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09-09-2020, 10:05 PM | #41 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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09-10-2020, 07:47 AM | #42 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
A partner and I used to run a small company where we would purchase run down cars and part them out. That's back when you could find cars sitting in lots or fields for $50 or $100. When we would strip the car, the title always stayed with the chassis.
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09-10-2020, 08:37 AM | #43 | |||
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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This is probably the last time I am going to discuss this until I hear back from how the lawsuit comes out. I may be called as an expert witness, which is another reason why I am going to stop for now. I will say that based on the determination of legal counsel, the engine number is the prevailing location. The question was asked to me were all frames stamped during assembly? My response was they were supposed to be however I have encountered original vehicles where there was not any evidence of a stamping. The same question was asked about the engine number, -and my answer was I feel very certain that every engine installed on the assembly line had a stamped number. The next question was, which was stamped first? The correct answer is the engine. I think the argument that is made is the frame stamping is an alternate identification area, and the engine is the primary identification area. This is confirmed by what is printed in the Instruction Book. I know some are suggesting it is up to the state's laws. This topic came up in our discussion. A title is a legal document affirming ownership of an object. In our discussion, it was mentioned that a modern vehicle has a VIN displayed on the cowl, -and typically another VIN located on the driver's door. The manufacturer's primary VIN location is on the cowl at the bottom of the windshield, and the driver's door was an alternate location. Their opinion is the Model-A engine was the primary location for the VIN and the frame was an alternate location. Therefore their contention is the title remains with the engine which was the primary location established by Ford. I honestly see no rationale for why some state's DMV feels compelled to use the frame number as a primary source of identification. I think this boils down more to the vehicle owner was ignorant of the law, and so if the DMV told them the title goes with the frame, they just complied. Had their instruction been challenged in a court of law, likely the DMV's instructions would have been overruled. |
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09-10-2020, 10:18 AM | #44 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
I worked for Pete and Jake's building chassis for years and can tell you its an issue here, back in the 90's there was a lot of bills passed to help through SEMA. Missouri title stays with chassis. I had an issue with a '34 where the out of state DMV kept it with the body. At that time the two department officials couldn't agree and Missouri - instead of issuing a new 551 (Drpt of Rev. new ID number) had me file for replacement title. needless to say there are two '34 ford 3 windows using the same vin in the USA.
My '55 Chevy came from Texas, Missouri thats a title/engine year, Texas is reversed, the car had a replacement motor, both again disagreed and we let them settle it out. There is an supervising inspector (recently retired) who says there is no such thing as a chassis without a title in Missouri or vin parts for sale at swap meets, told me a titleless chassis should be surrendered to DMV. later when building a titled vintage Willys with an updated Jeep chassis (both titled) you must surrender the VIN tag to the state inspector for your new form and ID. Recently I restored a vintage wood kit boat, had to retrack the owner after two years because he wrote the bill of sale for the outboard, and boat on one piece of paper, my state says must be to be separate papers, the neighboring state doesnt even need a title. You also need a engine title, that was not available until the 70's so more paperwork, three trips to the inspector to get it done, then they come out with my new metal tag and two 1/4 rivets. I say "hey I brought stainless wood screws". Sorry, the book says metal tag must be pop riveted to the hull, there is no provision for wood boats so thats how it has to be done. They drilled and butchered my African Mahogany and scratched the area, of course it wouldn't work so they taped it on and said to fix it off the property - sorry for the rant - still pissed. I'm a tax paying law abiding supporting citizen but they sure make it difficult for the honest guy. |
09-10-2020, 10:41 AM | #45 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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Charlie Stephens |
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09-10-2020, 11:41 AM | #46 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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A motor vehicle does not exist until it has both a motor and at least a frame, hull, or fuselage to have something that can be defined as a motor vehicle. Both the frame and the motor are essential components. In other words, Ford stamped them both and the mating of the engine to the chassis is what constituted a motor vehicle in the first place. They can argue it till the cows come home but you still can't drive a motor without a chassis. Ford did it that way so that the engines could be shipped to all the different assembly plants as separate components. Mating always happened on the assembly line and that's where they both became the same numbered assembly. I wonder what they would say about a 1932 Ford with the numbers on the frame and the transmission but no number on the engine. Last edited by rotorwrench; 09-10-2020 at 11:56 AM. |
09-10-2020, 06:15 PM | #47 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
In post # 37, I posted "All I can say is, thank goodness we don't have to worry about this stuff here."
The above two posts have reinforced that which leaves me wondering why, if the system is so problematic, do you guys not change it?
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09-10-2020, 06:30 PM | #48 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
title shoud go with the frame.
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09-10-2020, 07:27 PM | #49 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
In a lot of (most) cases the frame number and title number won't be a match...then what???
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09-10-2020, 07:45 PM | #50 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
I wouldn't want to put this dispute in front of a judge. It's hard to predict how she would view it.
Might say there's no "vehicle" by statute, and titles only apply to vehicles. Or, if there is one, it is being parted out (junked?) and the title should be surrendered to the state. Don't know what these guys are paying their attorneys ... $350/hour? ... Hopefully there's more to this story that explains why they both want the title so badly. ( ... car once belonged to Elvis?)
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09-10-2020, 07:49 PM | #51 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
In 1993, CA CHP did not accept my declaration that Ford considered the engine number Was the proper serial number. He insisted that the body be pulled to check the frame even though I told him the motor was original and the cabriolet had been in my family since 1929, and I was changing title from my deceased father to me, same name. When I rebuilt the car I verified the numbers matched, but by then I had a state assigned number riveted on a sheet metal, stamped B pillar cover held in place by a few nails on the wooden B pillar.
In 2010 I purchased a 29 coupe and the number matched the 1930 engine. I went to register it and take it off nonop status at the DMV office. The office registered the car without blinking an eye. The frame was a 1929 number, but not the motor. They did not care and did not ask for a verification and the car is registered under the newer motor’s number, and that motor is in my cabriolet. So it can go either way |
09-10-2020, 08:13 PM | #52 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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I told him 'That's less than minimum wage you need to raise your rates" He just laughed and said NO 225 DOLLARS an hour'!! |
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09-10-2020, 09:52 PM | #53 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
I bought a 1930 Model A coupe from Michigan and imported it to Canada. The car had a V8 Flathead installed in the late 50s and was stored away since 1962. The owner still had the original engine which I declined to buy when it was offered. I acted as my own broker and presented all the required paper work when exporting. Both, state authorities and the federal customs in the US were only concerned if there were any liens on the vehicle and it was legally signed over by the owner with their name on the ownership. They did not request to see the chassis number or the engine number. They did contact the previous owner to verify the sale. Once in Canada, the license bureau only needed the number on the ownership. They didn't care about the engine number or the frame number. All 3 numbers did match though and the same number is now on the new Ontario ownership.
All it takes is a few calls to the appropriate authorities to find out what is expected since every state/province may have varying requirements. Any buyer should have the needed info beforehand. |
09-11-2020, 07:53 AM | #54 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
Charlie Stephens-
I did not give the opinion that it is legal to re-stamp a frame, just that it is easy if the body is off. :-)
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our next Model A is out there in the unknown...... Last edited by Chris in WNC; 09-11-2020 at 08:01 AM. |
09-11-2020, 08:25 AM | #55 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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My post was made to show how the title process can be abused. My first Model A had a phony number stamped on the frame and it went into the CO system, that car was sold to a Florida resident and went into their system. My roadster has an A engine with the engine number ground off and it has a bonded title in CO. My CCPU was purchased in NM and was registered in CO with the engine number. I've since replaced the engine and not bothered to change the registration. If it is sold to a CO resident, there will be no issues. An out of state buyer may have problems. There are 50 different ways to register a Model A. The lawsuit you are referring to will only prevail in the state in which it was filed. In other words, it still won't answer the original question .
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09-11-2020, 09:34 AM | #56 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
I'am sticking with, the title belongs to the person who's name appears on the the title........ If that person decides to turn the title over to the person with the engine ( body,frame,wheels, lug nuts) that's his/hers to decide, or keep the piece of paper.
I would love to be on the jury with this case :-)
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09-12-2020, 09:08 AM | #57 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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09-12-2020, 09:27 AM | #58 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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09-12-2020, 10:11 AM | #59 |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
no matter how it plays out- the opposite can be argued as to being right, so all depends on the day, time and person who rules.
no different then going to your local dmv when they are in the "no" mood. |
09-12-2020, 11:34 AM | #60 | |
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Re: Title goes with Frame or Engine?
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I totally agree. You can have “all your ducks in a row” and just happen to get a grumpy DMV person that will cause you all kinds of grief. Not all DMV people are grumpy, but I tend to get the one that’s having a bad day.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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