The Ford Barn

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-16-2023, 07:25 PM

OK, where do I start. First off, been a "Car Guy" my entire life; probably changed every part there is on every car there is; but when you dive into something "new", that is "new to you"; well you ask questions: Just picked up a really "Good Bones", old "Restoration" 1954 Ford Y Block V8. She started right up, test drive was good, shifting fine, stopping fine (although no Power Brakes, sort of have to "stand on the pedal", drove it home 50 plus miles, highway speeds, 60-65, No Problems.

Here is where I fell short, was told it was a 6-12 Volt conversion, saw the alternator down there, and accepted that.

Got home, went out to start it, battery dead, jumped, it started right up, move it to the back garage and noticed the "one wire" from the alternator was hanging, not connected...hmmmmm....connetected it to the Positive Cable, she started right up, was going to check the Amperage....she died, like turning off the key.

Attempted to restart; sounds as if NO SPARK?

Checked the Coil, it's a "6 Volt Coil".

My guess: The Conversion wasn't done properly, when I reconnected the alternator, the 12 Volts burned out the coil.

Going to grab a 12 Volt coil, install it and see what happnes.

I'm not worried about all the other required changes, e.g Heater Motor and other accessories...at this time.

What does the group think?

Appreciate the reading and replies.

Thanks

JPL/OH

miker98038 · 07-16-2023, 07:50 PM

First, charge and check the battery. If you drove it home, maybe you just made it in the battery. Maybe the “jump” was enough to get you to the garage. Seems unlikely though.

If properly converted a resistor would have been added on the coil wire, and it’s only seeing 6 or so volts running. (This ignores the bypass for start up, another item).

A 1 wire alternator hook up is ok. But if it’s a GM, there should be a jumper between the “other” 2 connections. That also gets into another area.

Give us a little more info. Starts, drives good, shifts, sounds like a great start (pardon the pun).

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-16-2023, 09:20 PM

Great, thanks for the reply; and I like that you and I are thinking alike.

OK; so the 54 started, shifted, and stopped (test drive) fine; then I drove it a good 50 miles home, highway speeds; no problems; but yes I agree probably solely on the battery, No alternator working during the drive.

Went to start, dead, jumped it, again drove home, and ran great. (2 mile drive).

Put the battery on a charge, overnight; test: the battery is good, strong.

Connected that "one wire" from the alternator that was hanging to the "Positive Battery Cable"; this is, how I've done such "one wire" alternators in the past....keep in mind, the car is a 54, old restoration, was sold at an Estate Sale, so I'm not sure "what, how" the conversion was done but as I get into it; I've seeing a lot of "?" stuff.....dealing with a lot of "unknowns".

After a full charge of the battery; after connecting the "one wire" alternator...started right up, accelerated, idled beautifully....as she was sitting there idling; she simply stopped; like I turn the ignition key off.

Went to start; the engine would simply crank.

Getting fuel; battery up; I'm thinking NO SPARK.

That is when I took the coil off and saw it was a "6 Volt Coil".

My "Shade Tree Mechanic" knowledge.....I blew the coil by connecting the alternator wire, pushing too many (12 vlt) amps to the coil.

Correct?

Your thoughts/

JPL/OH

dmsfrr · 07-16-2023, 09:27 PM

Here's an info page about 6v to 12v conversion. Yes it was written for '55 T-birds but 99% of it will apply to your '54.

https://www.ctci.org/battery-for-6v-to-12v-conversion/

If it was converted to 12v it should have a ballast resistor in the Red/green power wire to the ignition coil. Also a 4 terminal starter solenoid, the 6v has 3 terminals.

Brakes: the shoes aren't self-adjusting like newer cars and must be manually adjusted every several (5) thousand miles to work better. If the fluid hasn't been flushed & replaced recently it's already way past time to be done.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-16-2023, 09:31 PM

Appreciate the reply; let me take a good look at the pics and see what, and where I want to go. I'll keep you posted as to my results. Again, many thanks.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-16-2023, 09:32 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

One quick question; the required "Ballast Resister", typical 12 vlt. resistor?

dmsfrr · 07-17-2023, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54FordYBlockGuy

One quick question; the required "Ballast Resister", typical 12 vlt. resistor?

I don't have a part number handy, but it would be the same part as used from '56 on in the vehicle you have. There were a couple different versions for different vehicles.

12v conversion and a 'one wire' alternator... diagnosing your existing problems and what was done, or not done, by the previous owner can be tricky because we can't really see what you have... and there can potentially be so many ways for it to have been done badly.
.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-17-2023, 08:20 AM

Agree with the, based on what I am finding: "done badly"....oh well, often expected when finding, buying a 70 year old past restoration.

One more question: If I pick up an "Internal Ballast Coil" do I need, or can I skip the ballast resistor feeding the coil?

Thanks
JPL/OH

cadillac512 · 07-17-2023, 10:12 AM

If the coil has an internal resistor you should skip the ballast resistor. What you want to end up with is approx 3 ohms resistance total.

Terry

dmsfrr · 07-17-2023, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54FordYBlockGuy

...
One more question: If I pick up an "Internal Ballast Coil" do I need, or can I skip the ballast resistor feeding the coil?
Thanks
JPL/OH

Yes, it may work just fine or could be slightly harder to start.
In 12v Fords of this era the original "I" wire from the solenoid to the ignition coil bypasses the ballast resistor with a full 12v to the coil to give you a hotter spark during cranking.
.

paul2748 · 07-17-2023, 07:33 PM

On my 54, I use an coil with an internal resistor. Has worked fine for over 10 years.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-18-2023, 06:20 AM

Paul2748: I think I'm going to go the way of the "Internal Resistor" at this point, just to get the 54 back up and running. As I said, it's an old restoration, a lot of hands have been on this Ford, and I'm finding wires connected (new), and old wires disconnected; just not sure what was done, but it was running fine but probably just off the battery; once I connected that alternator wire, blew the coil, found they kept the 6 Vlt coils on there while running a 12-volt battery, well a lot of unknown.

So connected the alternator wire, picked up a 12-volt coil, and some resistors, but rather than cutting into some more "unknown wires", just may go the "internal Resistor" route.

? Any specific type of coil you are running, or in this case is a 12 volt coil a 12-volt coil?

Thanks.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-19-2023, 03:14 PM

UPDATE on the 54 Ford "Blown Coil". Just to remind the group; picked up this 54, past restoration, sat for years, was told it was 6-12 volt conversion; the battery died on me, found other "?" conversion work; connected the "one wire" alternator that was off, blew the coil, found that it still had a 6 volt coil. Went and picked up an "Internal Ballas Coil" (Summit Racing, they are about 30 miles from me), installed the coil, repaired some "?" wiring, and she fired right up and idled smoothly. Going to start and see what else needs to be worked on just to make her a "Dairy Queen Cruiser", thanks for all the tips.

JeffB2 · 08-05-2023, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54FordYBlockGuy

UPDATE on the 54 Ford "Blown Coil". Just to remind the group; picked up this 54, past restoration, sat for years, was told it was 6-12 volt conversion; the battery died on me, found other "?" conversion work; connected the "one wire" alternator that was off, blew the coil, found that it still had a 6 volt coil. Went and picked up an "Internal Ballas Coil" (Summit Racing, they are about 30 miles from me), installed the coil, repaired some "?" wiring, and she fired right up and idled smoothly. Going to start and see what else needs to be worked on just to make her a "Dairy Queen Cruiser", thanks for all the tips.

Best step by step guide for 50s Fords is this, use it as a check list. https://darksidersrealm.forumotion.c...egative-ground

54FordYBlockGuy · 08-06-2023, 03:40 PM

UPDATE: Appreciate all the replies; as of now, she's running, I put an internal resister coil on, and is working fine. I just got back from Florida; so I haven't been working on it, but I am going to do some interior work (gut, replace) while I wait and see what mechanics I need to do; may post a new post reference to the interior, "carpeting". Great forum and again thanks for the tips.

54FordYBlockGuy · 08-31-2023, 12:22 PM

Group; I've been working on gutting, and re-doing the interior so haven't started, checked the charging on the engine; so while waiting for some paint to dry; went in, started the 54, and she started right up.

Put an Olm meter on the battery before starting; read good 12+, started her up, same reading was 12 + which tells me she isn't charging.

Now, again not sure what the past owner did about a conversion (6-12), but his alternator was on there, I connected the "one wire" to the Positive.....I changed the 6 volt coil to an "Internal Ballast Coil - 12 Volt" but NO Charge reading on the ohm.

? Bad Alternator

How do I check the alternator, or would my abovementioned meter check be enough?

? Where to start now?

54FordYBlockGuy · 08-31-2023, 12:52 PM

I guess what I am asking:

Q. At this point, I'm not concerned with getting all the guages; limited as they are; just the simple "Idiot Lights"; What exactly do I need to change when going from the 6 Volt to 12 Volt?

It has the following:
12 Volt Battery
12 Coil (Internal Ballast)
Correct (appears) Selenoid
One Wire Alternator.

If all those components are working properly, the "One Wire Alternator", simple connection, "one wire to Positive Battery terminal";

Q. Would that be sufficient to charge the battery?

She starts right up; the horn works, the gas gauge works; lights go on, turn signals work; NO CHARGE?

Dobie Gillis · 08-31-2023, 01:47 PM

If it's a GM alternator you may need to goose the throttle to get it to start charging. 800+ RPM is usually sufficient.

miker98038 · 08-31-2023, 08:34 PM

Here’s 2 links.

The first is the typical 3 wire wiring diagram. All 3 wires hooked up. Since you don’t have a fuse box, that would be the “run” position on the ignition switch.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/758504762217029461/

This one is the “jumper” to convert to a 1 wire connection.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Alternat...edirect=mobile

The 3 wire connection has advantages. First is the idiot light works. Second is the last wire senses voltage at the battery and adjusts the output as necessary. Depending on the car and wiring, when it’s making say 13.7 volts running at the alternator you may only see 12.1 volts at the battery. Mainly a problem with the battery in the trunk, or high resistance connections in the middle.

The jumper plugs in, and connects to the output terminal. So it provides voltage to the exciter to start the charging process. Without it, as pointed out above, you need to get the rev’s up to start charging. But I’ve had alternators that had to see over 2000 rpm to self energize.

Since your car was wired for a generator and separate regulator, it hard to say how it might or might not have been connected, or “jumped” at the old regulator location.

54FordYBlockGuy · 09-01-2023, 07:51 AM

Thanks, Miker98038:

The "revving up" the engine may be the trick but before I do that, I pulled the alternator off and went to take it to a local parts shop....... after I spent about 30 minutes explaining to the person behind the desk that "It doesn't matter what type of car it is off of"....LOL, going to have them check to see if the alternator is good, charging...then I'll do the "revving up"; or I just may purchase a "2 Wire Alternator" and go from there.

What I am saying, thinking is: Forget at this point any of the accessories, gauges, heater blower, idiot lights, etc.; I'm just seeking to get the alternator "charging the batter". The way I am looking at it is; that all that "Alternator" or "Generator" does, or at least the "main purpose" of either is to keep that battery "charged"; correct?

Now when seeking that "charge", aka: "current" for other uses; then you get into resistors, fuses etc. but for the "charging aspect"; well that what I am looking for; a proper connection ensuring it is provides the "charge" and the auto is not running off the "battery only".

The 54 "Starts Fine", "Runs Fine", "Lights - Headlights and Tailights Work" (were told they were/are all 12 volt), and "Horn Works"....so those are getting current, but again may just be off the battery at this point.

OK, again thanks for the information; back to under the hood.

07-16-2023, 07:25 PM	#1
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block OK, where do I start. First off, been a "Car Guy" my entire life; probably changed every part there is on every car there is; but when you dive into something "new", that is "new to you"; well you ask questions: Just picked up a really "Good Bones", old "Restoration" 1954 Ford Y Block V8. She started right up, test drive was good, shifting fine, stopping fine (although no Power Brakes, sort of have to "stand on the pedal", drove it home 50 plus miles, highway speeds, 60-65, No Problems. Here is where I fell short, was told it was a 6-12 Volt conversion, saw the alternator down there, and accepted that. Got home, went out to start it, battery dead, jumped, it started right up, move it to the back garage and noticed the "one wire" from the alternator was hanging, not connected...hmmmmm....connetected it to the Positive Cable, she started right up, was going to check the Amperage....she died, like turning off the key. Attempted to restart; sounds as if NO SPARK? Checked the Coil, it's a "6 Volt Coil". My guess: The Conversion wasn't done properly, when I reconnected the alternator, the 12 Volts burned out the coil. Going to grab a 12 Volt coil, install it and see what happnes. I'm not worried about all the other required changes, e.g Heater Motor and other accessories...at this time. What does the group think? Appreciate the reading and replies. Thanks JPL/OH

07-16-2023, 07:50 PM	#2
miker98038 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kent, WA. Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,398	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block First, charge and check the battery. If you drove it home, maybe you just made it in the battery. Maybe the “jump” was enough to get you to the garage. Seems unlikely though. If properly converted a resistor would have been added on the coil wire, and it’s only seeing 6 or so volts running. (This ignores the bypass for start up, another item). A 1 wire alternator hook up is ok. But if it’s a GM, there should be a jumper between the “other” 2 connections. That also gets into another area. Give us a little more info. Starts, drives good, shifts, sounds like a great start (pardon the pun).

07-16-2023, 09:20 PM	#3
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Great, thanks for the reply; and I like that you and I are thinking alike. OK; so the 54 started, shifted, and stopped (test drive) fine; then I drove it a good 50 miles home, highway speeds; no problems; but yes I agree probably solely on the battery, No alternator working during the drive. Went to start, dead, jumped it, again drove home, and ran great. (2 mile drive). Put the battery on a charge, overnight; test: the battery is good, strong. Connected that "one wire" from the alternator that was hanging to the "Positive Battery Cable"; this is, how I've done such "one wire" alternators in the past....keep in mind, the car is a 54, old restoration, was sold at an Estate Sale, so I'm not sure "what, how" the conversion was done but as I get into it; I've seeing a lot of "?" stuff.....dealing with a lot of "unknowns". After a full charge of the battery; after connecting the "one wire" alternator...started right up, accelerated, idled beautifully....as she was sitting there idling; she simply stopped; like I turn the ignition key off. Went to start; the engine would simply crank. Getting fuel; battery up; I'm thinking NO SPARK. That is when I took the coil off and saw it was a "6 Volt Coil". My "Shade Tree Mechanic" knowledge.....I blew the coil by connecting the alternator wire, pushing too many (12 vlt) amps to the coil. Correct? Your thoughts/ JPL/OH

07-16-2023, 09:31 PM	#5
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Appreciate the reply; let me take a good look at the pics and see what, and where I want to go. I'll keep you posted as to my results. Again, many thanks.

07-16-2023, 09:32 PM	#6
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) One quick question; the required "Ballast Resister", typical 12 vlt. resistor?

07-17-2023, 08:20 AM	#8
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Agree with the, based on what I am finding: "done badly"....oh well, often expected when finding, buying a 70 year old past restoration. One more question: If I pick up an "Internal Ballast Coil" do I need, or can I skip the ballast resistor feeding the coil? Thanks JPL/OH

07-17-2023, 10:12 AM	#9
cadillac512 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Kansas Posts: 921	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block If the coil has an internal resistor you should skip the ballast resistor. What you want to end up with is approx 3 ohms resistance total. Terry __________________ "It don't take but country smarts to solve the problem" (Smokey Yunick) '41 Merc Town Sedan / 260" 8CM engine '66 Fairlane four door / "warmed up" 302

07-17-2023, 07:33 PM	#11
paul2748 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,982	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block On my 54, I use an coil with an internal resistor. Has worked fine for over 10 years. __________________ 48 Ford Conv 56 Tbird 54 Ford Victoria

07-18-2023, 06:20 AM	#12
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Paul2748: I think I'm going to go the way of the "Internal Resistor" at this point, just to get the 54 back up and running. As I said, it's an old restoration, a lot of hands have been on this Ford, and I'm finding wires connected (new), and old wires disconnected; just not sure what was done, but it was running fine but probably just off the battery; once I connected that alternator wire, blew the coil, found they kept the 6 Vlt coils on there while running a 12-volt battery, well a lot of unknown. So connected the alternator wire, picked up a 12-volt coil, and some resistors, but rather than cutting into some more "unknown wires", just may go the "internal Resistor" route. ? Any specific type of coil you are running, or in this case is a 12 volt coil a 12-volt coil? Thanks.

07-19-2023, 03:14 PM	#13
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block UPDATE on the 54 Ford "Blown Coil". Just to remind the group; picked up this 54, past restoration, sat for years, was told it was 6-12 volt conversion; the battery died on me, found other "?" conversion work; connected the "one wire" alternator that was off, blew the coil, found that it still had a 6 volt coil. Went and picked up an "Internal Ballas Coil" (Summit Racing, they are about 30 miles from me), installed the coil, repaired some "?" wiring, and she fired right up and idled smoothly. Going to start and see what else needs to be worked on just to make her a "Dairy Queen Cruiser", thanks for all the tips.

08-06-2023, 03:40 PM	#15
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block UPDATE: Appreciate all the replies; as of now, she's running, I put an internal resister coil on, and is working fine. I just got back from Florida; so I haven't been working on it, but I am going to do some interior work (gut, replace) while I wait and see what mechanics I need to do; may post a new post reference to the interior, "carpeting". Great forum and again thanks for the tips.

08-31-2023, 12:22 PM	#16
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Group; I've been working on gutting, and re-doing the interior so haven't started, checked the charging on the engine; so while waiting for some paint to dry; went in, started the 54, and she started right up. Put an Olm meter on the battery before starting; read good 12+, started her up, same reading was 12 + which tells me she isn't charging. Now, again not sure what the past owner did about a conversion (6-12), but his alternator was on there, I connected the "one wire" to the Positive.....I changed the 6 volt coil to an "Internal Ballast Coil - 12 Volt" but NO Charge reading on the ohm. ? Bad Alternator How do I check the alternator, or would my abovementioned meter check be enough? ? Where to start now?

08-31-2023, 12:52 PM	#17
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block I guess what I am asking: *Q. At this point, I'm not concerned with getting all the guages; limited as they are; just the simple "Idiot Lights"; What exactly do I need to change when going from the 6 Volt to 12* Volt? It has the following: 12 Volt Battery 12 Coil (Internal Ballast) Correct (appears) Selenoid One Wire Alternator.** If all those components are working properly, the "One Wire Alternator", simple connection, "one wire to Positive Battery terminal"; Q. Would that be sufficient to charge the battery? She starts right up; the horn works, the gas gauge works; lights go on, turn signals work; NO CHARGE?

08-31-2023, 01:47 PM	#18
Dobie Gillis Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Middle TN Posts: 1,060	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block If it's a GM alternator you may need to goose the throttle to get it to start charging. 800+ RPM is usually sufficient. __________________ Often wrong but never in doubt.

08-31-2023, 08:34 PM	#19
miker98038 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kent, WA. Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,398	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Here’s 2 links. The first is the typical 3 wire wiring diagram. All 3 wires hooked up. Since you don’t have a fuse box, that would be the “run” position on the ignition switch. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/758504762217029461/ This one is the “jumper” to convert to a 1 wire connection. https://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Alternat...edirect=mobile The 3 wire connection has advantages. First is the idiot light works. Second is the last wire senses voltage at the battery and adjusts the output as necessary. Depending on the car and wiring, when it’s making say 13.7 volts running at the alternator you may only see 12.1 volts at the battery. Mainly a problem with the battery in the trunk, or high resistance connections in the middle. The jumper plugs in, and connects to the output terminal. So it provides voltage to the exciter to start the charging process. Without it, as pointed out above, you need to get the rev’s up to start charging. But I’ve had alternators that had to see over 2000 rpm to self energize. Since your car was wired for a generator and separate regulator, it hard to say how it might or might not have been connected, or “jumped” at the old regulator location.

09-01-2023, 07:51 AM	#20
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: 6 Volt to 12 Volt Conversion 1954 Y Block Thanks, Miker98038: The "revving up" the engine may be the trick but before I do that, I pulled the alternator off and went to take it to a local parts shop....... after I spent about 30 minutes explaining to the person behind the desk that "It doesn't matter what type of car it is off of"....LOL, going to have them check to see if the alternator is good, charging...then I'll do the "revving up"; or I just may purchase a "2 Wire Alternator" and go from there. What I am saying, thinking is: Forget at this point any of the accessories, gauges, heater blower, idiot lights, etc.; I'm just seeking to get the alternator "charging the batter". The way I am looking at it is; that all that "Alternator" or "Generator" does, or at least the "main purpose" of either is to keep that battery "charged"; correct? Now when seeking that "charge", aka: "current" for other uses; then you get into resistors, fuses etc. but for the "charging aspect"; well that what I am looking for; a proper connection ensuring it is provides the "charge" and the auto is not running off the "battery only". The 54 "Starts Fine", "Runs Fine", "Lights - Headlights and Tailights Work" (were told they were/are all 12 volt), and "Horn Works"....so those are getting current, but again may just be off the battery at this point. OK, again thanks for the information; back to under the hood.