Model A in the mountains

[29RPU]

Thinking about taking the ol' Phaeton to the mountains soon (maybe spring, I'm not sure) but I was wondering how they do in the mountains. Will they accelerate in 3rd, or is climbing quite slow?? and how is the compression in third coming down a slope? Will they hold themselves back, or do they usually need a lot of brake pedal? Thanks.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Define "mountains" (degree of slope, elevation, etc.) and tell us what engine condition yours is in. For example, if the static compression is only around 45 lbs, they ain't much on holding themselves back but they do REALLY well with a H/C head, ....except on long 14° windy mountain grades.


In all seriousness, they do very well depending on condition and how much the engines are altered. A good rule of thumb that works very well when we drive Fords that were manufactured prior to the Model A is, "let the engine tell you how fast it wants to go up the hill, ...and go down the mountain in the same gear as what you went up the mountain in." In other words, take your time going up, --and then do the same going down the mountain and you will do just fine.

[Great Lakes Greg]

Just came back from a trip that had some 8% grades. Stock engine, 3.78 gear. Lugging up the hills seemed extemely hard on the engine, while second gear returned a nice no-stress pull. Third was not very effective for braking, and good brakes were essential. Second gear holds the car back better on the downgrades, but occasional brake stabs were neccesary to keep the engine internals from looking for daylight. It can really getting racing downhill. A motometer in place of your quail may also be a bennefit. You'll have a great time, I'm sure.

[newshirt]

I live at 7,600' in the Rocky Mountains. There are "little hills" everywhere, and not much oxygen.

Prior to installing a high compression head, I was constantly gearing down to 2nd for climbing and riding the brakes down hills. Now I rarely do either. I'm really happy with the change. But still, I lose speed very quickly on hills and must listen to the engine to know how fast it can go. I cruise at 45 mph, but go up long hills at 25 with full retard.

I'd say the old A does pretty good at this altitude! Club members have even taken A's to the top of Pikes Peak: 14,110' elevation.

I've never driven an A at sea level. But I'd say you'll probably have no trouble with a HC head anywhere in the U.S.

[john in illinois]

I was wondering if my Tudor would climb the 6,300ft pass at Helena. I was surprised how well she climbed. I could maintain 40-45 in 3rd. If it dropped below 40mph I felt it was lugging and downshifted to 2cnd.Only had to do that once for a short time.

The car has 3.78 gears,5.3 head,and Stipe 330 cam.Going down was no problem if you have good brakes to start with.

I have taken several long difficult trips in my A. Every one has shown me what a good car the Model A really was and is and what fun you can have driving it.

I would say get your car in good mechanical shape and try the mountains

John

[Tom Endy]

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One of the great advantages of a Ryan or Mitchell overdrive is they are very affective when driving in the mountains. You have six speeds forward. Second gear overdrive is very handy when climbing a grade. Same for coming down with engine braking.

Best to stay off the brakes as much as possible when coming down a grade or they will overheat and you won't have any.

Tom Endy

[larrys40]

A couple of years ago when out at the Breckenridge Colorado meet I decided to drive my '30 Tudor up Pikes Peak on the way home. The car did great on the trip up and down. You can adjust your GAV ( fuel/air mixture/choke rod) and lean it out to where it runs best ( you should be doing this all the time anyway).

I run a stock babbitt engine w/snyder H/C head. It ran great up Pikes Peak... although... the worst part was half way up the fog and mist set in and you couldn't see 20 feet in front of you. A little tense and it certainly dampended the fact of see the scenery. My lady friend was freeking out and I had my 15 yr old daughter watching out for cars coming up behind us. I took a photo at the summit sign to say I made it.

An awesome experience and accomplishment!

I agree w/Brett. Takje it easy.. let your engine guide you on comfort zone/shifting/speed, and RPM's. When we got to the half way summit house oming back down the park ranger used his infared to check my brakes,,, and it read cool. I said you could touch them if you want to make sure. He did and couldn't believe they weren't hot. Guess the old Model A's are much better mountain climbers than the modern stuff, and it's fun. Make sure your radiator is good, car tunes well and take a couple of gallons of water just in case. I didn't use any on that trip.

Larry S

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

They climb hills like an old goat!! Just don't over advance the spark when pulling hard at lower speeds, or it will lead to overheating. 'Kinda match the advance to the speed. Like 1/2 speed = 1/2 spark advance.

[dynaflash_8]

My coupe did really well when we took it up to pick huckelberrys. all gravel road with some washout. 18% grade in one spot. First gear and she motored right up it. Even took a part of the jeep trail back ( nothing major but some mud and ruts) lots of fun! On the way down, id close the throttle all the way and cut the fuel to the motor. Great little engine brake. Tap the throttle lever a dab and she would come back up to an idle.

[Michael in Sedona]

I live at 4500 feet of altitude, and have had my Model A as high as 7000 feet (Flagstaff) with no problems. In all fairness, the car does have a 5.9 head, and that really helps when we pull long hills. I can maintain 35 to 40 mph in 3rd gear on the upgrades, and can drive 50 to 55 on rolling countryside at 7000 feet. The engine will brake pretty well coming back downhill. Just don't let the speed build up too high!

[TerryH]

I will second what Tom Endy said......our club took a tour to Yosemite a few years ago, and we all got a taste of climbing that twisty, climbing road out of the valley. My 1930 Town Sedan has a Snyder HC head, cast iron brakes, and a Mitchell OD. We took another couple with us on the tour of Yosemite Valley, and had no trouble climbing out. On some slower, uphill turns I had to go down to 2nd OD, but the car pulled very well and I was able to shift to 3rd. I would be concerned about a car with the old steel brake drums, unless they are hardly worn, and a good radiator is a must. But the torque of the Model A and sensible driving habits work very well!

[buyitsmart]

With respect to a Mitchell overdrive...how does that work in the real world?
How do you use it driving around town? Do you shift from normal first gear into the Mitchell OD and then get out of the OD to go into normal second gear and then back into the OD, etc.? In other words, do you use all 6 forward gears all the time or do you find yourself only engaging the OD after you reach high gear?

Isn't it a second stick shift? Does that mean you must depress the clutch to shift the OD?

I'm sure my questions give me away as a complete novice. So be it.

[Tom Endy]

Most of the time around town I leave it out of overdrive and just use the three standard gears. If I go onto a road where I can travel above 45 I shift into high gear overdrive. Certainly on a freeway or interstate I travel in high gear overdrive if the terain is level and the wind is not blowing at me. Climbing a steep grade I shift into second gear overdrive if I am losing it in high gear. My Ryan is a 23% and the differential gears are 378. I believe the Mitchells are 26%. In either case you want to be doing above 45 to use the overdrive in high gear.

I don't think anyone runs through the six gears when driving.

The Borg Warner overdrives are mostly 33% and they tend to lug the engine unless you have a 411 differenhtial. You certainly do not want to be in overdrive coming down a grade with a Borg Warner as they have an over run clutch and you will not have engine braking.

Tom Endy

[marc hildebrant]

When I lived in Longmont, Colorado, I would drive from Longmont (5000 ft) up to Ward (10,000 ft).

Couple of things.....around 8000 ft, the performance really dropped. Also, I had about 1/4 full in the gas tank, and I had "fuel problems" on a steep grade.

The car was stock all around.

Used transmission braking on the way down.

Marc

[29RPU]

Thank you guys for the responses. I have to go thru the brakes, then I think I'll just try it without the family first. I almost want to try it now, but the brakes aren't the greatest. We have a family cabin at about 6500 ft in the mountains near hume lake in CA and I thought it would make a fun trip. The responses were as I expected. I thought if I heard 3rd gear would really hold a car back I might try it, but I'll get my brakes finished first and be safe. Thanks again.

[40 Deluxe]

newshirt (post #4), are you mad at your car? Why else would you run it at full retard?? At 7,600 ft, you need significantly more advance for a given speed and load than at sea level (combustion is slower because the air is thinner so you need to 'start the fire earlier'). Does your exhaust manifold look like it's been overheated? You can bet it's glowing red hot when run at full retard. Give it some advance!

[Christoph]

Got a stock engine and car?

Altitude (6500) is no problem.

No problem to go uphill in 2nd till about 17% (More degrees in first...)
Watch temps if radiator is old

Want to go downhill (more than 10%): GET YOUR BRAKES FIXED!
Low combustion of a Stock engine wont hold your car in any gear !

[Benson]

Cast iron brake drums and properly rebuilt brakes will go a long way to reduce Brake fade. The real danger is overheated brakes and the resulting brake fade on steep sections.

The stock steel drums, especially if they have been turned down too many times, are much too thin to dissipate enough heat in these situations. The original drums that Ford used and sold were never meant to be machined even once as stated in the Service Bulletins. Drums were meant to be replaced.

I would use cast iron drums and put some miles on a new brake job in the "flatlands" to break-in the shoes and drums after a fresh install.

Behind the house there is a 3/4 mile to 1 mile section of dirt road that goes from 7100 feet to 8200 with 7 or 8 "switch backs". This is a section where I start at the top in 2nd gear to use "engine braking" to save the brakes.

Starting in 3rd would overheat and burn up the brakes before I got to the bottom, if I ever made it without going off the edge of the road.

If you find yourself on a steep hill and in 3rd gear I suggest that you use the brakes to slow down and get into 2nd gear sooner rather than later ... before the brakes get too hot!

Even with good brakes and cast-iron drums I would never go down this "hill" in 3rd gear!

In the last 45 years 5 or 6 cars have gone off the edge and none were Model As!!

Downshifting in the middle of a steep downhill with a Model A non-synchronous transmission can be more difficult that you would think ... always better to start in 2nd at the top and let the "road ragers" behind you in their modern cars fume their little heads off.

It is a good idea to "scout the trip" before adding the addition weight to the car so you know where to take it easy!

In the 60's I drove the Model A 40,000 miles with the "Large B police head" on the back roads and jeep trails from 5000 to 12,000 feet (even Mount Evans at 14,240 feet) and made it back safely.

If your idle speed is too high you will use the brakes more than otherwise.

You just have to know the limits of the car and take it easy.

Originally Posted by 29RPU

Thank you guys for the responses. I have to go thru the brakes, then I think I'll just try it without the family first. I almost want to try it now, but the brakes aren't the greatest. We have a family cabin at about 6500 ft in the mountains near hume lake in CA and I thought it would make a fun trip. The responses were as I expected. I thought if I heard 3rd gear would really hold a car back I might try it, but I'll get my brakes finished first and be safe. Thanks again.

[modelAsteve]

Don't forget that retarding your spark works great and really saves the brakes. If your ignition is set properly with the lever at full retard (all the way up) it works just fine- knd of like a Jake brake.

[John LaVoy]

We have driven over the continental divide a few times and agree with Tom Endy a Mitchell overdrive works well giving you the ability to use 2nd overdrive on steep hills. The Model A will climb most anything as long as you take your time. The descent is tough with the brakes on the A best to down shift and go easy coming down.

We have heard of some 10% grades that were long enough to cause the oil to not make it to the number one rod and cause a failure. All things to consider. But with a few cautions you can pretty much go anywhere in a Model A we have!