to split hairs about the term "punk", but a lot of early to mid-50's musicians could be considered "punk". Early Elvis is "punk" by definition. (He also had talent too)

I'm assuming you are meaning "Punk" as played by the Sex Pistols, early Damned and the Ramones as comparable to rat rods.

[Ross F-1]

A key difference between "art" and rat rods is that artists start (generally) with raw materials (blank canvas, paint, etc) commonly available, while the rat rod creator uses up something that is in limited supply. No matter the donor's condition, there is usually something that could be used productively to bring an old car or truck back to life.

[Tinker]

That's a interesting point.

[Vic Piano]

Hey Hoop, how have you been? Didn't see you at the last Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance, hope all is well. Vic