Head identity on '26 sprint?

[sprint]

Howdy!

Can anyone please identify the head on this car? Building a copy of this car and these are the only 2 pics known to exist. Best guesses?

[Layden B]

Not detailed enough to be absolutely definitive. Possibilities:
Roof 8 valve
Frontenac 8 valve
Rajo C
All have 3 exhaust pipes right side and spark plugs on left.

[john hamilton]

Here's a quote from the Model T forum. He says the engine was a Dodge fast 4. He included the same picture you have.

"My grandfather owned this sprint car. It sat, complete, in a scrap yard until the mid 80's. By the time I found that out, and went to get it, the scrap yard was long gone. Now, I want to build it. All I have is this picture and know that it was a T chassis with a supercharged Dodge Fast Four engine. It was completed in 1927 and, according to old newspapers, won several races around Texas. I'm not yet a T head and know zero about T's at this point so, I turn to the experts. What can be learned from this picture and where do I start?"

[Layden B]

The water pipe on left side sloping up to the center of the engine with that 2 bolt casting is so Model T Ford. Same for the valve spring covers on right side, oil pan enclosing the flywheel and the big accessory oil sump.

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by john hamilton

Here's a quote from the Model T forum. He says the engine was a Dodge fast 4. He included the same picture you have.

"My grandfather owned this sprint car. It sat, complete, in a scrap yard until the mid 80's. By the time I found that out, and went to get it, the scrap yard was long gone. Now, I want to build it. All I have is this picture and know that it was a T chassis with a supercharged Dodge Fast Four engine. It was completed in 1927 and, according to old newspapers, won several races around Texas. I'm not yet a T head and know zero about T's at this point so, I turn to the experts. What can be learned from this picture and where do I start?"

john hamilton .................
Let's hope that someone "rescued" this car, when the scrapyard closed, and it still exists.
MIKE

[FL&WVMIKE]

Originally Posted by Layden B

The water pipe on left side sloping up to the center of the engine with that 2 bolt casting is so Model T Ford. Same for the valve spring covers on right side, oil pan enclosing the flywheel and the big accessory oil sump.

Layden B ..........................
The engine, in the race car, could have been changed, several times, in it's lifetime. Who knows ? There are just not enough photos around.
MIKE

[sprint]

Thanks guys. Unfortunately the car was not rescued and was destroyed in the 80's. We have this limited photo record and reliable conversation that it was powered by DB Fast 4. These 2 pictures are circa 1926, which was the year before the Fast 4 came out. McCathren Motors was a Dodge dealership from the early 20's to early 80's. This project is unique to me because it was a family owned car. It's unique to everyone because it was supercharged. So, we are building what is in the picture, before it was repowered to the DB Fast 4.

Where is the supercharger? This new pic of the driver's side of the car doesn't show us much but, the absence of a blower on that side may actually to the answer. Notice that the engine is moved back a good distance from the radiator. This would provide room for a Roots blower in front of the engine, driven off the crankshaft, like the Mercedes setups of the day. Mercedes could just stick theirs out the front of the car because it would clear the front axle. With a lowered T chassis, blower can't get past radiator so, one answer would be to move the engine back. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[Layden B]

Picture of the right side of the car shows a carburetor in the usual position for an overhead valve head. It appears to be a barrel valve type and a Miller at that. Miller carbs have 3 bolts on the cover over the throttle barrel while Winfields have 2 or 4. Carburetors cannot function with pressurized air on their intake so they were usually mounted down in front on the side of a supercharger. Air flow would be thru the carb then thru the supercharger then into the engine. Maybe the Dodge Fast 4 was supercharged but not this T engine.

[Jack Innes]

I think we have pictures of the same car taken at different times in its evolution as a race car. Left side picture looks to have a 4 cylinder DB engine with some sort of unit mounted ahead of the engine that likely incorporates the supercharger and the distributor. Note the position of the distributor way ahead of the engine. This could be driven by the silent chain that drives the starter/generator on the pre-26 DB cars. The pipe leading up to what would be the water inlet on a T actually goes to where the carb. would mount on the stock DB engine. The intake manifold is integral with the block. The supercharger would likely be a pancake type as found on Graham & Auburn cars.

The left car seems to have 2 exhaust pipes which could have each connected to 2 exhaust ports on the DB engine. I would guess that this is not an overhead valve engine.

The right car has 3 exhaust pipes that seem to connect to 3 ports on what looks like an overhead setup. In the gap between the rad & the block it looks like the outline of the previous supercharger unit. The wider tires would lead me to believe that this is a later version of the car. It could be set up as Layden described.

The pictures are of typical pre 1926 DB engines.

[Layden B]

Am going to have to reduce the cylinder heads that meet the requirements. With carb on right side only the C Rajo has 3 tube exhaust on right and spark plugs on left. This engine is in Bill Smith's collection. Head does not match requirements but is similar and the Colombo ( as would a Matco) magneto drive puts the magneto over the water pipe on left side.

[Jack Innes]

Layden, What is this RAJO? I run it in an otherwise stock 14 touring. I do not know the model but it certainly levels out the hills.

[sprint]

Layden, you have to be dead on with the Rojo C head. None others are configed that way with sparks left and 5 ports right.

Jack, great observation of the exhaust pipes. Actually, there are 2 pipes: the center port, cylinders 2 & 3, are on a single pipe all the way back. Cylinders 1 and 4 are joined together into a single pipe so there are only 2 pipes coming out the back of the car.

Both pics were within a few days of each other and by the same photographer. Original pics in the University of Texas Historical Archives. I will go through the whole archive eventually but this photographer has over 14,000 prints and several thousand negatives to work through.

The left pic being a DB engine? I don't know. DB plugs were on top and the pic has plugs on the left side. The trans in both pics is a T. Grandfather started the family Dodge dealership and changing to a bigger displacement Fast 4 would make sense for him but that engine was not available unit a year after the pic. Also, DB Fast 4 distributor is on top.

The supercharger issue is driving me nuts. I'm ready to start this build and this is a major element. The engine is definitely moved back and that is a lot of trouble unless there is a major reason to make more room up front and the only reason for that, as far as I can guess, if to make room for a supercharger. I can't see the supercharger claim being a mistake since the photographer, driver, and owner all knew each other well and were all together for the photos. What looks like a Miller 122 carb on the right would then be pressure relief on the blower pipe. It looks too big to be the flat disk of the carb and, if the 2 top bolts show up so clearly, why not the bottom one? If that flat plate shows up so clearly, why not other parts of the carb and intake horn?

Engine moved back to make room for supercharger up front, pressure relief where carb would normally be. Does that make sense to anyone?