Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model T (1909-1927)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-24-2013, 01:30 PM   #1
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default water in the oil

This winter, I pulled the cylinder head to scrape the carbon. One of my coils went bad last fall, and the number one cylinder was caked with carbon. So I put on a new copper gasket, sprayed with sealer, and torqued the bolts to 55 ft/lbs following a tighten sequence chart I found. After about a week I re-torqued the bolts, and then filled the radiator with water and an antirust additive (not antifreeze). The car was indoors all winter, so I never had a chance to start it- until today that is. It was hard starting her. But after I drained some gas out of the sediment bowl and carb (I think some water had condensed in there, I finally got it started after about a half hour of cranking it. After it kicked over and was running pretty nicely. I was going to let it warm up then shut it down to re-torque the bolts again. Well, after about two minutes, I see this grayish liquid oozing out between the crankcase and block. I shut her down right away. I checked the radiator, and the water was way down. I checked the torque on the bolts, and they had loosened up a little- maybe they were at 45 ft/lbs. Would this be loose enough to let the water leak by the head gasket so completely? I had no problems with water in the oil at the end of last season. In addition to pulling the head this winter, I had the hogs head off to rebuild the pedals. Any other ideas beside the head gasket leaking for the water getting in the oil?

P.S. So I drained the oil, re-torqued the head bolts to 55, and refilled the radiator. Sure enough, I can see water weeping past the gasket behind cylinder 4. Crap. Like I said- no problems with loosing water last year, so that new gasket must be bad. Are there any more reliable head gaskets beside the copper clad that you guys have had experience with?

Last edited by Will N; 03-24-2013 at 01:53 PM.
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #2
Doug Money
Senior Member
 
Doug Money's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 350
Default Re: water in the oil

Leaks as this are ususally caused by the surfaces not being true or error in installing. Sometimes one end of the head is lowered first causing the gasket to crush in a small area and then when the head installation is finished, it leaks. Also, did you spray the gasket with copper sealer before installation? Just a few ideas for you.
Doug Money is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 03-24-2013, 03:28 PM   #3
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: water in the oil

Yes, I did spray the gasket with copper sealer. I used two studs to locate the head gasket and head as I lowered the head to the block (which I later removed and replaced with the bolts. I was careful to lower the head slowly and evenly. Perhaps the gasket had a dent or scratch that I didn't see. Anyway.... I've rinsed out the crankcase by filling it with kerosene- cranking it over vigorously to sling it all around, then drained it. Then I filled it with a gallon of alcohol, which absorbs water, and cranked it around and drained that. Then I refilled it with another gallon of clean kerosene to rinse out the alcohol. After I get the head reinstalled with a new gasket (that I will inspect very closely!) I"ll fill it with oil, let it run a few minutes to heat up somewhat, and I'll then change that oil right away.
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 04:30 PM   #4
Farmallcub49
Senior Member
 
Farmallcub49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St Joseph,MN
Posts: 278
Default Re: water in the oil

Did you install the gasket correctly, right side up? Was it stored inside heated? Cracked head? Did you warm it up and then re-torque it last fall?
__________________
'OSO HANDY RESTORATIONS
Specializing in Model T Fords
320-293-1953
Farmallcub49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 04:48 PM   #5
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: water in the oil

I installed the copper gasket with the seam side up. By seam side, I mean the side where the copper rolls around the the bore opening in the gasket. Smooth side against deck, seamed side against head. The car was in my basement all winter, and it stayed around 60 degrees down there the whole time. The head wasn't cracked last fall, before I removed it, but I'll check it out when I remove it now. I didn't warm it up and re-torque in the fall, as the car was in my basement and starting it would have filled the place with fumes. Today was the first opportunity I had to start it.
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 05:32 PM   #6
visionary
Senior Member
 
visionary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Amherst NY
Posts: 108
Default Re: water in the oil

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
If you havn't already done so i would have the head surfaced at a machine shop, it's pretty cheap insurance.

I know most guys use the copper gaskets that are folded over very succesfully, but while putting my motor together i didn't feel comfortable with it and ended up using the composit one with the silicone beads.
visionary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 05:58 PM   #7
Jack Innes
Senior Member
 
Jack Innes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Brooklin, Ontario
Posts: 704
Default Re: water in the oil

Did you clean out the bolt holes & run a tap through them?

Perhaps you torqued the rear bolts mostly against the bottom of the hole & not the head.
__________________
Jack Innes, Brooklin, Ontario
Jack Innes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 06:45 PM   #8
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: water in the oil

I did tap the bolt holes and ran a die on the bolts. I cleaned out the holes thoroughly, and ran the bolts down to the bottom with the head off to check the height of the bolts when bottomed out vs. the height of the head (learned that trick from reading posts on this site!) Plenty of clearance- the bolts are not bottomed out.

I ordered the silicone type cylinder head gasket this time, and I'll probably have the head surfaced before reinstalling it.
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 11:18 PM   #9
redmodelt
Senior Member
 
redmodelt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,339
Default Re: water in the oil

With an engine having 45 to 55 LBS compression, putting 55 LBS torque on the bolts really over kill. 45 to maybe 50 should be good enough. The early blocks did not have as good of metallurgy as the later ones, off hand ones before about 1916 or there about.
Try putting the bolts in with only the Ford wrench, get em tight, then check what the reading is with a torque wrench, beam type might work best. Bet you find the reading is in about that range.
redmodelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 10:14 AM   #10
CharlieB
Senior Member
 
CharlieB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toms River N.J.
Posts: 515
Default Re: water in the oil

Well it's all been said: have it checked for flatness/cracks. I'd use another gasket. The only thing not mentioned was did you follow a sequence when tightening the bolts? You can't do one end and work to the other it's got to be done in a pattern and don't go to the final torque spec when first tightening. Get 'em all to say 30 or 35 then go 'round again a bit more then go to final spec. There's no place for water to enter the oil except from a crack up top or a bad head or gasket. Agree 45/50 lbs. final.
CharlieB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 10:02 PM   #11
dumb person
Senior Member
 
dumb person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: South pacific island
Posts: 1,724
Default Re: water in the oil

Did you take the water inlet off when working on it in the past? i find water gets in through the valve chamber that way if i am careless.
__________________
<Link> This is how we roll<Link>

"I'm Convinced that no one really reads posts anymore; they just fabricate what they think the post says then ramble on about red herrings."--Bob
Outcasts rules of old cars
#1 Fun is imperative, mainstream is overrated
#2 If they think it is impossible, prove them wrong
#3 If the science says it impossible you are not being creative enough.
#4 No shame in recreating something you never had
#5 If it were not for the law & physics you would be unstoppable
dumb person is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 07:25 AM   #12
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: water in the oil

By inlet, do you mean the one coming out of the head, or the one going into the side of the block? I would call the one going into the side of the block the inlet, and the one at the front of the head the outlet. I did remove the outlet when I removed the head, and I removed the inlet a couple of years ago when I first got the car and was changing the radiator hoses. I did not remove the manifolds when I removed and replace the head and head gasket. How would water make it's way to the valve chamber?
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:23 AM   #13
OLDTGUY
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Riverside NJ
Posts: 48
Default Re: water in the oil

Will,
I have found that when working with the silicone type gaskets, both surfaces must be perfect. IMO the copper gaskets are a little more "forgiving". It sounds like you have hit everything right on the money. If the deck on the block is pitted at the front and rear water jacket, I've used a thin coat of #1 Permatex in the pitted area's. This will help seal these area's. Torque head in a circular pattern starting from the middle head bolt. Hope this helps.
JJ
OLDTGUY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 03:15 PM   #14
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: water in the oil

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Should I be using thread sealant on the bolt threads, or will this just gum up the torque readings?
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 08:46 AM   #15
OLDTGUY
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Riverside NJ
Posts: 48
Default Re: water in the oil

Will,
I've never used sealant on the threads. I prefer to use a light oil on the threads, although there's pro and cons to this, everyone has they're own method of work.
I also like to retorque at least 4 times to make sure the bolts settle out and stop stetching.
JJ
OLDTGUY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 09:15 AM   #16
yachtsmanbill
Senior Member
 
yachtsmanbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Two Rivers, Wi.
Posts: 1,406
Default Re: water in the oil

Thread sealant aka permatex is really only needed when a bolt hole is open to the water jacket. I always tap the holes, and wire wheel the bolts, then apply a thin film of copper never sieze to the gasket (both sides) and the bolts. I also do the paper gaskets... glue them on to a clean surface, then some neversieze on the one face. Stuff always comes apart and can be re-used without destroying the gasket.
All the joints do need to be clean and flat. Always pull the head down from the center out. A warped head will pull flat. HEAVY corrosion around a water jacket can be addressed with JB weld.
Theres also the subject of anaerobic sealants. Works like locktite only way thicker. Itll actually make a plastic film on the gasket surface where any bad imperfections are to be found. ws

CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW:

http://www.permatex.com/products/pro...lange-sealants







Freshly decked block by bluing and draw filing. The original factory decking machining marks actually showed up! Last pic shows the begining of the seat reaming. Im way up in northern Wisconsin and dont have the luxury of "dropping" the stuff off at the machine shop, so I do it like farmer Fred wouldve done in 1930. Ive also cleaned heads by dragging them in a figure 8 on the concrete sidewalk... what ever works, eh?
__________________
" Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"
yachtsmanbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 10:32 AM   #17
Will N
Senior Member
 
Will N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,096
Default Re: water in the oil

Can I check the flatness of the head by bluing it, and laying it on some paper that is stretched out on a large pane of glass? The glass is flat, and if the bluing transfers evenly from the head to the paper, it will tell me if the head is flat.
Will N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 11:03 AM   #18
Ed in Maine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Washington Cty., ME or Flagler Cty., FL
Posts: 1,106
Default Re: water in the oil

Will, I feel your pain. I have had the cylinder head off twice on my 1914 and it still has low compression and is hard to start. Valves are not the problem, I closely inspected each one and lapped them just to be sure and installed new springs. Sometimes I can't start it and other times it goes and surprises me. This spring I will use all the suggestions above, mill the head and install helicoils in all the holes. I cannot get to 45 ft-lbs in some of the holes and many feel spongy on the torque wrench. Good luck with your problems. Ed
Ed in Maine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 12:57 PM   #19
yachtsmanbill
Senior Member
 
yachtsmanbill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Two Rivers, Wi.
Posts: 1,406
Default Re: water in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will N View Post
Can I check the flatness of the head by bluing it, and laying it on some paper that is stretched out on a large pane of glass? The glass is flat, and if the bluing transfers evenly from the head to the paper, it will tell me if the head is flat.

Actually, the best way to check it is to use a machinists' straight edge. Check it end to end, side to side, and corner to corner. In IDEALVILLE, there should be (by the book) less than .002" gap anywhere with a feeler gage, or, use a flashlight at the joint for escaping light. In PLEASANTVILLE, anything better and you wouldnt need a gasket! You can lap the joints like we did on steam turbines... try lapping a 100 ton turbine shell (hint: its done with come alongs).
I would blue the face of the head and the block with spray Dyechem and lightly drag a file across it. Itll show high by the bolt holes and edges which is where the gasket comes into play. Ive seen several layers of aluminum foil used when a gasket wasnt available. I also like to "bump" each hole with a 45 degree countersink by about 1/16". JMHO...
Accuracy versus close is all relevant. How flat is that glass REALLY? How flat is the glass sitting on a cast iron table saw with some paint overspray on the surface? Glass will flex BTW. Now if you know a machine shop with a large granite surface block, you can really get it close to nuts.
Its a Model T, so think like an old time farmer back in the day. In regards to the earlier Ts, Ive heard that the cast iron was softer and indeed would pull the threads out with the bolts. Helicoils or Keenserts are the method to correct that one. ws



This is a Starrett block. All those micrometers and gages have to start somewhere!
__________________
" Warning; the following contains content that the anal retentive may find offensive - please skip on to the next posting!"
yachtsmanbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 12:58 PM   #20
FlatheadTed
Senior Member
 
FlatheadTed's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auckland
Posts: 4,691
Send a message via AIM to FlatheadTed
Default Re: water in the oil

Heres a man with a real feel for engneering ,I like these farmer fixs .Well done Wi Man .
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtsmanbill View Post
Thread sealant aka permatex is really only needed when a bolt hole is open to the water jacket. I always tap the holes, and wire wheel the bolts, then apply a thin film of copper never sieze to the gasket (both sides) and the bolts. I also do the paper gaskets... glue them on to a clean surface, then some neversieze on the one face. Stuff always comes apart and can be re-used without destroying the gasket.
All the joints do need to be clean and flat. Always pull the head down from the center out. A warped head will pull flat. HEAVY corrosion around a water jacket can be addressed with JB weld.
Theres also the subject of anaerobic sealants. Works like locktite only way thicker. Itll actually make a plastic film on the gasket surface where any bad imperfections are to be found. ws

CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW:

http://www.permatex.com/products/pro...lange-sealants







Freshly decked block by bluing and draw filing. The original factory decking machining marks actually showed up! Last pic shows the begining of the seat reaming. Im way up in northern Wisconsin and dont have the luxury of "dropping" the stuff off at the machine shop, so I do it like farmer Fred wouldve done in 1930. Ive also cleaned heads by dragging them in a figure 8 on the concrete sidewalk... what ever works, eh?
__________________
http://www.flatheadted.com


Flathead Ted brake Floaters ,
FlatheadTed is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:41 AM.