What's causing this squeak?

[Old Henry]

Something I've been quite hesitant to say because I hoped that it has become quite obvious from my many experiences driving Old Henry exactly like hundreds of thousands of people did in the decades after he was made: These cars were not made very well compared to modern cars. They only had a 90 day warranty! So, things wore out and broke a lot more often than they do on modern cars. The point that I hope has been obvious is that it didn't matter then and it doesn't matter now. Even though these old cars were not made to be perfect for very long, they were, in fact, made to be very serviceable and reliable without being perfect. And, even now, when no one has to drive them on a daily basis nor long distances like they used to, if they really want to, like I do, they are just as serviceable now, with all of their imperfections, as they were 50-60 years ago. One needn't fear to get out and really have fun in these old cars as much as they want to. They'll get you there and back. This one I drive did when I drove it back in the 60's and it still does now.

Don't worry. Be happy.

[G.M.]

It looks like the taper is worn and the hub is going on farther than it did originally. The rust in the drum taper indicates space, if tight there wouldn't be any rust. The drum going on the axle to far didn't allow the nut to push the drum tight on the taper, the nut bottomed out on the flat end of the axle at the end of the threads. Being able to pull the drum off by hand indicates what I just said. I would take it apart, clean the inside of the drum taper and the axle with solvent several times and dry good so both surfaces are clean and dry. Slide the drum on and off WITHOUT the KEY. When bumped in hard it should be difficult to pull the drum off this will indicate the drum is grabbing on the taper. The tight fit on the drum is what should drive the wheel not the key. The key is only a helper or safety in a case like you have. Replace the thin washer you installed with a thick one so you are pushing hard on the drum, redrill the cotter pin hole if you need to. The wear lines in the side of the key indicates the taper is loose, you should never see this wear line. G.M.

[Mart]

The brown appearance is probably more due to "fretting" rather than rust, as we normally know it. It does denote movement between the two surfaces, though.

If you do now have a good contact between the hub and shaft, and it grabs on or "wrings" on without the key, then if cleaned meticulously and assembled up with a new key (remember the key does have a couple of tapers filed on near the ends, you need to replicate that), then all that remains is, 1, to ensure the hub still clears all the brake mechanism, and 2, to investigate the axle thread, nut thread and correctness and thickness of washer.

It may be a good idea to run a thread chaser down the axle threads and a tap through the nut, or get ahold of NOS or at least good quality replacements.

You need to see how far the nut runs up the thread without the washer and if there is a gap, then the washer needs to be thicker than the gap, so you know the nut isn't bottoming on the threads.

If this was a replacement axle, do you have good parts on the old axle?

All these parts need to be in A1 condition to be able to withstand the high torque needing to be applied to hold that taper fast.

Mart.

[keith oh]

Be glad there are two parts close enough to squeak.

[Bolts]

I really do appreciate this thread because of my own problems with my car. In thinking about that axle taper, I have come to the conclusion that the high torque on the nut was specified to guarantee a tight fit between the axle and hub, but why SO TIGHT. One can appreciate all the manufacturing variables in making the parts originally like tolerances of size and location for all the parts involved as well as knowing that subsequent servicing on the cars would be done in local repair shops where dirt, metal filings and grease would be present when the hubs were removed and replaced. Here's the thing. We don't know how good the fit on our cars really is. If it goes together we think everything is fine, and it will be if care is taken to keep things clean and parts are serviceable. The high torque on the nut was specified for one purpose only as far as I can understand. That purpose is to GUARANTEE a tight fit on the taper, sufficient to overcome the miniscule variables of the parts such as surface roughness on the mating parts, burrs, dirt, metal chips, corrosion, distortion, etc.
To my thinking, the integrity of the axle threads is very critical to maintain the pressure on the joint. Once it loosens up (even a little), things get worse quickly. If the thread can't hold it together, the axle key won't prevent the hub from wobbling off. I'm not speaking of the nut unwinding, but breaking free as the threads fracture away. I don't know how well the cotter pin can keep the nut on if the wobbling eats the threads down to nothing, and I don't know if it is common for wheels to come off because the nut came off, but I know that big thread was deemed necessary by the Ford engineers and if it's not good, all bets are off. Just my humble opinion.
Those of you with experiences in this area will know if the assembly is overdesigned or marginal. I do not know, so I am interested to hear more about this whole subject from those of you who do know.
Craig, thanks for the thread.
Alex

[Fordors]

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Craig, the wedging action of a taper is what holds it tight and in some instances no key or nut is used to hold it tight. I have a Craftsman drill press from the early '70's and the chuck is held in the spindle only by the Morse 33 (size designation) taper. If assembled dry and clean it can, and has for me, operated all these years and never loosened yet. In feeding a drill through a workpiece the chuck sees thrust and rotational forces but the drive belt will slip before the chuck could ever rotate in the spindle. In addition, drilling is "forcing" the taper tight, there is no outside force that might try to loosen it. Driving an axle on an automobile on the other hand the wheel will naturally see rotation but also side force in traveling down the road, the occasional pothole, sometimes improper assembly (burrs, not clean, not dry) and for those reasons the key and nut are employed. The key will ensure that rotation is not compromised providing the nut is properly torqued.
Loading the taper with the torque of the nut keeps that assembly secure, but an axle key can still be broken if shocked with enough horsepower, a dumped clutch and some traction.
I would not call the Ford tapered axle over-designed and it certainly is not marginal if assembled clean and torqued properly. On the other hand if the threads are damaged by poor hub puller practices, or the taper is not clean or fitted properly, or too much power is put through the drive-line then all bets are off.
With Old Henry's axles I would pay particular attention to the width of the key slots in both the axles and hubs. Does the new key stock fit the keyway snugly in both? If it fits the hub tight is it the same in the axle? Clean and inspect the threads, any damage to them from a previous repair job? If keyways and threads are OK and the tapers are lapped as suggested clean everything and then clean it again before re-assembly. JMO, your results may vary.

[G.M.]

The reason for the LONG taper is so the two parts grab together, any slight oil on either part defeats the grabbing effect and don't allow the two parts to come in contact. Even with the nut tight the oil won't compress to get the metal to metal contact that is required. G.M.

[Planojc]

I've seen lots of Model A's with worn taper on either the hub or axle, use an axle shim so that the nut will tighten the two as one.

[F1 MIKE]

HENRY can you show me how you laped that axle MIKE.

[Old Henry]

Originally Posted by F1 MIKE

HENRY can you show me how you lapped that axle MIKE.

I did it just like dwaynec said to in post # 27. Went down to O'Reilly auto parts and bought this VersaChem (Permatex) metal grinding compound for $4.00:



It's silicone carbide in a grease base.

Then I smeared an even coat of the course grade paste on the tapered part of my axle, put the hub on (without the key, of course), put the washer and nut on, and tightened the nut down finger tight. Then I turned the hub on the axle counterclockwise while continuing to tighten the nut with a wrench. (I actually just put a crescent wrench on the nut and let just the weight of the handle tighten it as I turned the hub.) I thought I had quite a bit of grinding to go to get the axle and hub to totally mate smoothly so I probably turned it for a minute or two. Then took the hub off and the axle was nice and smooth and had a little traction on it from the course grade compound. I assume the inside of the hub was the same. Cleaned both surfaces good to remove all of the abrasive and that was it. Easy as pie (or is that "A Piece of Cake"). Didn't take an "after" picture but the "before" picture is in my post # 29. After the lapping, all of that red was gone and the metal was just bare, raw metal smooth as though it had just been turned on a lathe. One might follow with the fine grade paste but I liked the idea of a little traction left on the surfaces to really grab when they were torqued together.

Grinding compound here: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...nding+compound

[Lawrie]

Henry,if you want to be sure it stays tight ,when you reassemble it put some loctite super retaining compound on the taper.
BUT it will make it a pain when you take it apart next.
But if the taper is fine you want need it.
Lawrie

[F1 MIKE]

Henry I never lapped one on the car thanks for the info Mike.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Henry,if you want to be sure it stays tight ,when you reassemble it put some loctite super retaining compound on the taper.
BUT it will make it a pain when you take it apart next.
But if the taper is fine you want need it.
Lawrie

Lawrie...With ALL due respect ('cuz YOU do some nifty stuff), putting ANYTHING on that taper defeats the purpose of how a machined-taper is designed to function. It should go back together clean, dry and tight. Think about the physics of a MORSE TAPER. DD

[Mart]

^^ agree.

No disrespect, Lawrie.

Mart.

[Old Henry]

Funny. Before I understood the function of the taper I had the idea of putting some No-seize on the taper to make it easier to pull off.
At ease. At ease. As you were. I never did it.

[ford38v8]

lawrie, retaining compound helps in applications using straight shafts such as a pulley, but is definitely not for taper shafts requireing a clean dry surface, which is defeated by the compound.

[Old Henry]

Ok. Ok. Lawrie's had three rebuffs now. I think that's enough.
Gee whiz.

[Lawrie]

You are never too old to learn something new.
Lawrie

[dwaynec]

I am glad the that lapping helped you out. That is a trick that my dad gave me way too many years ago when I was in high school with my '47 Merc.

Funny how some stuff is retained forever and the rest just kinda goes away.

[G.M.]

Originally Posted by Lawrie

Henry,if you want to be sure it stays tight ,when you reassemble it put some loctite super retaining compound on the taper.
BUT it will make it a pain when you take it apart next.
But if the taper is fine you want need it.
Lawrie

Lawrie I also believe if the taper was bad and not making complete contact that a type of super locking compound if applied to a clean dry surface would stop it from any play. I have some that after it sets which isn't very long you have to heat the parts to get it loose. I wouldn't want to try and pull the drum if it was locked on. I have used it on the drive shaft splines that had a little play before putting the rivet in. These types of materials set from the compression of the joint so I don't know if it worked on the drive shaft or not but it hasn't come loose in a number of years. G.M.