The Ford Barn

Ralph Moore · 10-01-2011, 10:16 PM

My coupe has the usual cracks on the reveal line, below the quarter window. This area is very thin and I'm afraid welding would be very difficult, at least for me. Is there another way to fix this, maybe epoxy, or fiberglass behind it? The interior would hide either of these fixes.
Thanks,

Ralph

ford1 · 10-01-2011, 11:08 PM

trouble with cracks is they flex and will grow, welding is the only permantely way to fix them. even then a small hole 1/8 inch or smaller needs to be drilled at each end of the crack to terminate it, use a wire welder and stich weld the crack closed then grind the weld smooth

29RPU · 10-02-2011, 02:58 AM

Yes, any non metal fix you perform will eventually crack again, and maybe sooner than later. That looks like some previous filler work to me. Is that silver colored paint? If you want a quick, non invasive fix, you could try rubbing a little body filler into the cracks, clean up excess, then touch up with a silver pen or touch up paint. I would only do this if you are just using your car as a driver and want to hide some blemishes. It is NOT the recommended way to do it.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-02-2011, 06:11 AM

This is one of those areas where IMHO you need to remove the damage and section a new piece in. This would involve fabricating and then metalshaping the section followed by hammer welding it in. I realize you live in a remote area where this may be difficult with available resources but that is the correct way in my book.

While I am not an advocate of this, my Father used to make repairs like this on fatigued Model A bodies by media-blasting both sides, drilling a very small hole at both end of the fracture, and then after placing duct tape over the exterior he would apply several layers of fiberglass & matting to the backside in an effort to strengthen the entire panel. Once the resin had cured, the duct tape was removed and he would bodywork on the exterior as normal. Again, I am not suggesting this as a proper method but just giving another option.

Ralph Moore · 10-02-2011, 11:56 AM

The body has been stripped and primed, what you see is some Zinc Chromate(green) and some guide coat(black/grey). There was some filler from previous repair. It is so thin there I feel like I'll be chasing holes with my wire feed.
I heard there were some really strong body epoxys out there nowadays, and thought they might do the job, maybe a body and paint man could chime in.
(I'm still painting with Enamel, and don't know alot about all the new stuff).
I did see a patch panel for sale on the HAMB that was shaped like the reveal, but it was straight and would do nothing for the crack as it comes around the rear corner.
And my experience with patch panels so far is, they are a nice place to start cutting , but none fit perfectly.

azmodela · 10-02-2011, 12:22 PM

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Brent, who posted above yours Ralph is a body and paint man. His advice is spot on for this type of repair. If you can't do as he described, get over your fear and pull out your welder! Drill holes at the end of the crack and weld the crack up. Take your time and you'll do fine.

rollingsculpture · 10-02-2011, 12:55 PM

you can weld it with the wire feed if you back it with a closely fitting piece of copper or brass sheet the copper acts as a heat sink and gives the wire something to land on instead of going through the hole , keep your wire stick out no more than 1/8 in and stay close using short 1 and a half -2 second bursts of weld basically forming a long series of tack welds also when you do form a bigger hole due to burn off of the thin spots dont sweat it just fill the hole by working the edge with short bursts keep in mind that your not trying to fill in all in one long pass just short tacks that are formed close to each other to create the weld . also remember to make a series of tacks spaced 3/4 in apart to start with, than fill in between - move from one side of the break to another to allow the heat to be distributed across the entire break in other words don' start at one spot and than try to work it continuously across you will get too much heat build up which will create more burn through so jump around from point to point until the whole crack is welded grind file and hammer as needed

Doug in NJ · 10-02-2011, 01:02 PM

My S/W body had similar stress cracks at the base of the windshield pillars. I followed some advice Brent gave me at Hershey a few years ago: I put some backing strips up against the cracks from behind before welding them. This is sort of the opposite of using a copper strip: the strips become part of the structure, reinforcing it. A potential problem with just welding is that after grinding the bead down, you may end up with a thin area that will be prone to cracking again.

Here is a bunch of photos of what I did: http://www.dougbraun.com/model_a_gal...=10&g2_page=27

Doug

ford1 · 10-02-2011, 01:04 PM

if the metal is that thin, i would get a metal scribe, one with a sharp point, and start probing the metal till you find where the rust and crack ends, and where solid metal is, then do as Bret says, cut out the bad spot to where the metal is solid, dont cut irregular pieces out, cut easy to make and form pieces, if the piece to be made is on a curve you might be able to gas weld it with out warping the metal around it, if not you will have to arc weld it stich style to keep the heat and warpage to a minimum, either way you will need to do as Brent said, hammer the weld to flatten it and to keep the grinding to a minimum that way the weld stays strong, it is very important to use the same gauge metal as the body for the patch, and a reminder you cant weld rust, dont cut out more metal than you need to, bigger patch panels mean more welding, work and more chance of warping the metal your trying to fix

ford1 · 10-02-2011, 01:09 PM

when an expert body and restoration man (BreNt) says some thing, listen closely to him , his advice will save you a lot of screw ups and hours of work

Ralph Moore · 10-02-2011, 08:25 PM

Sounds like I have some work to do. Thanks for all the advice.

Ralph

rollingsculpture · 10-02-2011, 08:38 PM

if you can get some one to come out to do this work there in alaska than give them some test pieces to work on and if your happy and they are confident than you have a match if not keep checking and you may find a willing contractor or friend you dont know you have yet.

callcoy · 10-02-2011, 11:09 PM

The auto manufacturers in an effort to build better and faster, for maybe 10 years have employed a 2 part epoxy like material to bond panels together. For a repair such as yours would require a backup/lap of steel approx. the same thickness of the body, going from memory 18 ga. This would have the conform to the inside of the area you are trying to repair. Both surfaces have to be clean and slightly rough to get this to adhere properly. This type of material is also used in the construction of aircraft, the 787 Dreamliner, Air Bus 380 and many others. There is a Tri-5 Chev with lower door panel patches running around here for almost 6 years without failure and I haven't seen any airplanes falling out of the sky lately. I will be installing patch panels on the lower doors of my Panel Delivery with this and will fill some of the rust lace behind the panels.

As Brent mentioned individuals have used fiberglass in the past, fiberglass and epoxy has come a long way since the late 1940's. The first so called fiberglass wasn't even glass fibers, it was burlap saturated with a new product called polyester resin. The glass fiber technology was in place by the early 50's, then came Kevlar and Carbonfiber. The latest epoxy bonding materials are super strong and can be worked with common tools such as files and sand paper. The best part is the there is no heat to distort the metal. I don't have any mfg's names that supply the OEM trade, but 3M makes a product for the body shop trade

Kurt in NJ · 10-02-2011, 11:52 PM

As callcoy says -prepare the inside, make a metal patch that fits close to the contours, glue it in with panel bonder ---you might want to prepare it and see if you can stop by with the car and have the glue applied -the glue,and applicater is some $$-you have to have a clamping system prepared---any fiberglass repair I would consider tempoary, this panel bonding system with a properly prepared backing will be permanent, and probably stronger than the original undamaged would be.

10-01-2011, 11:08 PM	#2
ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: oroville ca. Posts: 1,554	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? trouble with cracks is they flex and will grow, welding is the only permantely way to fix them. even then a small hole 1/8 inch or smaller needs to be drilled at each end of the crack to terminate it, use a wire welder and stich weld the crack closed then grind the weld smooth

10-02-2011, 02:58 AM	#3
29RPU Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Visalia, California Posts: 246	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? Yes, any non metal fix you perform will eventually crack again, and maybe sooner than later. That looks like some previous filler work to me. Is that silver colored paint? If you want a quick, non invasive fix, you could try rubbing a little body filler into the cracks, clean up excess, then touch up with a silver pen or touch up paint. I would only do this if you are just using your car as a driver and want to hide some blemishes. It is NOT the recommended way to do it.

10-02-2011, 06:11 AM	#4
BRENT in 10-uh-C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Eastern Tennessee Posts: 11,521	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? This is one of those areas where IMHO you need to remove the damage and section a new piece in. This would involve fabricating and then metalshaping the section followed by hammer welding it in. I realize you live in a remote area where this may be difficult with available resources but that is the correct way in my book. While I am not an advocate of this, my Father used to make repairs like this on fatigued Model A bodies by media-blasting both sides, drilling a very small hole at both end of the fracture, and then after placing duct tape over the exterior he would apply several layers of fiberglass & matting to the backside in an effort to strengthen the entire panel. Once the resin had cured, the duct tape was removed and he would bodywork on the exterior as normal. Again, I am not suggesting this as a proper method but just giving another option. __________________ . BRENT in 10-uh-C . www.model-a-ford.com ...(...Finally Updated!! ) .

10-02-2011, 11:56 AM	#5
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? The body has been stripped and primed, what you see is some Zinc Chromate(green) and some guide coat(black/grey). There was some filler from previous repair. It is so thin there I feel like I'll be chasing holes with my wire feed. I heard there were some really strong body epoxys out there nowadays, and thought they might do the job, maybe a body and paint man could chime in. (I'm still painting with Enamel, and don't know alot about all the new stuff). I did see a patch panel for sale on the HAMB that was shaped like the reveal, but it was straight and would do nothing for the crack as it comes around the rear corner. And my experience with patch panels so far is, they are a nice place to start cutting , but none fit perfectly.

10-02-2011, 12:22 PM	#6
azmodela BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 352	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Brent, who posted above yours Ralph is a body and paint man. His advice is spot on for this type of repair. If you can't do as he described, get over your fear and pull out your welder! Drill holes at the end of the crack and weld the crack up. Take your time and you'll do fine.

10-02-2011, 12:55 PM	#7
rollingsculpture Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Takoma park md Posts: 271	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? you can weld it with the wire feed if you back it with a closely fitting piece of copper or brass sheet the copper acts as a heat sink and gives the wire something to land on instead of going through the hole , keep your wire stick out no more than 1/8 in and stay close using short 1 and a half -2 second bursts of weld basically forming a long series of tack welds also when you do form a bigger hole due to burn off of the thin spots dont sweat it just fill the hole by working the edge with short bursts keep in mind that your not trying to fill in all in one long pass just short tacks that are formed close to each other to create the weld . also remember to make a series of tacks spaced 3/4 in apart to start with, than fill in between - move from one side of the break to another to allow the heat to be distributed across the entire break in other words don' start at one spot and than try to work it continuously across you will get too much heat build up which will create more burn through so jump around from point to point until the whole crack is welded grind file and hammer as needed __________________ Rust and roll will never die

10-02-2011, 01:02 PM	#8
Doug in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 965	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? My S/W body had similar stress cracks at the base of the windshield pillars. I followed some advice Brent gave me at Hershey a few years ago: I put some backing strips up against the cracks from behind before welding them. This is sort of the opposite of using a copper strip: the strips become part of the structure, reinforcing it. A potential problem with just welding is that after grinding the bead down, you may end up with a thin area that will be prone to cracking again. Here is a bunch of photos of what I did: http://www.dougbraun.com/model_a_gal...=10&g2_page=27 Doug __________________ My '31 S/W sedan project:http://31ford.dougbraun.com My restoration diary: http://dougbraun.com/blog

10-02-2011, 01:04 PM	#9
ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: oroville ca. Posts: 1,554	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? if the metal is that thin, i would get a metal scribe, one with a sharp point, and start probing the metal till you find where the rust and crack ends, and where solid metal is, then do as Bret says, cut out the bad spot to where the metal is solid, dont cut irregular pieces out, cut easy to make and form pieces, if the piece to be made is on a curve you might be able to gas weld it with out warping the metal around it, if not you will have to arc weld it stich style to keep the heat and warpage to a minimum, either way you will need to do as Brent said, hammer the weld to flatten it and to keep the grinding to a minimum that way the weld stays strong, it is very important to use the same gauge metal as the body for the patch, and a reminder you cant weld rust, dont cut out more metal than you need to, bigger patch panels mean more welding, work and more chance of warping the metal your trying to fix

10-02-2011, 01:09 PM	#10
ford1 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: oroville ca. Posts: 1,554	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? when an expert body and restoration man (BreNt) says some thing, listen closely to him , his advice will save you a lot of screw ups and hours of work

10-02-2011, 08:25 PM	#11
Ralph Moore Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Pole, Alaska Posts: 1,470	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? Sounds like I have some work to do. Thanks for all the advice. Ralph

10-02-2011, 08:38 PM	#12
rollingsculpture Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Takoma park md Posts: 271	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? if you can get some one to come out to do this work there in alaska than give them some test pieces to work on and if your happy and they are confident than you have a match if not keep checking and you may find a willing contractor or friend you dont know you have yet. __________________ Rust and roll will never die

10-02-2011, 11:09 PM	#13
callcoy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hendersonville TN Posts: 180	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? The auto manufacturers in an effort to build better and faster, for maybe 10 years have employed a 2 part epoxy like material to bond panels together. For a repair such as yours would require a backup/lap of steel approx. the same thickness of the body, going from memory 18 ga. This would have the conform to the inside of the area you are trying to repair. Both surfaces have to be clean and slightly rough to get this to adhere properly. This type of material is also used in the construction of aircraft, the 787 Dreamliner, Air Bus 380 and many others. There is a Tri-5 Chev with lower door panel patches running around here for almost 6 years without failure and I haven't seen any airplanes falling out of the sky lately. I will be installing patch panels on the lower doors of my Panel Delivery with this and will fill some of the rust lace behind the panels. As Brent mentioned individuals have used fiberglass in the past, fiberglass and epoxy has come a long way since the late 1940's. The first so called fiberglass wasn't even glass fibers, it was burlap saturated with a new product called polyester resin. The glass fiber technology was in place by the early 50's, then came Kevlar and Carbonfiber. The latest epoxy bonding materials are super strong and can be worked with common tools such as files and sand paper. The best part is the there is no heat to distort the metal. I don't have any mfg's names that supply the OEM trade, but 3M makes a product for the body shop trade __________________ Steve - Santa Rosa Last edited by callcoy; 10-02-2011 at 11:19 PM.

10-02-2011, 11:52 PM	#14
Kurt in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: on the Littlefield Posts: 6,159	Re: Best way to fix body cracks? As callcoy says -prepare the inside, make a metal patch that fits close to the contours, glue it in with panel bonder ---you might want to prepare it and see if you can stop by with the car and have the glue applied -the glue,and applicater is some $$-you have to have a clamping system prepared---any fiberglass repair I would consider tempoary, this panel bonding system with a properly prepared backing will be permanent, and probably stronger than the original undamaged would be.