The Ford Barn

oldmotorsguy · 04-07-2011, 08:35 AM

I've just completed the task of removing the engine from a 1926 Model T Coupe, replacing the hogshead gaskets, bendix cover and starter gaskets and reinstalling the engine. An unknown 'mechanic' before me simply laid a bead of silicone in place of the upper felt gasket at some point in the past, perhaps during the Nixon administration, and of course it failed in the fullness of time. This car not only leaked, it poured.

I tried to simply remove the hogshead with the engine in place, and despite my very best efforts and contemplation, I could not find the clearance from the firewall to remove it. I'm sure there is a way, but I got so tired from yanking and pulling on it from the passenger door access, in my despair and frustration, I gave up just and yanked the engine.

All of this is not my point (although venting feels good): in the Model T Ford Service manual (the blue 'bible'), I am looking periodically at the 'Time Study' paragraphs at the end of each task, and am agog in disbelief at the times ol' Hank suggested be billed. I have the advantage of air tools instead of hand spanners, hydraulic cherry picker and engine leveler instead of lifting hooks and chain falls, and a myriad of other modern tools at my disposal, and yet it takes me TEN TIMES the effort and time that Hank suggests in his Time Studies.

This was not my first Model T engine removal and reinstallation, so a 'learning curve' is not really a major factor in my speed.

How on earth did Henry Ford calculate these time studies? There's just no way that one guy can meet them. That, or I am the dumbest and slowest Model T mechanic ever on the face of the earth....

CharlieB · 04-07-2011, 09:40 AM

Been involved with time studies and I'l tell you one thing: they are calculated under the best of conditions. No problems are encountered and breaks and walking over to get a tool aren't counted. It's a "by the bible" and by expert mechanics time count. As a Post Office mech. many centuries ago, the times were liberal but years later as a N.Y.C. mechanic the city tried timing jobs and NOBODY could come close to their job/time limits. Guess it depends on who is holding the stop watch.

redmodelt · 04-07-2011, 10:26 AM

Some where I saw an article on the young wiper snapper that did the time test. You are right about the test being conducted under the best of circumstances. I guess if you are young and full of vim and vigor you might come close! I double or triple the time to do the job, 15 min. bands, hog wash

!

oldmotorsguy · 04-07-2011, 10:28 AM

Charlie B: The only way that anyone could meet these times are under absolute perfect conditions on a new vehicle. No scraping of old gaskets, and like you say, no looking around for wrenches, no taking a break after huffing and puffing pulling on a 500 pound engine and tranny assembly, none of that. And the mechanic would have to be an expert Ford trained guy with lots and lots of experience in each task, with perhaps a helper handing him tools, etc. And the expert mechanic is in perfect physical condition, a body builder who can bench press 500 pounds, and who is at his prime, maybe 27 or 28 years old. None of these criteria apply to me, I can tell you that right now.

My question now would be: what good are these times if they only calculate perfection that can never be reached? Why even bother paying for the ink to put them into press?

oldmotorsguy · 04-07-2011, 10:30 AM

Red Model T: I saw that band change time, too. Complete fantasy. I wouldn't mind reading that article about someone coming in under any time in the blue bible. I enjoy fiction, usually.

Hotrodster · 04-07-2011, 07:23 PM

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The reason they were developed was to allow shops to estimate repairs and also as a way to pay the mechanics. Later they were called flat rate manuals and mechanics were paid by the flat rate rather than by the hour. I suspect that the manuals were heavily tilted in favor of the dealers and shop owners in order to keep wage costs down.

oldmotorsguy · 04-08-2011, 10:35 AM

Hotrodster: I still am not convinced that these time studies were merely a vehicle used by dealerships to bill customers for repairs. Because the times were so slanted towards fantasy, how could any dealership possibly make any kind of margin whatsoever by using these data? For example, overhauling front axle: Hank says 2 hours 35 minutes. Simply disassembly of the components are a few hours, at least. Then cleaning the parts? And fitting new bushings? A guy at a 1926 dealership making say $4 a day would take all day doing this, assuming the car was dirty, some nuts and bolts banged and stripped, you know, the usual stuff that occurs to a car whose front axle is worn enough to need overhauling. The dealer would take a bath only charging the customer 2.5 hours of labor. The dealership may have charged $1 hour labor, but had to eat the actual cost of the labor. Just doesn't add up to me.

Jack Innes · 04-08-2011, 11:39 AM

I am sure the time study figures relied on everything going easily & a ready supply of new parts in stock. Not rusty seized items that we are used to & the parts supply being at the door of a UPS truck days or weekas away. They also count on motivated, experienced mechanics with the correct tools.

To give an example of times involved here is a page from the 1929 ledger from Chas Ertl'g Garage in Bazine Kansas.

You will see the entry re Julius Huss on 7-23-29 to change pistons, pins, bushings & rings - labour $15. Other entries; Repair tire $.50 that would include a patch at least. Tighten rods, including 1 new rod - $4 total.

These prices reflect the retail labor rate not what a mechanic would be paid.

If you look to the right column you will see the record of payment. How many chickens does a tire repair cost today?

oldmotorsguy · 04-08-2011, 01:52 PM

Jack: ol' Julius and everybody back then seemed to always have real nice penmanship. Even mechanics. I agree that folks back then, when someone was paying them, were HIGHLY MOTIVATED. Social Security and Medicare were decades down the road. It was produce, or hit the road. Ah, the good ol' days....

Me, when faced with installing the driver side motor mount bolts, will find lots of other things of critical importance to do to avoid the task at hand, and then finally bite the bullet and go for it. Agreed, my motivation at age 56 isn't where it was 30 years ago.

Looking at what Julius did in a day does make me wonder how much of a factor it was working on a car that was only 5 years old, versus working on the same car 80 years later.

FL&WVMIKE · 04-08-2011, 04:57 PM

Oldmotorsguy ...................
I'm thinking that these timestudies were for the assembly of a new car. This would be dealing with all the correct parts and tools right at your hand.
MIKE

joncrane · 04-08-2011, 07:30 PM

I have an acquaintance who changed Model A engines at the dealership. Was paid $5 to pull and engine and install a new one. Did one each morning and one each afternoon to make $10 per day which was good money in 1938. They had to run well when they left his bay.

CharlieB · 04-09-2011, 07:37 AM

I too don't think they were used to charge customers only because of the apparent short times given. In my case we didn't deal with the public at all. The times were used more to rate a guy's ability to do the work. Even that isn't realistic but it was used that way.

04-07-2011, 08:35 AM	#1
oldmotorsguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Crossville, Tennessee Posts: 157	What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' I've just completed the task of removing the engine from a 1926 Model T Coupe, replacing the hogshead gaskets, bendix cover and starter gaskets and reinstalling the engine. An unknown 'mechanic' before me simply laid a bead of silicone in place of the upper felt gasket at some point in the past, perhaps during the Nixon administration, and of course it failed in the fullness of time. This car not only leaked, it poured. I tried to simply remove the hogshead with the engine in place, and despite my very best efforts and contemplation, I could not find the clearance from the firewall to remove it. I'm sure there is a way, but I got so tired from yanking and pulling on it from the passenger door access, in my despair and frustration, I gave up just and yanked the engine. All of this is not my point (although venting feels good): in the Model T Ford Service manual (the blue 'bible'), I am looking periodically at the 'Time Study' paragraphs at the end of each task, and am agog in disbelief at the times ol' Hank suggested be billed. I have the advantage of air tools instead of hand spanners, hydraulic cherry picker and engine leveler instead of lifting hooks and chain falls, and a myriad of other modern tools at my disposal, and yet it takes me TEN TIMES the effort and time that Hank suggests in his Time Studies. This was not my first Model T engine removal and reinstallation, so a 'learning curve' is not really a major factor in my speed. *How on earth did Henry Ford calculate these time studies?* There's just no way that one guy can meet them. That, or I am the dumbest and slowest Model T mechanic ever on the face of the earth....

04-07-2011, 09:40 AM	#2
CharlieB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Toms River N.J. Posts: 515	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Been involved with time studies and I'l tell you one thing: they are calculated under the best of conditions. No problems are encountered and breaks and walking over to get a tool aren't counted. It's a "by the bible" and by expert mechanics time count. As a Post Office mech. many centuries ago, the times were liberal but years later as a N.Y.C. mechanic the city tried timing jobs and NOBODY could come close to their job/time limits. Guess it depends on who is holding the stop watch.

04-07-2011, 10:26 AM	#3
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,342	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Some where I saw an article on the young wiper snapper that did the time test. You are right about the test being conducted under the best of circumstances. I guess if you are young and full of vim and vigor you might come close! I double or triple the time to do the job, 15 min. bands, hog wash !

04-07-2011, 10:28 AM	#4
oldmotorsguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Crossville, Tennessee Posts: 157	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Charlie B: The only way that anyone could meet these times are under absolute perfect conditions on a new vehicle. No scraping of old gaskets, and like you say, no looking around for wrenches, no taking a break after huffing and puffing pulling on a 500 pound engine and tranny assembly, none of that. And the mechanic would have to be an expert Ford trained guy with lots and lots of experience in each task, with perhaps a helper handing him tools, etc. And the expert mechanic is in perfect physical condition, a body builder who can bench press 500 pounds, and who is at his prime, maybe 27 or 28 years old. None of these criteria apply to me, I can tell you that right now. My question now would be: what good are these times if they only calculate perfection that can never be reached? Why even bother paying for the ink to put them into press?

04-07-2011, 10:30 AM	#5
oldmotorsguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Crossville, Tennessee Posts: 157	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Red Model T: I saw that band change time, too. Complete fantasy. I wouldn't mind reading that article about someone coming in under any time in the blue bible. I enjoy fiction, usually.

04-07-2011, 07:23 PM	#6
Hotrodster Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 48	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The reason they were developed was to allow shops to estimate repairs and also as a way to pay the mechanics. Later they were called flat rate manuals and mechanics were paid by the flat rate rather than by the hour. I suspect that the manuals were heavily tilted in favor of the dealers and shop owners in order to keep wage costs down.

04-08-2011, 10:35 AM	#7
oldmotorsguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Crossville, Tennessee Posts: 157	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Hotrodster: I still am not convinced that these time studies were merely a vehicle used by dealerships to bill customers for repairs. Because the times were so slanted towards fantasy, how could any dealership possibly make any kind of margin whatsoever by using these data? For example, overhauling front axle: Hank says 2 hours 35 minutes. Simply disassembly of the components are a few hours, at least. Then cleaning the parts? And fitting new bushings? A guy at a 1926 dealership making say $4 a day would take all day doing this, assuming the car was dirty, some nuts and bolts banged and stripped, you know, the usual stuff that occurs to a car whose front axle is worn enough to need overhauling. The dealer would take a bath only charging the customer 2.5 hours of labor. The dealership may have charged $1 hour labor, but had to eat the actual cost of the labor. Just doesn't add up to me.

04-08-2011, 01:52 PM	#9
oldmotorsguy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Crossville, Tennessee Posts: 157	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Jack: ol' Julius and everybody back then seemed to always have real nice penmanship. Even mechanics. I agree that folks back then, when someone was paying them, were HIGHLY MOTIVATED. Social Security and Medicare were decades down the road. It was produce, or hit the road. Ah, the good ol' days.... Me, when faced with installing the driver side motor mount bolts, will find lots of other things of critical importance to do to avoid the task at hand, and then finally bite the bullet and go for it. Agreed, my motivation at age 56 isn't where it was 30 years ago. Looking at what Julius did in a day does make me wonder how much of a factor it was working on a car that was only 5 years old, versus working on the same car 80 years later.

04-08-2011, 04:57 PM	#10
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' Oldmotorsguy ................... I'm thinking that these timestudies were for the assembly of a new car. This would be dealing with all the correct parts and tools right at your hand. MIKE

04-08-2011, 07:30 PM	#11
joncrane Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: rochester Michigan Posts: 78	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' I have an acquaintance who changed Model A engines at the dealership. Was paid $5 to pull and engine and install a new one. Did one each morning and one each afternoon to make $10 per day which was good money in 1938. They had to run well when they left his bay.

04-09-2011, 07:37 AM	#12
CharlieB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Toms River N.J. Posts: 515	Re: What's the deal with Hank's 'time studies?' I too don't think they were used to charge customers only because of the apparent short times given. In my case we didn't deal with the public at all. The times were used more to rate a guy's ability to do the work. Even that isn't realistic but it was used that way.