The Ford Barn

Bored&Stroked · 07-19-2016, 03:42 PM

If you're saying that ALL the main caps were on it, torqued down and the engine turned over fine, then it isn't the bearings, or anything to do with the crank, rods and pistons and most likely flywheel.

I think you have the right idea, pull the pan - with it off, validate that everything rotates as it should, then pull the rear rope seal and SOAK it in engine oil (for at least a day), put it back in, make sure it is well seated in the pan groove (use a pipe or big socket and a rubber mallet to form it into the pan groove) and put it back together.

You should NOT have to trim the length of it - it should compress on the ends and seal correctly. Sometimes I put a glob of RTV on the ends, but even that should not be necessary for sealing.

edhd58 · 07-19-2016, 07:15 PM

You should NOT have to trim the length of it - it should compress on the ends and seal correctly. Sometimes I put a glob of RTV on the ends, but even that should not be necessary for sealing.

Agreed, I had to put my pan on as well and the machine shop said be sure NOT to trim the seal flush (leave it up just a hair(yep he said that)) AND put a small dob of gasket sealer too. My pan gasket lays between the ends of the rope seal and everything together presses to form a leak free seal.

There again i was told to spin the assembly as i torqued it and i wouldn't have any problems, which I didn't, but it did get snug turning by hand. with the starter it was a little slow for a few seconds. everything is fine now,

Mart · 07-20-2016, 03:43 AM

I had a thought about this this morning. It can't be the rope seal (rear main) The seal is retained by the main cap. fitting the pan will not have any effect on it. If the main ncap is correctly torqued, that's it. The pan is not a factor.

If it turns ok pan off and is locked with pan on, I would be looking for a foul condition between the pan and oil pump pickup - something may be getting bent and fouling on the crank.

I dunno what it is, but in my mind at least, it is not the rear rope seal. The front seal is a one piece so that is not under consideration.

I will add a rider to this - if the 8BA pan is different to 59A, around the area of the rear seal, that may make a difference. I'm a 59A guy, never had an 8BA.

Mart.

Bored&Stroked · 07-20-2016, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mart

I had a thought about this this morning. It can't be the rope seal (rear main) The seal is retained by the main cap. fitting the pan will not have any effect on it. If the main ncap is correctly torqued, that's it. The pan is not a factor.

If it turns ok pan off and is locked with pan on, I would be looking for a foul condition between the pan and oil pump pickup - something may be getting bent and fouling on the crank.

I dunno what it is, but in my mind at least, it is not the rear rope seal. The front seal is a one piece so that is not under consideration.

I will add a rider to this - if the 8BA pan is different to 59A, around the area of the rear seal, that may make a difference. I'm a 59A guy, never had an 8BA.

Mart.

You're thinking 32 - 48 . . . the pan or a special aluminum plate holds the lower rear main seal in a 49-53. It is not in the cap.

D

Mart · 07-20-2016, 05:25 AM

^^^ Thanks for the clarification. It dawned on me as I was writing that 8BA might be different. I've only messed with the earlier stuff, and French, which are the same as the early ones.

Mart.

markdtn · 07-20-2016, 06:09 AM

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Last night I dropped the pan and I am able to turn it with a 1/2" breaker bar. Not easy, but it will turn. I am going to oil the seal and put it back together. I turned it at least 5-6 full turns so I am confident that nothing is hitting or interfering. I built the engine in late February so it is dryer inside than I would like. With the pan off, I almost rolled the block side of the rear main seal out but I was able to get it to go back in. I was not relishing the thought of loosening the crank.

While I have the pan off; I want to pull the oil pump, prime it again, put the pan back on, fill it with oil, and put a starter on it. Get it spinning good with the plugs out and build oil pressure. I think it will be OK then.

Jack E/NJ · 07-20-2016, 09:18 AM

>>>I want to pull the oil pump, prime it again, put the pan back on, fill it with oil, and put a starter on it. >>>

Probably easier to rig a funnel to the pressure sensor hole, and let a quart or three of fresh oil slowly percolate thru the whole system. Prime all my rebuilds similarly, not just flatheads.

Jack E/NJ

chap52 · 07-21-2016, 06:55 AM

We have all been through this...doing and re-doing. Please keep us posted. You will get it figured out. Enjoy the adventure!

BABAR40 · 07-21-2016, 07:24 AM

And this too shall pass. Not the most daunting job but it will get rectified.
Keep a stiff upper lip and good luck.

Bored&Stroked · 07-21-2016, 07:26 AM

If you have a a big 1/2" torque wrench, you should put it on the front nut and record how much torque it takes to turn the engine over - would be very interested to see what number you come back with (for future reference). I have a newly built engine in my shop that has yet to be started - will be happy to test/share the torque number with you. It is a 49-53 and the pan is not on it. You post sure makes me think that it is way too tight - but hard to know by "description". Good luck.

D

V12Bill · 07-21-2016, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markdtn

OK, maybe not flattop. They have a small dome. They are not high compression.

I am going to drop the pan and oil the rope seal and maybe trim it a little. I am 99.99% sure that will fix it. Pretty sure there will be no need to drop main caps or cam gear or flywheel. As I said early on, it rotated just fine until I put the oil pan on. The complete rotating assembly shown in the photo was relatively easy to turn.

Thanks for the advice.

Rope seals should not be trimmed. The excess that sticks out before the cap and mating seal are installed , crushes down to make a nice tight fit. It will not be so tight as to seize the engine.

flatjack9 · 07-21-2016, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V12Bill

Rope seals should not be trimmed. The excess that sticks out before the cap and mating seal are installed , crushes down to make a nice tight fit. It will not be so tight as to seize the engine.

On an 8BA the rear rope seal absolutely needs to be trimmed. In fact a knife and trim guide are included with the kit. I only use the new graphite seals in all my builds.

Ross F-1 · 07-21-2016, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatjack9

On an 8BA the rear rope seal absolutely needs to be trimmed. In fact a knife and trim guide are included with the kit. I only use the new graphite seals in all my builds.

Yep, here is the Best Gasket installation picture. The "popsicle stick" is just the right thickness for the amount to stand proud of the block.

Any engine with all new rings can be very tight to turn until it has run even a little bit.

Bored&Stroked · 07-22-2016, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatjack9

On an 8BA the rear rope seal absolutely needs to be trimmed. In fact a knife and trim guide are included with the kit. I only use the new graphite seals in all my builds.

It just kind of depends on whose gasket set you order - and I agree that the Best gasket GraphTite set if the best.

On the Best gasket set, they have some nice instructions and they DO want you to trim the seal. Heck they even supply the box-cutter knife.

On most of the original type seals (white rope stuff), you don't need to trim them - they stick up proud just a bit and will compress upon installation of the crank, cap, pan (depending on the model).

markdtn · 09-16-2016, 09:46 AM

I wanted to follow up with my progress.

I pulled the pan and oiled the rope seal. I poured ATF in each cylinder and started rotating tooth by tooth. After about 2 revolutions it got easier and I could turn it with a breaker bar without extension. A week or so later, I got all the ATF out of the bottom. About 2 weeks ago, I put the pan back on and mounted the starter. Filled it with oil. Last night, I left all the spark plugs out and spun it with the starter until it built oil pressure. Everything seems OK now. I am going to finish up a few knick-knacks and paint it before I dress it out and crank it. Should be in the next few weeks.

tubman · 09-16-2016, 12:08 PM

I, for one, really appreciate it when the OP takes the time to come back and post the results like this. Thanks, "markdtn". Good luck with your engine!

Bulligen · 09-16-2016, 12:39 PM

I will bet it is the dry oil seal! I have even cleaned up the ends of the rope a little to shorten it slightly before I soaked it in oil overnight. Good Luck!

FL&WVMIKE · 09-16-2016, 12:57 PM

A freshly rebuilt engine should take no more than 30ft-lbs to turn over without the spark plugs installed. If it takes more than that, especially significantly more... something is very wrong.

I wouldn't think a dry seal would make it so the engine would require huge prybars to turn over. The seal should literally rip free before it would take that much force. (of course, we don't exactly know what torque value you are referring to)

My bet, is that if it turned over fine fully assembled on the engine stand, the flywheel, starter, or something is in a bind.

Good Luck!

ps... I see that it seems you got it taken care of. Good Luck!

07-19-2016, 03:42 PM	#21
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,096	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight If you're saying that ALL the main caps were on it, torqued down and the engine turned over fine, then it isn't the bearings, or anything to do with the crank, rods and pistons and most likely flywheel. I think you have the right idea, pull the pan - with it off, validate that everything rotates as it should, then pull the rear rope seal and SOAK it in engine oil (for at least a day), put it back in, make sure it is well seated in the pan groove (use a pipe or big socket and a rubber mallet to form it into the pan groove) and put it back together. You should NOT have to trim the length of it - it should compress on the ends and seal correctly. Sometimes I put a glob of RTV on the ends, but even that should not be necessary for sealing. Last edited by Bored&Stroked; 07-19-2016 at 08:17 PM.

07-19-2016, 07:15 PM	#22
edhd58 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Guston,ky Posts: 653	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight You should NOT have to trim the length of it - it should compress on the ends and seal correctly. Sometimes I put a glob of RTV on the ends, but even that should not be necessary for sealing. Agreed, I had to put my pan on as well and the machine shop said be sure NOT to trim the seal flush (leave it up just a hair(yep he said that)) AND put a small dob of gasket sealer too. My pan gasket lays between the ends of the rope seal and everything together presses to form a leak free seal. There again i was told to spin the assembly as i torqued it and i wouldn't have any problems, which I didn't, but it did get snug turning by hand. with the starter it was a little slow for a few seconds. everything is fine now,

07-20-2016, 03:43 AM	#23
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,765	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight I had a thought about this this morning. It can't be the rope seal (rear main) The seal is retained by the main cap. fitting the pan will not have any effect on it. If the main ncap is correctly torqued, that's it. The pan is not a factor. If it turns ok pan off and is locked with pan on, I would be looking for a foul condition between the pan and oil pump pickup - something may be getting bent and fouling on the crank. I dunno what it is, but in my mind at least, it is not the rear rope seal. The front seal is a one piece so that is not under consideration. I will add a rider to this - if the 8BA pan is different to 59A, around the area of the rear seal, that may make a difference. I'm a 59A guy, never had an 8BA. Mart.

07-20-2016, 05:25 AM	#25
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,765	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight ^^^ Thanks for the clarification. It dawned on me as I was writing that 8BA might be different. I've only messed with the earlier stuff, and French, which are the same as the early ones. Mart.

07-20-2016, 06:09 AM	#26
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Last night I dropped the pan and I am able to turn it with a 1/2" breaker bar. Not easy, but it will turn. I am going to oil the seal and put it back together. I turned it at least 5-6 full turns so I am confident that nothing is hitting or interfering. I built the engine in late February so it is dryer inside than I would like. With the pan off, I almost rolled the block side of the rear main seal out but I was able to get it to go back in. I was not relishing the thought of loosening the crank. While I have the pan off; I want to pull the oil pump, prime it again, put the pan back on, fill it with oil, and put a starter on it. Get it spinning good with the plugs out and build oil pressure. I think it will be OK then.

07-20-2016, 09:18 AM	#27
Jack E/NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,173	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight >>>I want to pull the oil pump, prime it again, put the pan back on, fill it with oil, and put a starter on it. >>> Probably easier to rig a funnel to the pressure sensor hole, and let a quart or three of fresh oil slowly percolate thru the whole system. Prime all my rebuilds similarly, not just flatheads. Jack E/NJ

07-21-2016, 06:55 AM	#28
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,777	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight We have all been through this...doing and re-doing. Please keep us posted. You will get it figured out. Enjoy the adventure!

07-21-2016, 07:24 AM	#29
BABAR40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Palm Harbor, Fl Posts: 137	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight And this too shall pass. Not the most daunting job but it will get rectified. Keep a stiff upper lip and good luck.

07-21-2016, 07:26 AM	#30
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,096	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight If you have a a big 1/2" torque wrench, you should put it on the front nut and record how much torque it takes to turn the engine over - would be very interested to see what number you come back with (for future reference). I have a newly built engine in my shop that has yet to be started - will be happy to test/share the torque number with you. It is a 49-53 and the pan is not on it. You post sure makes me think that it is way too tight - but hard to know by "description". Good luck. D

09-16-2016, 09:46 AM	#35
markdtn Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Chattanooga, TN Posts: 139	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight I wanted to follow up with my progress. I pulled the pan and oiled the rope seal. I poured ATF in each cylinder and started rotating tooth by tooth. After about 2 revolutions it got easier and I could turn it with a breaker bar without extension. A week or so later, I got all the ATF out of the bottom. About 2 weeks ago, I put the pan back on and mounted the starter. Filled it with oil. Last night, I left all the spark plugs out and spun it with the starter until it built oil pressure. Everything seems OK now. I am going to finish up a few knick-knacks and paint it before I dress it out and crank it. Should be in the next few weeks.

09-16-2016, 12:08 PM	#36
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,334	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight I, for one, really appreciate it when the OP takes the time to come back and post the results like this. Thanks, "markdtn". Good luck with your engine!

09-16-2016, 12:39 PM	#37
Bulligen Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Elgin Illinois Posts: 736	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight I will bet it is the dry oil seal! I have even cleaned up the ends of the rope a little to shorten it slightly before I soaked it in oil overnight. Good Luck!

09-16-2016, 12:57 PM	#38
FL&WVMIKE Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Daytona Beach, Fl & Spencer, W. Va, Posts: 4,442	Re: Fleathead Fresh Rebuild very tight A freshly rebuilt engine should take no more than 30ft-lbs to turn over without the spark plugs installed. If it takes more than that, especially significantly more... something is very wrong. I wouldn't think a dry seal would make it so the engine would require huge prybars to turn over. The seal should literally rip free before it would take that much force. (of course, we don't exactly know what torque value you are referring to) My bet, is that if it turned over fine fully assembled on the engine stand, the flywheel, starter, or something is in a bind. Good Luck! ps... I see that it seems you got it taken care of. Good Luck! Last edited by FL&WVMIKE; 09-16-2016 at 01:03 PM.