Wesenberg EVR- voltage cycling problem

[Barry in St.Paul]

hi guys,
Have any of you with Tom Wesenberg EVRs had problems with the charge "cycling" from nothing to full charge and back again? If so, were you able to solve the problem?

I had posted earlier about problems with my generator cycling, (is 'all or nothing', no charge for several miles, then full charge for several miles...). And how I was going to revert back from my diode to an original style cutout to see if that fixed it. A local club member directed me to dear sorely-missed Tom's instructions in an old post, to "snip the little blue wire" on the EVR for use with a diode cutout. So, I decided to do that. To my surprise, the little blue wire is already cut!!!

I shouldn't be surprised, Tom installed the EWR for me 13 years ago, and I must have had the diode cutout then. I DID ask him about this cycling issue then (at completion of my restoration), and he assumed it must be because I was using an Optima battery. Recently I switched back to a std battery and still had the problem, thus 'finally time to do something about it'. Now I don't have any idea what to do. I thought about soldering the wire back together and trying a std cutout.... but if the EVR doesn't work as intended now with wire snipped +diode (per Tom's design), why would it be any different with a regular cutout? Thinking I may have to live with the cycling (issue because short drives ending on "no charge" means "low battery voltage" next time I start it). OR, put the 3rd brush back in :-( Any ideas?? Thanks!

[nkaminar]

I don't know anything about Tom's electronic voltage regulator but I do have a solution. Many many years ago it was common to put a 6 volt mechanical voltage regulator on a Model A generator. The 6 volt voltage regulators were common back then. The voltage regulators included a cutout and a solenoid to regulate the current to the field windings to control the output voltage and over current. The field windings were disconnected from the third brush and run to the regulator F (FLD) terminal. A wire was run from the generator terminal to the G (ARM) terminal on the regulator and a wire was run from the B (BAT) terminal to the battery through the junction box on the firewall. The regulator was hidden under the car or mounted on the firewall if you did not care if anyone knew.

See https://store.alternatorparts.com/81...enerators.aspx

[katy]

Does anyone have a schematic of Tom Wesenberg's EVR?

[rotorwrench]

Like most folks that fabricate electronic components like this, their design is a proprietary information that they can pick and choose who has access to it. John Reagan and Tom Wesenberg plus a few others made their units to sell for profit so they were and are also responsible for the function of same and any implied warranty. A person can see why they might not make their design public information.

Tom's unit had a diode to protect it from reverse current but some folks wanted to use either a cut out or a diode in the cut out can. John Reagan's unit was in the diode can along with his own diode but the Fun Projects chip became obsolete so it is no longer produced by the folks that bought out his design. His unit still used the 3rd brush but it had to be current output adjusted to his specs for it to function properly.

If a person tries to reverse engineer this stuff, they may run into the same problem of obsolescence. Electronics repair folks have to have the information on what new electrical component to replace any obsolete stuff they might run up against in older designs. If one person can make one then so can another as long as they have a good idea how to control voltage output and current for a 3-brush generator.

James Peterson is another fellow associated with 3-brush controllers. His is similar to Tom's unit but I don't know if he still makes them. His info is on Vince's model A & B Ford Garage site.

[ALJ]

Originally Posted by nkaminar

I don't know anything about Tom's electronic voltage regulator but I do have a solution. Many many years ago it was common to put a 6 volt mechanical voltage regulator on a Model A generator. The 6 volt voltage regulators were common back then. The voltage regulators included a cutout and a solenoid to regulate the current to the field windings to control the output voltage and over current. The field windings were disconnected from the third brush and run to the regulator F (FLD) terminal. A wire was run from the generator terminal to the G (ARM) terminal on the regulator and a wire was run from the B (BAT) terminal to the battery through the junction box on the firewall. The regulator was hidden under the car or mounted on the firewall if you did not care if anyone knew.

See https://store.alternatorparts.com/81...enerators.aspx

I want to put a mechanical voltage regulator on my car as you describe in your post. What would you suggest as the best way to run the wire from the 3 rd brush out of the generator?

[al's28/33]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I have had one of Tom's EVR units on my car for about 10-12 years and the AMP gauge needle is as steady as ever at about 3 amps. I had him restore three powerhouse generators, one is a 3 brush and the other two are 5 brush. I have a standard group one 6-volt battery. He was quite a knowledgeable man who was very honest to share his craft. He has thousands of posts and pictures here on fordbarn regarding Model "A" electrical queries.

[Bob Johnson]

There is information on the Fun Projects regulator and other regulators on the web site https://www.cool386.com/regulator/regulator.html It is for the Model T with 12v Neg ground. But there is information on Pos ground.


Bob

[nkaminar]

ALj, It is really up to you as to how to run the wire. Without modifying the generator you could drill a hole in the cover. Use a grommet or run the wire through a small rubber or plastic tube where it exits the cover to keep it from abrading. Or you could just leave the cover off.

[rotorwrench]

Tom and others utilized electronics that will pulse the output to limit the voltage. Tom may have also had a current limiting circuit on his but I don't know how he set it up. John Regan didn't. He used the 3rd brush to limit the current.
The pulsing should have been fast enough that the ammeter wouldn't even register it. Most of these units will show a charge on the ammeter after start due to the amount of current that was drawn out of the battery. It takes it a bit to restore that energy level to the battery but it shouldn't indicate much charge after the battery is restored to full capacity. The OP's EVR seems to have had some intermittent problem for it to give the ammeter indications that it did. I can't say if it was strictly related to the EVR or was some other cause in the generator or the cars wiring to the battery.

Using the old electro-mechanical three pole generator control unit will not work with a 3-brush unit. It would have to be converted to a two brush unit for it to properly function. It would not be all that easy to do that since the brushes would have to be relocated to match the later type generators used by Ford up through 1955.

[katy]

I'm going to try using a 2 pole "generator control unit" from an 8N ford tractor.

Something like this: https://www.amazon.ca/DB-Electrical-...%2C2684&sr=8-3

Or this:https://www.amazon.ca/DB-Electrical-...19DHPRHG&psc=1

[nkaminar]

Katy, The A circuit controls the field current by shorting to ground. You want the B circuit that controls the current by supplying voltage to the field windings. See the link in Post #2. To see how the B circuit works, see the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-C_Tpmv-J4.

Rotorwrench, In the stock generator the field current is supplied by the third brush. With the B circuit voltage regulator this field current is supplied by the regulator instead. No modifications are needed to the generator. The wire from the field windings that would normally go to the third brush is instead lead to the regulator FLD terminal. It is actually a very easy thing to do. No conversion needed except running that wire. The other two brushes are left untouched.

For those of you interested in the technology of the 3rd brush, here it is. As the speed of the generator increases the spot on the armature and thus the commutator that has the maximum voltage changes. It moves around to a different location on the commutator. Without any regulation, the generator voltage and thus current would increase with increase in rpm. As the spot on the commutator where the maximum voltage moves with increasing rpm, it moves away from where the 3rd brush is thus decreasing the current to the field windings and reducing the voltage and thus current that the generator is putting out. This is a very crude method of voltage/current regulation that was a carry over from the Model T. The maximum voltage spot moves due to the impedance of the windings in the armature.

[katy]

The A circuit controls the field current by shorting to ground.

Right, the grounded end of the field windings is removed from ground and brought out to the VR. Simple.

[nkaminar]

Katy, You can do that but the other end that would normally be connected to the third brush should then be connected to the hot brush. Or you can move the third brush to the maximum current position but that may limit the generator output . In my mind it is simpler to disconnect the wire that runs to the third brush and connect it to the FLD terminal of a type B regulator.

[foxyjoe]

I bought a car with one of Tom's EVR installed in a long generator. I've recently seen the ammeter needle shaking a lot, rather than a nice steady 3(ish) amps. Then it just stopped charging. After a while charging resumed, then it shut off for good.

Any thoughts?

Does anyone know of availability of one of his units? Any troubleshooting guidelines?

[Badpuppy]

https://www.vintagefordforum.net/for...92543-evr-poll

The link acts goofy for me for some reason. But there is a discussion on VFF of a new EVR that Mitch started on 10/14 in the Model A section.

[jrelliott]

Have you checked the connections on the regulator and ground on the battery? You could also have an intermittent short that would cause the amp meter to spike then go back down.

[diomed]

The website is .com, not .net

FordBarn must edit the link, just change it to .com in the URL bar

Originally Posted by Badpuppy

https://www.vintagefordforum.net/for...92543-evr-poll

The link acts goofy for me for some reason. But there is a discussion on VFF of a new EVR that Mitch started on 10/14 in the Model A section.

[30Murray]

I installed one of Tom's EVR's about 5 years ago and it has been working well ever since, but I did have some initial problems with it. Looking back on past correspondence with him, these were the major problems.
First, it was a very tight fit and I had to file the edge of the circuit board so the heat sink would clear the commutator. There is a lip on the generator end plate that it fits against.
Second, it shorted out because the insulation on the backside of the circuit board was too thin - I added extra insulating varnish plus a thin rubber pad. The attached image is the backside before the extra varnish was applied.
It is held in place by a single screw which could come loose and allow it to rotate and possibly rub on the commutator or short out if the insulation is damaged - this hasn't happened to me since I installed it, but it's something to check.

[Badpuppy]

Originally Posted by diomed

The website is .com, not .net

FordBarn must edit the link, just change it to .com in the URL bar

You're right. Somehow changes itself from .com to .net. I tried to edit it, but it stays .net.

[foxyjoe]

Update on my earlier post... the erratic charging was caused by a loose wire going to the brush!

[rotorwrench]

There is another outfit that is gearing up to make the EVRs. The started with the model Ts but the change to 6-volt positive ground is not that much of a challenge. Here is a link to a recent post on the subject.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2297785

[ndnchf]

Glad to hear it was a simple fix.

Just FYI, here are photos of Mike Hill's new EVR. One going in a '29 - early '30 generator, the other in a flathead V8 generator. Mike picked up the ball after Tom's passing and makes a very nice EVR. I have installed 6 of them so far, including my own '31 pickup and '35 Fordor V8. They work great.

[LuisUp]

Originally Posted by Barry in St.Paul

hi guys,
Have any of you with Tom Wesenberg EVRs had problems with the charge "cycling" from nothing to full charge and back again? If so, were you able to solve the problem?

I had posted earlier about problems with my generator cycling, (is 'all or nothing', no charge for several miles, then full charge for several miles...). And how I was going to revert back from my diode to an original style cutout to see if that fixed it. A local club member directed me to dear sorely-missed Tom's instructions in an old post, to "snip the little blue wire" on the EVR for use with a diode cutout. So, I decided to do that. To my surprise, the little blue wire is already cut!!!

I shouldn't be surprised, Tom installed the EWR for me 13 years ago, and I must have had the diode cutout then. I DID ask him about this cycling issue then (at completion of my restoration), and he assumed it must be because I was using an Optima battery. Recently I switched back to a std battery and still had the problem, thus 'finally time to do something about it'. Now I don't have any idea what to do. I thought about soldering the wire back together and trying a std cutout.... but if the EVR doesn't work as intended now with wire snipped +diode (per Tom's design), why would it be any different with a regular cutout? Thinking I may have to live with the cycling (issue because short drives ending on "no charge" means "low battery voltage" next time I start it). OR, put the 3rd brush back in :-( Any ideas?? Thanks!

You're experiencing charge cycling issues with your Tom Wesenberg EVR and have tried various solutions, like reverting to an original cutout or snipping the blue wire, but the problem persists, and you're seeking advice on how to resolve it.