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Old 12-18-2012, 01:52 PM   #1
Theo
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Default Rear Hubs loose?

Hey guys. Have been driving my model a for a while, and never noticed this until I got all four wheels off the ground last weekend to adjust the brakes. It seems like the rear hubs are loose. I can wobble the wheel side to side. Lug nuts are tight so it seems to be the hub/drum assebly is loose. Is there a way to tighten this, or is this a bearing problem?

thanks!
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:00 PM   #2
Tom Wesenberg
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

Remove the wheels and the brake drums. Wipe the axle taper clean of any oil or grease, repack the bearing in the drum, if it needs it, then reassemble and make the axle nut good and tight, like 100 foot pounds. Make sure the drum doesn't scrape on the backing plate, then install the wheels.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:29 PM   #3
ford3
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

if the axle nut is tight and you still have play it maybe that the race on the axle housing where the rear bearing runs is wore causing play, if not that its either the tapered hole in the drum is worn over sizes, or the taper on the axle is worn and to small to let the drum tighten, if its the drum or axle there is a shim that goes over the axle taper and when the drum is put on it takes up wear on either of those, i have used the shim and it worked good, but i dont put many miles on my A so i cant say how long they will work, they are cheap and might be worth your while to give them a try
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:14 PM   #4
Al 29Tudor
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

I had that problem whe I bought my 29 Tudor. I finally torqued both axle nuts to 125 ft pounds and no more problem
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:37 PM   #5
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

Recently witnessed where a few Model A owners in the recent past have become confused with different axle nut tightening & the difference in torque required for the front axle nut & the rear axle nut.

For example:

I. Tapered Front Wheel Bearings:

A. According to Timken Bearing Co., the tapered front wheel bearings should have about .007" clearance between the tapered front roller bearings and the tapered front bearing races as opposed to a tight fit between same.

B. If one tightens the front wheel axle nuts on the front spindles too much, the tapered front roller bearings cease to roll inside the races, & the front bearing races begin to rotate in the hubs, thus wearing out & ruining the front wheel hubs.

II.. Non-tapered Rear Wheel Bearings:

A. The rear wheel bearings are non-tapered roller bearings; hence, these "bearings" do not require to be tightened.

B. However, with the tapered interior of the rear hub fitting on the tapered axle, if one does not properly tighten the rear axle nut to a minimum of 80 foot pounds, there is not enough friction between the tapered axle & the tapered hub; hence:

1) Almost all of the forward or rearward rotational force from the engine is placed solely on the axle key whereby in a short period of time, the axle's key slot becomes wider than the axle key.

2) This axle keyway widening condition gets worse as time goes on while shifting from in reverse to forward, & vice versa, as well as with sudden engine acceleration.

3) Also, both tapers, the one on the axle & the one inside the hub remain loose when not tightened to specifications, & both tapered areas begin to wear with friction such that after time, the rear wheel hubs get loose & begin to wobble.

4) When tapered axles were new, & tapered hubs were new, & when the rear axle nuts were tightened to specifications, there was enough friction generated between these two (2) tight fitting smooth metal surfaces such that very minimum forces were applied to the axle key & axle keyway while the vehicle was in motion.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 12-18-2012 at 06:42 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

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Ok wound up tightening both of them today. They were very loose! Fixed the Right rear just fine, but once I tightened the left one, I heard alot of scraping. Wound up being a bent backing plate. So took the hub off, came off very easily and hammered it out. Put the hub back on and no scraping but...

Now the car will not move in gear. I can push the clutch in, and put it in gear, then let it out and it doesnt stall, just makes a humming noise. I can roll the car fine in neutral. So then i tried to take the hub off again, and now its stuck on. Will come out partway but not all the way off. Im stumped. Any ideas?
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:12 PM   #7
Bob C
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

Did you leave an axle key out, sounds like the axle shaft is turning in the hub.

Bob
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

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Originally Posted by Bob C View Post
Did you leave an axle key out, sounds like the axle shaft is turning in the hub.

Bob
I left the key where it was on the axle. One thing to note is that I tightened the hub down to 90ftlbs, and when I went to take the hub of the second time it was loose.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

Hope you do not have a broken axle. 80 plus years of twisting can snap the rear axle into two pieces. If it is broken you will have to drop the rear end and replace the axle from inside the banjo.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #10
H. L. Chauvin
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

In just reading your replies, & not seeing what you have, it sounds like:

1. When the car does not move, you may have a broken rear axle; and,

2. The hub comes out part of the way which could mean that the hub is loose on the axle, but the rear brake bands are expanded & are tight in the brake drum; hence, will not allow brake drum removal -- try loosening backing plate square headed brake adjustung bolt & releasing emergency brake to see if hub will come off.

Let us know what you find!

Last edited by H. L. Chauvin; 12-23-2012 at 02:42 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

I pulled it off again, and I wound up seeing my axle key sitting on the bottom of the hub... put it back in, tightened everything up, and now its fine! thanks for all your help guys!
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:54 AM   #12
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

To keep the axle key in place, I always put a little "ding" halfway up the keyway & tap in the key, so the key stays in place. I also set the key 1/4" out past the shoulder of the axle at the threaded end. When the hube slides "home" on the taper, then tap the key flush with the shoulder. And remember, that radiused end of the key goes DOWN in the end of the keyway at the BIG end of the taper. Bill W.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

I'm running 1939 hubs with juice brakes on my 29 sedan and have a concern about the fiber washer that goes behind the axle nut washer. It seems pretty thick and does not crush down in the hole flat. You can see a space between the metal washer and the hub where the fiber washer is. I have tightened down the nut about 100 fps - does this sound right?
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON View Post
To keep the axle key in place, I always put a little "ding" halfway up the keyway & tap in the key, so the key stays in place. I also set the key 1/4" out past the shoulder of the axle at the threaded end. When the hube slides "home" on the taper, then tap the key flush with the shoulder. And remember, that radiused end of the key goes DOWN in the end of the keyway at the BIG end of the taper. Bill W.
That's easy for you to say!

I was with you until the second sentence.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:37 PM   #15
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

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Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo View Post
That's easy for you to say!

I was with you until the second sentence.
Ross, I'm trying,
Sorry I didn't susplain it well. Th 1/4" protrusion is so that I KNOW the key didn't slide up into the shallow upper end of the keyway & cause the drum to WOBBLE. The radiused end of the key is of some help to prevent binding in the shallow end of the keyway. I don't know if all keys have a radius ground on them or not. Bill W.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:48 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

I added a shim last year and I'm trying to visualize what you did. I like idea of peening the keyway to keep the key in place. They do slide back quite easy.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:21 PM   #17
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross/Kzoo View Post
I added a shim last year and I'm trying to visualize what you did. I like idea of peening the keyway to keep the key in place. They do slide back quite easy.
Ross,
Iffin' we had cameras & sound, I could explain it in 2 sentences & 17 hand motions, but we would have to be careful & "IMOBILIZE" THAT MIDDLE DIGIT!! And Ryan/Cob would have to set up a "BEEPER"! Bill W.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

I just went through this with my L.R. wheel of my coupe. Made a cone shim to fit the tapered end of the axle. I trimmed it to fit up to the key. But I didn't like the key that I took out, it was loose and sloppy and I was tempted to "Stake" the keyway to make it a tighter fit. But, Before I started moving metal around,I figured I would start off with the best parts possible. I went out to TSC and bought a piece of 1/4" Keystock. I cut off the required length and fitted it in the keyway where it fit perfectly. and didn't fall out from looseness. The old one was shot. Period!
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:00 PM   #19
BILL WILLIAMSON
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Default Re: Rear Hubs loose?

I don't walk well, once with a sheared axle key, found a rusty large nail beside the road, broke off the head, drove it in the keyway, and saved a 7 mile walk home! WHEW!! (TIP # 371) Bill W.
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