Serial number

[James Rogers]

I have had a couple of discussions lately about the engine number and the frame number.Does anyone have any documentation showing that the engine number was stamped on the frame and when? Why do some frames not show a number where it should and the frame is smooth and un-damaged? Brent and I discussed this and came to no rock solid conclusions. If the frames were stamped and in a specific location, why are some bare while some are in other places and/or in multiples? If we are to accept that the number is supposed to be there and there is a delay of 1-3 months from the engine build date of the motor, where is it documented? Inquiring minds (at least mine) want to know. Marco .

[1931 flamingo]

Maybe not all assemblers were as dedicated as henry would have liked them?? Some may have had a grudge against foreman, etc. And who was going to ck by pulling body to see if it had been stamped, when ID # was visible on the block. Just my thoughts.
Paul in CT

[RonC]

I have a 1931 frame with a 1932 engine date using the old style number stamps

[RonC]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I have had a couple of discussions lately about the engine number and the frame number.Does anyone have any documentation showing that the engine number was stamped on the frame and when? Why do some frames not show a number where it should and the frame is smooth and un-damaged? Brent and I discussed this and came to no rock solid conclusions. If the frames were stamped and in a specific location, why are some bare while some are in other places and/or in multiples? If we are to accept that the number is supposed to be there and there is a delay of 1-3 months from the engine build date of the motor, where is it documented? Inquiring minds (at least mine) want to know. Marco .

\

From Ford dealer invoices for the delay. Could be days during busy sales months to a year if the engine was pulled off line for repairs.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by RonC

\

From Ford dealer invoices for the delay. Could be days during busy sales months to a year if the engine was pulled off line for repairs.

I agree. I have a Nov 30 engine number and a sept body 68C. What I want to see is documentation (not guesses or here say) stating the engine number was stamped on the frame and the recommended location. This is required in fine point judging so where is the proof the judges use for reference? I figure if I have to prove the instances of a difference with documentation to get a variance, why shouldn't this be documented. Do we just accept it as the gospel without question because someone just figured it was that way? If this is so then, why not accept that the frame never got stamped or that the lag from foundry to frame could have been much longer without reason? There certainly have been enough instances of these to warrant an explanation.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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I'm not so sure it is from Dealer invoices as that does not substantiate "when" it was assembled. That would only validate which day it was sold.

In reality, that documentation probably came from factory Foreman's log books, and from inspecting documenting low-mileage, unmolested original Model A's. I know some folks 'buy-in' on the theory that Ford just used up old parts going down the assy. line until they were gone before he had them install a new version, --or those 'wives-tales' where one day Henry might pull someone out of the engine shop and have that person pinstriping bodies that day because he was short on pinstripers. The more I know about the workings of Ford Mtr. Co., the more I realize that is total BS.



Now here comes a lengthy opinion! James and I were talking about this very thing recently, and when you look at old copies of employee time cards and foreman cards, you realize that each employee had a certain task and an expected quota for that shift. For example, when an internal order for something was given, for example if they called for 5,000 A-3010 front axle beams to be made at the Forging Plant, the foundry manager didn't just choose some "out-of-the-sky" quota number for that shift to make based on his mood. In reality, Ford's scheduling managers knew exactly how many items they could make and on many papers I have seen gave the seconds of time alloted for each piece. Those same schedulers knew to give an order for 10,000 A-3030 to be poured, 5,000 A-3405's, 10,000 A-3105's, 5,000 sets of A-3115, and an equal number of A-3130's & A-3131's to be poured. THEN, the Machine shop had to machine each of those pieces, --which was not the only items the Machine Shop was responsible for. Therefore, the Foreman didn't just walk into his area and choose some random item for his men to work on that day. If this would have been the way they operated, there is no way each of the branches (factories) could have cranked out the volume of vehicles that they did. I take the belief that each area knew exactly how long it was supposed to take, and knew exactly which items they had to manufacture based on internal orders given by Ford's management (schedulers).

This brings me to the next part for you to contemplate. For those who have looked at (i.e.: studied) original unmolested Model A's will be very quick to tell you that gross mistakes just didn't happen. Think about it, we all know that bodystyles were random as they came down the assy. line. Think about how easy it would have been to get a 7 leaf (Roadster) rear spring under a chassis that a Fordor Sedan was set on, --or visa-versa. The same for side-mounted spares. The welled fender(s) & aprons were assembled together several floors up and then were placed on the conveyer to arrive in cue with a frame that had the side mount(s) already riveted on. Think about the body for that specific chassis was being prepped in yet another separate work area, and plugs were placed in the rear of the body in lieu of a spare tire carrier because of the side-mount. Consider the logistics in all of this to get it done correctly! Also think about headlamp assemblies as they were sent down the line since it was critical if they were to be installed on a body with or without cowl lamps. Then think about the wiring harness and headlight switch that was already installed on the chassis. Again, when you consider this was all done without a computer system, it goes to show that "dedication" was not a problem for long in his organization. Human error did sometimes play into the equasion but when you consider all of the scenarios of possible malfunctions that could have easily happened during each shift, it is evidenced by their productivity and subsequent inspections of untampered-with cars that the percentages of errors was very nill.


One other topic that I feel one needs to think through is what all happened in the entire process prior to that Model A heading out the factory door. The depth of this is almost uncomprehendible when you truly think each step through. Since I mentioned the front axle assy. above, lets use that as an example. Where did the raw iron come from? How did it get to Ford's foundry? Who made the moulds for each of those pieces? Who told the pattern maker what the axle pieces were suppose to look like, or what to make it out of? Where did the foundry get their power and/or the supplies (sand, gloves, tongs, carts, racks, etc.) necessary to make those axle pieces? Once the pieces had been poured, how did they get each piece from the foundry to Ford's Machine shop? Who made the machines & fixtures to do the machining with? Who made the tooling to do the machining with? Who serviced those Mills & Lathes they used? What did they do with the scrap metal that was removed from the pieces, ...and how did they actually dispose of it? Who did the Q/C on each piece? Once each individual piece was machined, how did it physically get moved into inventory? Where did it get moved to so that it could be found when it was time to be used? My point is that we take an axle assy. for granted that it was supposed to be slid under the front crossmember but the behind the scenes crew was even more daunting than the assembly line worker. Somebody had to clean up, somebody had to work on the conveyor systems and keep them maintenenced. Somebody had to make sure the iron ore was being ordered and Ford's ships were getting it delivered on time, and somebody had to be changing light bulbs and cleaning up the bathrooms all these employees were using! Imagine the amount of labor it took for Human Resources to keep up with employee payroll! That don't even count keeping up with employee payroll deducts where Ford loaned his employees money for their house or car.

I am also of the belief that Henry was real big on training each of his employees. I take this assumption because we know he was a huge promotor of his trade schools, colleges, and even training of his dealer network employees (mechanics, salesmen, etc.) Therefore I feel certain with the few errors we have found on original Model A's, each area of the manufacturing had Foreman that saw that each employee was trained to do their specific task. That is why I do not "buy into" the belief that employees only stamped frames intermittantly with the corresponding engine number. If Ford instructed that process to be done, you can bet somebody's butt was in jeopardy if it wasn't getting done. I have yet to see a really nice frame that was sans a VIN. While I do not know the process, I do understand there is a method where the metal can be "x-rayed" to determine whether the metal's molecules have been disturbed such as would happen with a metal stamp. I would want to know this process had been done on all of these frames we are saying was never stamped before I would change my opinion mainly because it does not seem believable to me that he allowed this to be ommitted.

.

[marc hildebrant]

Brent,

Your analysis makes perfect sense. I would only add, that years of perfecting the Model T production installed a manufacturing "machine" at the Ford plant that was the Best In the World for the type of car that was the T and the A.

Ford's method was perfect for this type of car.

Marc

[Bruce Lancaster]

If you look at the various Henry Ford Trade School books, or at the Ford industries book (the good ones of those are Model T period, but really do indicate the complexity and organizational depth of the system) you really begin to see the shape of a HUGE and finely tuned system.
Ford also made much of his own machinery and tooling to accomplish this, because he largely invented the process as necessary, right down to his own grades of steel...the "AA" or "EE" on Brent's axle. The drawings in the books are largely of things we rarely even think of...making more steel cores, dies, etc. We always think about the cars...but a very large part of the work, probably the majority, went into the building of the system.

So...Oh my Goodness! Here comes ANOTHER car down the line. Chuck, we don't have time to stamp the serial on that last one there, so just finish your coffee, then go out behind the building and see if you can find another packing crate and saw it into a floorboard!

[Chris Haynes]

My frame number is *AA3334675* making it a May 1930 engine. This is in an Early 1930. The last of the Early 1930's were built in June 1930. There was certainly no three month delay getting this engine into a chassis.

[RonC]

We know Ford did stamp the engine number on the frames. We can assume it was done for a reason. It's reported that Canadian frames did not receive engine numbering on the frame. Apparently the reason for doing so in the USA did not exist in Canada?

Why american made frames may exist without numbering is anyones guess without documentation. Maybe the frames were replaced at some point??

Brent great analysis!

[theHIGHLANDER]

In 1930 there were 79,456 more engines than cars built. 69,278 more engines in 29, 60,912 in 28. According to "The Model A Ford As Henry Built It" by DeAngelis, Sorenson and Henry, there were always a number of engines in "float" from the Rouge plant and through 45 different assembly plants in North America and Europe. Engines taken from Rouge stockpiles and in "float" for weeks would have lower serial numbers than engines rec'd at the same plant weeks earlier. Up until August 1929, the build date was stamped on the lower left corner of the gas tank panel under the hood.

I have seen original frames that had the number stamped ahead of the number 1 body bolt on the left top rail. Maybe a total of 3, but I've seen that. Brent makes very good and correct points regarding the well-oiled machine that was Ford production, but there were humans doing the work. While we pine away about "the good ol days", people were just as frail, just as hearty, just as happy and angry as we are today. The subject matter may have been different, but they're still people and as prone to missing a target as anyone.

Since the number was stamped during engine to frame install, that easily explains a May engine in a possible July car. This would be easier to sort out with known intro dates of specific things. We know that it was some time in May 31 that the wide box for the CCPU was introduced into production. If an example had a March engine in it, and the same ID number on the frame, I'd expect the number to be near the end of March production known numbers. They end at 4520831, so that wide box truck might have something like 4519XXX. Does that make sense? The other ticket to date/ID would be in components like steering boxes or cutout covers, and many other things that were running upgrades. Still, old stock was used up in every case. Inventory didn't get scrapped in favor of the newer part unless, like today, it was a safety issue. As far as where the scrap went, the ore shipments, outsources, Ford had all of his own systems in place and could be considered one of the 1st and most effective recyclers in the industry. There was even a program to directly accept worn out Fords as raw material. All of that is archived information that's easily found.

Might not be the answer we're seeking here, but it's some level of insight.

[MBI Houston]

Where is Pluck when you need him?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by theHIGHLANDER

In 1930 there were 79,456 more engines than cars built. 69,278 more engines in 29, 60,912 in 28. According to "The Model A Ford As Henry Built It" by DeAngelis, Sorenson and Henry, there were always a number of engines in "float" from the Rouge plant and through 45 different assembly plants in North America and Europe. Engines taken from Rouge stockpiles and in "float" for weeks would have lower serial numbers than engines rec'd at the same plant weeks earlier. Up until August 1929, the build date was stamped on the lower left corner of the gas tank panel under the hood.

I have seen original frames that had the number stamped ahead of the number 1 body bolt on the left top rail. Maybe a total of 3, but I've seen that. Brent makes very good and correct points regarding the well-oiled machine that was Ford production, but there were humans doing the work. While we pine away about "the good ol days", people were just as frail, just as hearty, just as happy and angry as we are today. The subject matter may have been different, but they're still people and as prone to missing a target as anyone.

Since the number was stamped during engine to frame install, that easily explains a May engine in a possible July car. This would be easier to sort out with known intro dates of specific things. We know that it was some time in May 31 that the wide box for the CCPU was introduced into production. If an example had a March engine in it, and the same ID number on the frame, I'd expect the number to be near the end of March production known numbers. They end at 4520831, so that wide box truck might have something like 4519XXX. Does that make sense? The other ticket to date/ID would be in components like steering boxes or cutout covers, and many other things that were running upgrades. Still, old stock was used up in every case. Inventory didn't get scrapped in favor of the newer part unless, like today, it was a safety issue. As far as where the scrap went, the ore shipments, outsources, Ford had all of his own systems in place and could be considered one of the 1st and most effective recyclers in the industry. There was even a program to directly accept worn out Fords as raw material. All of that is archived information that's easily found.

Might not be the answer we're seeking here, but it's some level of insight.

Are you sure that was the build date of the car, ...or manufacture date of the gas tank?

I am of the opinion that was when the tank was manufactured and tested. I actually have the stencils for that font and have re-stamped tanks myself, and I can unequivocally tell you that stamping those numbers without the backside laying on something solid will not create the stamp imprint like we see on original tanks. Therefore doing it on the assy. line when the body touched the chassis would have been a feat! Also, the body had already been painted and then on to be trimmed prior to being "built" on the assembly line. The paint had dried and therefore was done days ahead. Those little numbers always had paint in there and I am of the opinion that if that number was stamped when the car was built, then the paint would have chipped out where the stamp's metal depression was made. Therefore those firewall dates mean very little to me because time of year, and whether the bodystyle was a Ford-built or outside vendor built body factors into the date vs. chassis number.

Two other points was that in the case of James' engine, I am of the opinion that either one of two possibilities happened. Engines that were shipped from Rouge to the branches were loaded into train cars. It is possible that they were loaded into the car in a sequential number, and unloaded at the branch in a quasi-reverse order however what happens if they were not loaded into the train car in a proper sequential order? Then factor in the possibility that a new shipment of engines arrived at that branch a few months later and the present stock of existing engines (which his engine was in) were not rotated into sequence thus causing it to take longer than expected to put his car's engine into a chassis. Because of this, looking at surrounding components may not give an accurate tell on the date of the engine.
The other possibility would have been that something tragic happened to the engine between the time it was stamped and the time it was placed into a chassis. Maybe it was returned to Rouge for repairs? Tragic might be defined as it was dropped, misplaced, shipped incorrectly, was knocking, etc. I personally tend to align my beliefs with the first scenario in his car. Sadly while his 68C is a super nice three-owner car, it honestly wasn't an unmolested car when he got it.

[James Rogers]

This is not quite what I asked in the beginning but is somewhat relevant, this means the 3 month "suggestion" does not apply in all cases, correct?

[Blessyouboys]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

This is not quite what I asked in the beginning but is somewhat relevant, this means the 3 month "suggestion" does not apply in all cases, correct?

I think you're correct, James.

I'm pretty sure the 3 month rule is strictly for judging and does not have an origin in Ford's manufacturing/assembly processes.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

This is not quite what I asked in the beginning but is somewhat relevant, this means the 3 month "suggestion" does not apply in all cases, correct?

Well Yes, --and No. The only time this truly becomes an issue is during adjudication. The "3 month allowance" is suggested as guidance for the Judge to make his/her decision regarding authenticity of the component as it relates to the vehicle. In the case of your car, if you were to enter it into Fine-point Judging, there is a process that you would need to go through requesting a variance where proper documentation is submitted to the J/S Committee, and they would make a decision whether to grant it or deny it. Documentation could be in the form of the frame showing the unaltered number on the frame that had the #6 mounting blocks with original rivets. This could also corroborate that frame if you had the original title issued in 1931 that shows the vehicle and the earlier VIN because we know a November engine (even with a 3 month allowance) would generally not have been installed in a frame that had the #6 mounts or even the holes drilled in the rails for the mounts.

With regard to your other question, Tim is just like many of us in that we seemingly understand how the process was done (stamping of the frame with the corresponding engine number) however for me it is just hearsay since I don't know where I read it, ...and we don't know how the author substantiated that procedure. Maybe it was written in Foreman's logs or instructions? Maybe it was seen in multiple factory photographs and assumed that was the accepted protocol?? If Marco does not know specifically, I would venture a guess the next one to ask with be George DeAngeles and see if he knows where that info can be found.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

.

.....one other point to make during the Judging process with this scenario. When the vehicle is registered for a MARC/MAFCA show, on the application sheet, the car owner tells the Chief Judge the date the car is built to, and on each judging sheet, that date is recorded. To them they do not care if you tell them it is a January, 1928 build date yet it is an authentic 1931 vehicle. The Judges are going to score your vehicle using what was authentic for a Jan. 1928 vehicle. Naturally your 1931 vehicle's score will reflect poorly because of this.

Let's just assume your 68C Cabriolet was entered into Judging and you state that it was restored to a July 1931 build. During the entire process, the only Judge(s) that will look at the VIN will be the Area 1 judges, and they are going to inspect the number and make sure it coincides within the date you stated the car was built in. As long as that number is within 3 months prior to the date you stated, then it receives no deductions. None of the other judges in the 22 areas care what number is stamped on the block or the frame as they are only using the date you submitted as the basis for determining authenticity.

So back to the engine date. In Area 1, Section C there is a line item worth 10 points total (out of 5,000 points) where the Judge is supposed to evaluate the following items; Block, Color, Correct date & numbers. The maximum allowable deduction on that entire line is 10 points, and realistically if you have a Model A engine block and it is painted the correct color, you probably will only receive a 5 point deduction for the engine date, ...which reverts to ½ a point deduct out of the 500 point max score. Therefore if your car would have scored 424 with the correct number, yet with the incorrect engine date it scored 423.5, then the score would round up to 424. When you think about it in that perspective, in the grand scheme of fine-point judging it really ain't no big deal if you have the wrong engine date for the vehicle.

..

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by MBI Houston

Where is Pluck when you need him?

Having fun????

[theHIGHLANDER]

Good call. Sometimes I think the whole "numbers match" gig is like a cold virus picked up from musclecar people. Still, it's nice to know as many particulars as we can about our cars. I have a 41 Packard Buisness Cpe, a 160 and well optioned. In all my years in the craft, having owned some pretty serious cars in the past, it's the only one that I've ever wanted to know it's full history. It didn't leave the Pittsburg, PA region until I got it. Sadly, the PA DOT lost most of the old records in a flood in the 70s. But, it was delivered on 12-24-40 and it was like $500 more than a comparable Cadillac. Who would buy a single seat high dollar car like that?

Just sayin...

[d.j. moordigian]

OK......the engine doesn't match the car date/month/year,...better yet, say the
engine is 2 weeks after the frame date and in the next month. You are also working
on parts for the car that is up to 2 months before the frame number. ( boy, am I
getting a headache )
When you goto show the car, with a "variance" stating it is not a number matching
car....do you loose points? How the HELL does this/that work?

One last question, are all fine point cars number matching?

Dudley....working on my taxes...