What's causing this squeak?

[Old Henry]

It's in the back end. Sounds like in the middle somewhere. The car is in gear. http://youtu.be/xZdX1ULUwPs

What do you think is causing it and what to do about it?

[BILL WZOREK]

I don't know what it is but I bet it is tied to your VIBERAZTION !?!?!?!?!?

[G.M.]

I think you should jack the radiator cap up and drive another car underneath It. G.M.

[Mart]

Long shot, but easy to do, try it with the hubcaps and trim rings removed, and check the wheel nuts and hub nut for tightness.

You don't think it's the pesky rear couple pin problem, do you?

Mart.

[Seth Swoboda]

Have you checked out wheel bearing grease lately, or do you have a break shoe that is rubbing the drum slighty?

[peewee2you]

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Sounds like possible issues with emergency brake or brake shoes like Seth said..

[oldford2]

Sounds like a broken shoe spring. Jack it up and turn by hand. Looks like you should pull the drum rather than have us all guess. You probably could have pulled the drum in the time it took you to make/post the video.
John

[Old Henry]

I'll be pulling all drums to grease the bearings tomorrow for the 10,000 mile maintenance. (Just hit 230,000 miles)

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by G.M.

I think you should jack the radiator cap up and drive another car underneath It. G.M.

Ah, now I get it. I've always wondered why you had so darn many vehicles sitting around your place and only one radiator cap. But, don't you eventually run out of replacement vehicles and actually have to stop and fix one?

[oldford2]

"I'll be pulling all drums to grease the bearings tomorrow for the 10,000 mile maintenance. (Just hit 230,000 miles)"
__________________

Professor, Good move. Let us know what you find. John

[4dFord/SC]

Sounds like the front porch swing to me. Where are you parked?

[V8COOPMAN]

Possibly a Johnson rod bushing that the pit guy missed at Jiffy Lube? DD

[uncle max]

Best answer yet!!!

Originally Posted by G.M.

I think you should jack the radiator cap up and drive another car underneath It. G.M.

[APDAVE]

I have heard similar noises from loose lug nuts, how about your axle nut torque! Dave

[john mullen]

^^^^^ lug nuts.....

[Snouts out]

It sounds like a bad open drive shaft u-joint,& if it's not,I'll bet Prof knows what it is!

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Ah, now I get it. I've always wondered why you had so darn many vehicles sitting around your place and only one radiator cap. But, don't you eventually run out of replacement vehicles and actually have to stop and fix one?

I very seldom have to stop and fix one I fix them right the first time. G.M.

[flatford8]

Did these latest issues start after you ran it thru that 2ft. mud hole????.....Mark

[Mart]

What happens if it is in neutral and you roll it back and forth? If you still get the noise it is probably something to do with the brakes. I suspect it is not the brakes as the noise happens when the motion of the car is stopped by the slack being taken out of the driveline.

Any progress yet?

Mart.

[Sid the Maineiac]

I'd guess something loose in the brake dept,If lugnuts making noise like that you should see some wheel wobble I would think .Same with axle nut !I wouldn't go far till I knew what it was just so you don't cause more damage to car or you !! Good luck with it.May your problem be small !!

[Old Henry]

Haven't pulled the back wheels yet but had my wife rock it this morning while I got under to try to pin point the location of the squeak better. It's not in the wheels. It's in or near the differential. I'm still pulling the wheels to pack the bearings. We'll see if anything is loose on them.

[Old Henry]

So, I took the nut off of a rear hub to remove the brake drum (lug nuts were all tight). It was tough to loosen as I'd torqued it to 200 ft/lb but was then surprised that I didn't need a puller to pull the drum off. Just had to back off the brake shoes. Then was surprised when I got the hub/drum off by this:

See anything wrong with this key?







Yeah. Split right down the middle. The surface of the axle was shiny at points indicating rubbing. That could certainly have been my squeak. We'll see when I get it all back together. Sure would be nice if that was also the cause of my vibration that goes away once this is fixed. The bad news is that Old Henry is now disabled until I get a new key. Plus, I have the mystery of why the sliding and breaking when I had the nut torqued properly? I'm thinking that the taper of this axle I replaced is slightly different than the taper of my hub. Don't know what to do about that.

[dwaynec]

Can you lap it with some valve grinding compound or something like that?

[Old Henry]

Probably could if I knew what that meant and had the equipment for it if such is needed.

[V8COOPMAN]

That damaged key is just the result of something else that's not right, especially if you did have 200 ft. pounds on the nut. How 'bout a couple of pictures of the tapered axle end, and maybe the inside taper of the hub, also. DD

[dude]

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Lady at Jiffy Lube can pin point it..

[dwaynec]

Lapping is pretty easy. Just buy some valve lapping compound and spread it all around the taper. Then slide on the drum without the key. Put your washer and nut on and tighten it just tight enough that you can spin the drum on the axle. Spin it about a dozen times and then remove the drum and clean completely to get rid of all the compound. You should be able to see if all the high spots on the taper and drum have been trued. If not try again for a few turns. It shouldn't take too many spins to get it done.

[Old Henry]

Thanks. What kind of store do I buy the lapping compound?

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

That damaged key is just the result of something else that's not right, especially if you did have 200 ft. pounds on the nut. How 'bout a couple of pictures of the tapered axle end, and maybe the inside taper of the hub, also. DD

Here's the tapered end of the axle showing the smooth area next to the bearing race.



Here's the best I could get of the hub surface:



The thing I noticed most about this picture is that there seems to be some roller bearings missing. Are there? Is that bearing supposed to be full of the rollers or have some space as shown?

[dwaynec]

Napa or any auto parts store should have it.

[V8COOPMAN]

Picture below (thank you Jim P.) shows what that bearing should look like...clean yours up! The axle end and the inside of the hub taper should be clean and shiny, with no imperfections on either surface. All that dirt and rust are not helping the required, tight fit of both tapered surfaces. Is there any sign of cracking at inner end of keyway? Can't tell squat about anything with all that dirt, rust and grease. DD

[Old Henry]

That picture answers my question about the rollers. I see that there are supporting rods periodically in place of a roller so I'm not missing any.

I, of course, will be removing and cleaning the bearings before re-greasing and replacing them.

Off to AutoZone now for the lapping compound.

Thanks for your help.

[john mullen]

just a suggestion to help see what the taper is.. Take sand paper and clean the rust off the hub and axel. then coat the tapered shaft with a felt tip wide blade magic marker. Then add the compound and follow the procedure it will show you quickly just how well the axel and hub match up. Just a couple turns will give the results clearly on the axel and hub.. I hope this helps...Good luck

[Mart]

It's lucky that you found the problem at home rather than on one of your road trips.

Once it is lapped in and fitted with a new key, it might be worth checking the other side and making sure all is well.

Mart.

[uncle max]

Originally Posted by dude

Lady at Jiffy Lube can pin point it..

Yer killin' me.

[Old Henry]

Squeak is gone. Lapping that axle and hub smoothed both right out for a nice tight fit. Another problem was that the threads on the axle were bunged where the nut really needed to tighten so even when it was tight the hub wasn't. An extra washer fixed that up. I was lucky (again) that Old Chuckles up the street dropped in while I was working on it. When I told him I was dead until I ordered a new key he said to just go down to the auto parts place and get a piece of standard ¼" key stock and cut it to length. Sure enough. Went down to O'Reilly's and, once I found someone smart enough to know what I was talking about and how to find it, I got it, took it home, cut it to length and put it all back together. I did take off all of the other wheels to grease the bearings. The other back wheel was fine. So, back "on the road again". That's the good news. The bad news is that the axle/hub problem was not the cause of my vibration. I still have that.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Old Henry

Squeak is gone. Lapping that axle and hub smoothed both right out for a nice tight fit. Another problem was that the threads on the axle were bunged where the nut really needed to tighten so even when it was tight the hub wasn't. An extra washer fixed that up.

Not sure that I can wrap my head around how that works. First you say that lapping gave you "a nice tight fit". Then you indicate that when the nut was "tight" on the "bunged" threads, "the hub wasn't".

So, you're essentially saying that you tightened the nut to around 200 ft. lbs. on the bunged threads portion and the hub was loose? Then, you loosened the nut, slipped an extra washer on, tightened the nut BACK to 200-ish and all was well? What REALLY happened, Craig? Did you really torque to 200? Quite frankly, those threads on that axle don't look very healthy. DD

[Bolts]

Hi Craig. About the axle threads.
When I pulled the hub off my car for the first time (as I have only owned it 3 months), the nut was loose and the threads looked like the picture you show, maybe a little worse.

Question, you said the hub came right off, so the nut must have been loose when you took it off, right? Otherwise how could the hub have worked loose on the taper?

That was the case with mine. The nut was loose, even with the cotter pin in. This tells me the nut didn't hold anything really and the forces from driving caused the hub to move axially allowing it to slide off the taper. That's why the keys were all messed up. Relative motion between the axle and hub tapers. New keys will become fish weights also (as Alan ford38v8 calls them) if the nut doesn't stay tight.

I would be very careful driving it until you know those threads are holding. Frankly, they don't look any good at all.

I suggest you take corrective action before trusting them, especially as you like to travel out into the remote areas where a cell phone might not work.

Using a spacer washer to get to a point on the threads that will hold means they have been destroyed and the remaining portion of the possibly 1 or 2 threads cannot be trusted to hold. I would worry that tightening the few threads or portions of threads remaining to 200 ft/lbs will only serve to overstress them so they fail also even if the taper is fitting better.

Your call, but this is a safety issue. Not trying to criticize, and hope you understand my concern.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Not sure that I can wrap my head around how that works. First you say that lapping gave you "a nice tight fit". Then you indicate that when the nut was "tight" on the "bunged" threads, "the hub wasn't".

So, you're essentially saying that you tightened the nut to around 200 ft. lbs. on the bunged threads portion and the hub was loose? Then, you loosened the nut, slipped an extra washer on, tightened the nut BACK to 200-ish and all was well? What REALLY happened, Craig? Did you really torque to 200? Quite frankly, those threads on that axle don't look very healthy. DD

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
You wrapped your head around it just fine.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Bolts

Hi Craig. About the axle threads.
When I pulled the hub off my car for the first time (as I have only owned it 3 months), the nut was loose and the threads looked like the picture you show, maybe a little worse.

Question, you said the hub came right off, so the nut must have been loose when you took it off, right? Otherwise how could the hub have worked loose on the taper?

That was the case with mine. The nut was loose, even with the cotter pin in. This tells me the nut didn't hold anything really and the forces from driving caused the hub to move axially allowing it to slide off the taper. That's why the keys were all messed up. Relative motion between the axle and hub tapers. New keys will become fish weights also (as Alan ford38v8 calls them) if the nut doesn't stay tight.

I would be very careful driving it until you know those threads are holding. Frankly, they don't look any good at all.

I suggest you take corrective action before trusting them, especially as you like to travel out into the remote areas where a cell phone might not work.

Using a spacer washer to get to a point on the threads that will hold means they have been destroyed and the remaining portion of the possibly 1 or 2 threads cannot be trusted to hold. I would worry that tightening the few threads or portions of threads remaining to 200 ft/lbs will only serve to overstress them so they fail also even if the taper is fitting better.

Your call, but this is a safety issue. Not trying to criticize, and hope you understand my concern.

You got it right. The nut was torqued to 200 ft/lbs but was not pushing on the hub tight enough because the bunged threads stopped it. It most likely has been like that since shortly after I put this axle on in December 2012, over 18,000 miles ago. A thin additional washer got it tight and could still get the slots in the nut down to the pin hole to put the pin in so all is well. No worries.

Thanks for your concern and comments.

[Old Henry]

Something I've been quite hesitant to say because I hoped that it has become quite obvious from my many experiences driving Old Henry exactly like hundreds of thousands of people did in the decades after he was made: These cars were not made very well compared to modern cars. They only had a 90 day warranty! So, things wore out and broke a lot more often than they do on modern cars. The point that I hope has been obvious is that it didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now. Even though these old cars were not made to be perfect for very long, they were, in fact, made to be very serviceable and reliable without being perfect. And, even now, when no one has to drive them on a daily basis nor long distances like they used to, if they really want to, like I do, they are just as serviceable now, with all of their imperfections, as they were 50-60 years ago. One needn't fear to get out and really have fun in these old cars as much as they want to. They'll get you there and back. This one I drive did when I drove it back in the 60's and it still does now.

Don't worry. Be happy.

[G.M.]

It looks like the taper is worn and the hub is going on farther than it did originally. The rust in the drum taper indicates space, if tight there wouldn't be any rust. The drum going on the axle to far didn't allow the nut to push the drum tight on the taper, the nut bottomed out on the flat end of the axle at the end of the threads. Being able to pull the drum off by hand indicates what I just said. I would take it apart, clean the inside of the drum taper and the axle with solvent several times and dry good so both surfaces are clean and dry. Slide the drum on and off WITHOUT the KEY. When bumped in hard it should be difficult to pull the drum off this will indicate the drum is grabbing on the taper. The tight fit on the drum is what should drive the wheel not the key. The key is only a helper or safety in a case like you have. Replace the thin washer you installed with a thick one so you are pushing hard on the drum, redrill the cotter pin hole if you need to. The wear lines in the side of the key indicates the taper is loose, you should never see this wear line. G.M.

[Mart]

The brown appearance is probably more due to "fretting" rather than rust, as we normally know it. It does denote movement between the two surfaces, though.

If you do now have a good contact between the hub and shaft, and it grabs on or "wrings" on without the key, then if cleaned meticulously and assembled up with a new key (remember the key does have a couple of tapers filed on near the ends, you need to replicate that), then all that remains is, 1, to ensure the hub still clears all the brake mechanism, and 2, to investigate the axle thread, nut thread and correctness and thickness of washer.

It may be a good idea to run a thread chaser down the axle threads and a tap through the nut, or get ahold of NOS or at least good quality replacements.

You need to see how far the nut runs up the thread without the washer and if there is a gap, then the washer needs to be thicker than the gap, so you know the nut isn't bottoming on the threads.

If this was a replacement axle, do you have good parts on the old axle?

All these parts need to be in A1 condition to be able to withstand the high torque needing to be applied to hold that taper fast.

Mart.

[keith oh]

Be glad there are two parts close enough to squeak.

[Bolts]

I really do appreciate this thread because of my own problems with my car. In thinking about that axle taper, I have come to the conclusion that the high torque on the nut was specified to guarantee a tight fit between the axle and hub, but why SO TIGHT. One can appreciate all the manufacturing variables in making the parts originally like tolerances of size and location for all the parts involved as well as knowing that subsequent servicing on the cars would be done in local repair shops where dirt, metal filings and grease would be present when the hubs were removed and replaced. Here's the thing. We don't know how good the fit on our cars really is. If it goes together we think everything is fine, and it will be if care is taken to keep things clean and parts are serviceable. The high torque on the nut was specified for one purpose only as far as I can understand. That purpose is to GUARANTEE a tight fit on the taper, sufficient to overcome the miniscule variables of the parts such as surface roughness on the mating parts, burrs, dirt, metal chips, corrosion, distortion, etc.
To my thinking, the integrity of the axle threads is very critical to maintain the pressure on the joint. Once it loosens up (even a little), things get worse quickly. If the thread can't hold it together, the axle key won't prevent the hub from wobbling off. I'm not speaking of the nut unwinding, but breaking free as the threads fracture away. I don't know how well the cotter pin can keep the nut on if the wobbling eats the threads down to nothing, and I don't know if it is common for wheels to come off because the nut came off, but I know that big thread was deemed necessary by the Ford engineers and if it's not good, all bets are off. Just my humble opinion.
Those of you with experiences in this area will know if the assembly is overdesigned or marginal. I do not know, so I am interested to hear more about this whole subject from those of you who do know.
Craig, thanks for the thread.
Alex

[Fordors]

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Craig, the wedging action of a taper is what holds it tight and in some instances no key or nut is used to hold it tight. I have a Craftsman drill press from the early '70's and the chuck is held in the spindle only by the Morse 33 (size designation) taper. If assembled dry and clean it can, and has for me, operated all these years and never loosened yet. In feeding a drill through a workpiece the chuck sees thrust and rotational forces but the drive belt will slip before the chuck could ever rotate in the spindle. In addition, drilling is "forcing" the taper tight, there is no outside force that might try to loosen it. Driving an axle on an automobile on the other hand the wheel will naturally see rotation but also side force in traveling down the road, the occasional pothole, sometimes improper assembly (burrs, not clean, not dry) and for those reasons the key and nut are employed. The key will ensure that rotation is not compromised providing the nut is properly torqued.
Loading the taper with the torque of the nut keeps that assembly secure, but an axle key can still be broken if shocked with enough horsepower, a dumped clutch and some traction.
I would not call the Ford tapered axle over-designed and it certainly is not marginal if assembled clean and torqued properly. On the other hand if the threads are damaged by poor hub puller practices, or the taper is not clean or fitted properly, or too much power is put through the drive-line then all bets are off.
With Old Henry's axles I would pay particular attention to the width of the key slots in both the axles and hubs. Does the new key stock fit the keyway snugly in both? If it fits the hub tight is it the same in the axle? Clean and inspect the threads, any damage to them from a previous repair job? If keyways and threads are OK and the tapers are lapped as suggested clean everything and then clean it again before re-assembly. JMO, your results may vary.

[G.M.]

The reason for the LONG taper is so the two parts grab together, any slight oil on either part defeats the grabbing effect and don't allow the two parts to come in contact. Even with the nut tight the oil won't compress to get the metal to metal contact that is required. G.M.

[Planojc]

I've seen lots of Model A's with worn taper on either the hub or axle, use an axle shim so that the nut will tighten the two as one.

[F1 MIKE]

HENRY can you show me how you laped that axle MIKE.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by F1 MIKE

HENRY can you show me how you lapped that axle MIKE.

I did it just like dwaynec said to in post # 27. Went down to O'Reilly auto parts and bought this VersaChem (Permatex) metal grinding compound for $4.00:



It's silicone carbide in a grease base.

Then I smeared an even coat of the course grade paste on the tapered part of my axle, put the hub on (without the key, of course), put the washer and nut on, and tightened the nut down finger tight. Then I turned the hub on the axle counterclockwise while continuing to tighten the nut with a wrench. (I actually just put a crescent wrench on the nut and let just the weight of the handle tighten it as I turned the hub.) I thought I had quite a bit of grinding to go to get the axle and hub to totally mate smoothly so I probably turned it for a minute or two. Then took the hub off and the axle was nice and smooth and had a little traction on it from the course grade compound. I assume the inside of the hub was the same. Cleaned both surfaces good to remove all of the abrasive and that was it. Easy as pie (or is that "A Piece of Cake"). Didn't take an "after" picture but the "before" picture is in my post # 29. After the lapping, all of that red was gone and the metal was just bare, raw metal smooth as though it had just been turned on a lathe. One might follow with the fine grade paste but I liked the idea of a little traction left on the surfaces to really grab when they were torqued together.

Grinding compound here: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...nding+compound

[Lawrie]

Henry,if you want to be sure it stays tight ,when you reassemble it put some loctite super retaining compound on the taper.
BUT it will make it a pain when you take it apart next.
But if the taper is fine you want need it.
Lawrie

[F1 MIKE]

Henry I never lapped one on the car thanks for the info Mike.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Henry,if you want to be sure it stays tight ,when you reassemble it put some loctite super retaining compound on the taper.
BUT it will make it a pain when you take it apart next.
But if the taper is fine you want need it.
Lawrie

Lawrie...With ALL due respect ('cuz YOU do some nifty stuff), putting ANYTHING on that taper defeats the purpose of how a machined-taper is designed to function. It should go back together clean, dry and tight. Think about the physics of a MORSE TAPER. DD

[Mart]

^^ agree.

No disrespect, Lawrie.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Funny. Before I understood the function of the taper I had the idea of putting some No-seize on the taper to make it easier to pull off.
At ease. At ease. As you were. I never did it.

[ford38v8]

lawrie, retaining compound helps in applications using straight shafts such as a pulley, but is definitely not for taper shafts requireing a clean dry surface, which is defeated by the compound.

[Old Henry]

Ok. Ok. Lawrie's had three rebuffs now. I think that's enough.
Gee whiz.

[Lawrie]

You are never too old to learn something new.
Lawrie

[dwaynec]

I am glad the that lapping helped you out. That is a trick that my dad gave me way too many years ago when I was in high school with my '47 Merc.

Funny how some stuff is retained forever and the rest just kinda goes away.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Henry,if you want to be sure it stays tight ,when you reassemble it put some loctite super retaining compound on the taper.
BUT it will make it a pain when you take it apart next.
But if the taper is fine you want need it.
Lawrie

Lawrie I also believe if the taper was bad and not making complete contact that a type of super locking compound if applied to a clean dry surface would stop it from any play. I have some that after it sets which isn't very long you have to heat the parts to get it loose. I wouldn't want to try and pull the drum if it was locked on. I have used it on the drive shaft splines that had a little play before putting the rivet in. These types of materials set from the compression of the joint so I don't know if it worked on the drive shaft or not but it hasn't come loose in a number of years. G.M.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Lawrie...With ALL due respect ('cuz YOU do some nifty stuff), putting ANYTHING on that taper defeats the purpose of how a machined-taper is designed to function. It should go back together clean, dry and tight. Think about the physics of a MORSE TAPER. DD

Coopman, you are 100% correct about this. It was always amazing what a Morse taper could hold. I recalll clearly using a 6" drill bit in a vertical drill press... no problem holding it with a Morse.
One thing I'd like to add - the mating surfaces should be SMOOTH. Any marks remaining from polishing compound, etc. lessen the grip.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by Kube

. . . the mating surfaces should be SMOOTH. Any marks remaining from polishing compound, etc. lessen the grip.

I wondered about that. Probably should have followed up with the fine grade compound. We'll see how it goes.