The Ford Barn

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 01:40 PM

Hey everybody! Help!!! I have a problem and I need some advice from experts. My 1936 pickup (1938 engine) was left out in the rain and snow (not my idea) for a year and unfortunately the air filter filled up with water somehow and evidently it overflowed into the carb. I drained the oil just before discovering this and did not notice any water coming out. This worried me so I took off the intake manifold to stick an inspection camera into the intake ports and it doesnt look good. I have no way of knowing if any made it into the cylinders but I am reluctant to turn the engine over without knowing. This engine was rebuilt about 20 years ago but has been driven only about 200 miles since. So here is my big decision: should I take off the heads to have a look? If I do what kind of problems might I run into? I have nightmares of broken studs or not being able to pry the heads off, or for some reason needing to machine them although I have so idea why that would be necessary. I know about torque, tightening sequence, etc. I can attach photos if its any help.

kurt v · 02-26-2023, 01:58 PM

Take all the nuts off the studs and keep soaking the studs for a day or two, then i tap a thin blade putty knife in the joint to start to get the head lose. i also take a 2x4 and a hammer a just hit all around the head to help jar it loose. Take your time they will come off, just work at it slow.

good luck kurt

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 02:12 PM

Thank you Kurt, it makes me feel more comfortable. I dont suppose I can re-use the head gasket. I see a few different types of those, copper, stainless... Do you have a favorite? And will I need any stuff in a can or tube to put on it? It has seeped a small amount of coolant from around a couple of studs in the past which is just a minor annoyance. There used to be a flathead rebuilder here called Furtados that I heard had a way to solve this, I seem to remember some kind of washer around each stud but that was a long time ago and I didnt know about him when I got the rebuild.

34fordy · 02-26-2023, 02:13 PM

I would remove the sparkplugs and turn the engine over by hand. If there is a great amount of liquid in the cylinders it will push a lot out the exhaust ports. Shine a light down each hole and see what you can. You could rent or borrow a bore scope to take a good look in each cylinder. If it looks ok put in a bit of lubricant to "wet" the walls as you turn it over by hand some more. I would probably try to start it at this point before pulling the heads. If this is not good info some else will follow up with some good ideas. This is all just what I would do. If that engine has almost no miles on the rebuild the gaskets should be good too. IMHO

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 03:01 PM

Here are a couple of pictured looking into intake ports. Inspection camera pictures show more detail but a bit harder to interpret.

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 03:10 PM

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Thanks Fordy, inspection camera only shows the top of the valves. But if I look in with it I can see the problem a little better. Obviously the water came up to the point where there is a little ridge before the valve so the question is, did any manage to go over these ridges?

Ggmac · 02-26-2023, 04:22 PM

In my opinion,Those are probably the valves that were closed and held the water back , well mostly. I would be concerned with other cylinders that had the valves open and did not restrict the water from entering the cyl . Of course all this is determined by the way it was parked , level ground or un level .

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 04:28 PM

Yeah... Before I knew the air cleaner was full I had to tow it about 5 miles... The water was frozen when I discovered it and I dont know if it was or not during the tow. If any water went into the cylinders would it damage rings, cylinder walls, etc.? Unfortunately it is not possible to see into the cylinders with the camera since the plugs are over the valves, not the pistons.

DavidG · 02-26-2023, 04:54 PM

It would be reckless to assume that water did not enter at least a couple of the combustion chambers well before your 5-mile tow.

I would go easy with a hammer with or without a two-by-four as it is not unknown that instead of aiding in removing the heads, cracks are introduced into the block as the casting wall thickness can be thin in places.

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 05:23 PM

Thanks David. Now I can add a crack in the block to my list of nightmares! Would definitely not hit it very hard if I decide to do this, hopefully it will pry off without a hammer since rebuild was recent, at least mileage-wise. Ill spray the studs with liquid wrench in case I decide to do this. So far (including friends and cousin) I have two "just start the thing"s and 3 "if there is rust in there youre screwed"s.

DavidG · 02-26-2023, 05:33 PM

Sorry to be a scare monger, but my advice is based on what a very experienced engine re-builder did to one of my engines in the process of removing a very reluctant aluminum cylinder head (in pieces).

34fordy · 02-26-2023, 05:35 PM

[QUOTE=BlueSpark Unfortunately it is not possible to see into the cylinders with the camera since the plugs are over the valves, not the pistons.

[/QUOTE]
With respect.
I have a late 38 engine also 4,645,3XX with block off plates and early 21 stud heads. With the plugs removed, each piston at BDC, and using a narrow beam light, I can see the bottom of each piston at the outside lower edge. This way I could see if there is water sitting there. If you do not have a narrow beam light you could just push a piece of 12ga wire down and if water is there it would appear. In your first post you seemed reluctant to pull the heads and I wondered if this was venturing into unchartered waters for you. Once the heads are removed it can be amazing what can show up and the cost can be very high. If you do have cracks as DavidG mentioned and not visible, when you put it together you have gained nothing. That is why I would give it a try after finding no water. Then if you do have problems you will only address them once. All is again only IMHO. There are some extremely knowledgeable folks on here that will have better advice. Sometimes, as in my case, the cost is the major consideration, not the time involved.

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 06:04 PM

Hi Fordy, I appreciate any and all opinions, dont worry about hurting my feelings! Yes it is uncharted territory for me. I have done all kinds of things on this truck myself successfully. But when I think about getting into an engine or transmission Im convinced a bunch of springs will fly out to be lost forever... Anyway I am going to try your light technique, maybe I gave up too easily.

34fordy · 02-26-2023, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueSpark

Hi Fordy, I appreciate any and all opinions, dont worry about hurting my feelings! Yes it is uncharted territory for me. I have done all kinds of things on this truck myself successfully. But when I think about getting into an engine or transmission Im convinced a bunch of springs will fly out to be lost forever... Anyway I am going to try your light technique, maybe I gave up too easily.

I guess I am either lazy or just an old cobbler BlueSpark. I would try everything I could before removing the heads. You may get to the point where you have no choice. If I did in fact see some water sitting at the bottom of a few cylinders I would take my shop vac out. I would get about 20" of 1/4 " ID clear hose and tape it tight to the narrow head I have so it would have very strong suction. I would work it through the slight opening down to the bottom of any cylinder with water visible. If there is water you will suck it out. Then take another peek to make sure that most is gone. It may take a couple times. And maybe, just maybe, you won't find any water. Wouldn't that be great!

BlueSpark · 02-26-2023, 07:00 PM

Oh yes it would. OK I will give this a go tomorrow- and thanks as always

34fordy · 02-26-2023, 07:53 PM

I think I would push a wire down each cylinder first as this would be an easy way to check for water. Would not need to be at absolute BDC to do this.

BlueSpark · 03-03-2023, 04:15 PM

I have obsessed about rust in the cylinders. Turns out it was valid. Got the heads off and lets just say its not a happy day. Again this engine has about 200 miles on it. There is rust in 4 cylinders. Not a big gob but enough to roughen the walls. I am going to take something fine like plastic wool (?) to see how pitted they are. My question now is what did this do to my rings? How rough is too rough? Am I totally screwed? I need help again... and thanks-

BlueSpark · 03-03-2023, 04:29 PM

Oh and I did try to push a wire into the cylinder, it came out with just a bit of the mystery oil I had squirted into the plug holes. What if I put the piston at BDC and took a hone to it? How far can I go? Should I even move the pistons? I will probably be out drinking away my sorrows tonight.

Mike in Mass · 03-03-2023, 05:03 PM

"Not to worry, dear lad " as my Dad used to say .Yes It Sucks that it happened. They dont look THAT BAD to me but im no expert. Get through this bullshit and you'll be having Miles of Smiles in no time . Yes my Dad used to say All that !.

tubman · 03-03-2023, 05:05 PM

When I was a kid, we'd slop all of the water out that we could, put the heads back on and fire it up. We were usually successful.

These days, probably not a good idea.

02-26-2023, 01:40 PM	#1
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	1938 V8 head removal Hey everybody! Help!!! I have a problem and I need some advice from experts. My 1936 pickup (1938 engine) was left out in the rain and snow (not my idea) for a year and unfortunately the air filter filled up with water somehow and evidently it overflowed into the carb. I drained the oil just before discovering this and did not notice any water coming out. This worried me so I took off the intake manifold to stick an inspection camera into the intake ports and it doesnt look good. I have no way of knowing if any made it into the cylinders but I am reluctant to turn the engine over without knowing. This engine was rebuilt about 20 years ago but has been driven only about 200 miles since. So here is my big decision: should I take off the heads to have a look? If I do what kind of problems might I run into? I have nightmares of broken studs or not being able to pry the heads off, or for some reason needing to machine them although I have so idea why that would be necessary. I know about torque, tightening sequence, etc. I can attach photos if its any help.

02-26-2023, 01:58 PM	#2
kurt v Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: summerton, sc Posts: 353	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Take all the nuts off the studs and keep soaking the studs for a day or two, then i tap a thin blade putty knife in the joint to start to get the head lose. i also take a 2x4 and a hammer a just hit all around the head to help jar it loose. Take your time they will come off, just work at it slow. good luck kurt

02-26-2023, 02:12 PM	#3
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Thank you Kurt, it makes me feel more comfortable. I dont suppose I can re-use the head gasket. I see a few different types of those, copper, stainless... Do you have a favorite? And will I need any stuff in a can or tube to put on it? It has seeped a small amount of coolant from around a couple of studs in the past which is just a minor annoyance. There used to be a flathead rebuilder here called Furtados that I heard had a way to solve this, I seem to remember some kind of washer around each stud but that was a long time ago and I didnt know about him when I got the rebuild.

02-26-2023, 02:13 PM	#4
34fordy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Fort dodge, Iowa Posts: 825	Re: 1938 V8 head removal I would remove the sparkplugs and turn the engine over by hand. If there is a great amount of liquid in the cylinders it will push a lot out the exhaust ports. Shine a light down each hole and see what you can. You could rent or borrow a bore scope to take a good look in each cylinder. If it looks ok put in a bit of lubricant to "wet" the walls as you turn it over by hand some more. I would probably try to start it at this point before pulling the heads. If this is not good info some else will follow up with some good ideas. This is all just what I would do. If that engine has almost no miles on the rebuild the gaskets should be good too. IMHO

02-26-2023, 04:22 PM	#7
Ggmac Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Lake worth Florida Posts: 1,101	Re: 1938 V8 head removal In my opinion,Those are probably the valves that were closed and held the water back , well mostly. I would be concerned with other cylinders that had the valves open and did not restrict the water from entering the cyl . Of course all this is determined by the way it was parked , level ground or un level .

02-26-2023, 04:28 PM	#8
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Yeah... Before I knew the air cleaner was full I had to tow it about 5 miles... The water was frozen when I discovered it and I dont know if it was or not during the tow. If any water went into the cylinders would it damage rings, cylinder walls, etc.? Unfortunately it is not possible to see into the cylinders with the camera since the plugs are over the valves, not the pistons.

02-26-2023, 04:54 PM	#9
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,102	Re: 1938 V8 head removal It would be reckless to assume that water did not enter at least a couple of the combustion chambers well before your 5-mile tow. I would go easy with a hammer with or without a two-by-four as it is not unknown that instead of aiding in removing the heads, cracks are introduced into the block as the casting wall thickness can be thin in places.

02-26-2023, 05:23 PM	#10
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Thanks David. Now I can add a crack in the block to my list of nightmares! Would definitely not hit it very hard if I decide to do this, hopefully it will pry off without a hammer since rebuild was recent, at least mileage-wise. Ill spray the studs with liquid wrench in case I decide to do this. So far (including friends and cousin) I have two "just start the thing"s and 3 "if there is rust in there youre screwed"s.

02-26-2023, 05:33 PM	#11
DavidG Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: southeastern Michigan Posts: 10,102	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Sorry to be a scare monger, but my advice is based on what a very experienced engine re-builder did to one of my engines in the process of removing a very reluctant aluminum cylinder head (in pieces).

02-26-2023, 05:35 PM	#12
34fordy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Fort dodge, Iowa Posts: 825	Re: 1938 V8 head removal [QUOTE=BlueSpark Unfortunately it is not possible to see into the cylinders with the camera since the plugs are over the valves, not the pistons. [/QUOTE] With respect. I have a late 38 engine also 4,645,3XX with block off plates and early 21 stud heads. With the plugs removed, each piston at BDC, and using a narrow beam light, I can see the bottom of each piston at the outside lower edge. This way I could see if there is water sitting there. If you do not have a narrow beam light you could just push a piece of 12ga wire down and if water is there it would appear. In your first post you seemed reluctant to pull the heads and I wondered if this was venturing into unchartered waters for you. Once the heads are removed it can be amazing what can show up and the cost can be very high. If you do have cracks as DavidG mentioned and not visible, when you put it together you have gained nothing. That is why I would give it a try after finding no water. Then if you do have problems you will only address them once. All is again only IMHO. There are some extremely knowledgeable folks on here that will have better advice. Sometimes, as in my case, the cost is the major consideration, not the time involved.

02-26-2023, 06:04 PM	#13
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Hi Fordy, I appreciate any and all opinions, dont worry about hurting my feelings! Yes it is uncharted territory for me. I have done all kinds of things on this truck myself successfully. But when I think about getting into an engine or transmission Im convinced a bunch of springs will fly out to be lost forever... Anyway I am going to try your light technique, maybe I gave up too easily.

02-26-2023, 07:00 PM	#15
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Oh yes it would. OK I will give this a go tomorrow- and thanks as always

02-26-2023, 07:53 PM	#16
34fordy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Fort dodge, Iowa Posts: 825	Re: 1938 V8 head removal I think I would push a wire down each cylinder first as this would be an easy way to check for water. Would not need to be at absolute BDC to do this.

03-03-2023, 04:29 PM	#18
BlueSpark Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: San Jose CA Posts: 61	Re: 1938 V8 head removal Oh and I did try to push a wire into the cylinder, it came out with just a bit of the mystery oil I had squirted into the plug holes. What if I put the piston at BDC and took a hone to it? How far can I go? Should I even move the pistons? I will probably be out drinking away my sorrows tonight.

03-03-2023, 05:03 PM	#19
Mike in Mass Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: PLYMOUTH MASS Posts: 860	Re: 1938 V8 head removal "Not to worry, dear lad " as my Dad used to say .Yes It Sucks that it happened. They dont look THAT BAD to me but im no expert. Get through this bullshit and you'll be having Miles of Smiles in no time . Yes my Dad used to say All that !.

03-03-2023, 05:05 PM	#20
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,320	Re: 1938 V8 head removal When I was a kid, we'd slop all of the water out that we could, put the heads back on and fire it up. We were usually successful. These days, probably not a good idea.