Book on Banjo's

[oj]

I'd like a book on how to build a banjo, something comprehensive that shows all the rears and parts breakdowns.
Any suggestions?

[Charlie Stephens]

I would like to suggest you include the year banjo you are working with. Tom Endy did an excellent write up on the Model A/B type banjos on his club web site, http://www.ocmafc.org/techarticles/T...d%20Edited.pdf

Charlie Stephens

[Bob C]

This link is for an article rebuilding a Model A rear end
but it has a lot of pictures and good information.
http://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-conte...vised-2014.pdf

Bob

[oj]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I would like to suggest you include the year banjo you are working with. Tom Endy did an excellent write up on the Model A/B type banjos on his club web site.

Charlie Stephens

I believe my rear is mid-40's, it is open driveshaft. I have the 'green book' and it is not shown. But I have a few others laying around and I'd really like to appreciate them, you know how some people can have a carburetor sit on the shelf for years and another would just take it apart for a looksee? I'm of the latter type.
Was there an authorized Ford manual that dealerships would have used?
Thanks, oj

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

A friend has a Gibson 4 string banjo. I can ask him if he has a book on how to make one. The devil made me do it. Walt

[JSeery]

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All of the shop manuals I have seen have a section on rear axles. Might want to get a manual that also matches up with a car/truck you have or may want to have.

[Lawrie]

The book of V8 service bulletins has a good section on rebuilding them.
Lawrie

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by oj

I believe my rear is mid-40's, it is open driveshaft. I have the 'green book' and it is not shown. But I have a few others laying around and I'd really like to appreciate them, you know how some people can have a carburetor sit on the shelf for years and another would just take it apart for a looksee? I'm of the latter type.
Was there an authorized Ford manual that dealerships would have used?
Thanks, oj

The open drive one is on page 113 in the green book.

Bob

[banjoQ]

Oh Geez! I gotta go with Walt on this one! There are lot's of books on Banjo's, and some really good ones for Ford banjo's too. The Ford's might be a bit easier. Funny thing, the pre war ones are the Holy Grails we look for. A lot like our cars and trucks. Pick'em if ya got em'

[Ray Balukas]

Good one Walt!

[oj]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

A friend has a Gibson 4 string banjo. I can ask him if he has a book on how to make one. The devil made me do it. Walt

I hope you lost sleep over that one Walt, that ain't right.

[QUOTE=Bob C;1079373][COLOR=Black]The open drive one is on page 113 in the green book.

You're right, for some reason I didn't recognize it and was thinking it was the bigger rear with the gussets like on the page before.

[Bob NH]

Walt, I'm trying to picture how a fellow would hold a rear end under his arm and strum a torque tube ? Please send a picture !

[63tango]

Originally Posted by Walt Dupont--Me.

A friend has a Gibson 4 string banjo. I can ask him if he has a book on how to make one. The devil made me do it. Walt

You beat me to it. I was gonna ask 4 or 5 string. Lol.

[Talkwrench]

The article by Tom Endy is great but not as good as Lawrie standing next to you...

[JM 35 Sedan]

I've never seen a good instuction book solely dedicated to rebuilding a Ford banjo rearend, only a page or two in service or repair manuals. This might be a great idea for someone to do like Mac Van Pelt did on the early Ford transmissions.

In addition to the writeup done on the Model A, here is another good instructional post that was done on the H.A.M.B. I am not sure, but you may need to be a member to view the pictures.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...o-axle.812569/

ps...Walt's post "cracked me up" . I wish we could have gotten him to do some picking on a Gibson when we visited his shop a couple years ago on the Barners NE Tour.

[johndee138]

Thanks for that link.JM 35 Sedan
I have searched in vain for a long time and thought it had disappeared!

[russcc]

Off topic, but Walt got the ball rolling. If you are interested in Banjos you may want to read Jim Bollman's book, "America's Instrument, "The Banjo in the 19th Century". From the early hand made ones on the plantation to the pinnacle of manufacturing, the Boston banjos. Excellent photographs of extant banjo's from the 1st commercially manufactured banjo, the 5 string Boucher, ca 1850's, to the crowning achievement of banjo manufacturing, the Fairbanks "Electrics", ca 1890's

[bobH]

Here's another post, for anyone who enjoys Mike Flanagan's prose. This was copied from Ahooga...
The hamb reference above is much more 'polished', and is full of good info. I could 'subscribe' to most of what is in the hamb post, although there is one 'deviation' that I am very firm about, so I have my own way of doing it.
From Mike....

I hearda rumor, two in fact.
One was that someone was looking for my narrative on doing the rear end Big Daddies Way and the other was that I am a nice guy.
I asked Big Daddy was it ok if I let ya'll read this and he didn't say it wasn't... he don't say much, jest sits in the shop in his Urn behind the pitcher of the 1919 Olds he restored. Probably cussin' me for dat... I know he cussed dat Olds plenty.
Follows is Big Daddies way and as for the second rumor I'll leave it to you. But if making in making your decision keep in mind my therapist fired me, said don't come back no more no more hit the road Jack... and doncha come back no more. Thas whadde said, I kid you not! And I was payin' him to visit widme!
Willie Nelson said he was saddened by Ray Charles passing... but one good thing about it hesaid, he didn't have to lose to him at chess nomore... said Ray never wood let him turn the lights on.
If this is not what yer lookin' for let me know, I got this... stuff runnin' out my ears.
Rebuilding the Ford three piece "Banjo" differential…
Rebuilding a three-piece "banjo" ford differential is no fit job for "man nor beast" but I have been asked so I will take a stab at it. I have only my memory of rebuilding one with Big Daddy but as always I also have neither fear nor any research and like the man said, "historians that proceed without fear and without research do so at their peril". I have never been one to fear sticking my face out, so to speak and I also have absolutely no research on the subject so, from memory, here goes. My introduction to this daunting task was a rebuild of an A differential with Big Daddy at my shoulder. We had big plans for the two of us and the Model A but unfortunately cancer got in the way.
The following is "His Way" as I recall it and I have used this method on more than a "brace" of A differentials since and all with good results. The first step in a long and tedious walk is to first bolt the banjo and the horns (axle housings) together with the races inthere and the carrier inthere and with bearings onthere but no shims (gaskets) between the horns and the banjo. And no pinion gear inthere either. Using four bolts on a side at quarter points around the circle snug the horns up to the banjo barely wrench tight proceeding carefully and checking the carrier for motion continually. This step can be accomplished with or without the ring gear in place.
You are looking for the carrier to lock up inthere, at some point in the tightening of the axle housing bolts, with no shims. As soon as you know that it will lockup then take the four bolts on each side back out and pull the horns off. If it never does lockup and the bolts are tight with the horns and the banjo steel to steel then you gotta start pressing the races back out of the horns, inserting steel shims and reinstalling the races in the axle housing. That or shim behind the bearings on the carrier but I prefer the former. Then the process of testing the fit of the carrier begins anew. Once a point is reached that locks up the carrier that portion of the task is finished.
The carrier and the ring gear can now be joined. Now that we know the carrier will lockup we must assemble an amount of shims (the shims of which I speak are the gaskets, they come in thickness of .010 and .006) such that, when applied to each side of the banjo and the axle horns bolted to the banjo with the carrier inside will allow the carrier to be turned with an amount of preload that was generally the preference of the individual mechanic involved. With new bearings and races Big Daddy liked 5 lbs of pull to be required to move the carrier with the shims in place.
He measured this with an old fishing scale and a piece of string tied around the ring gear and fed through the gear lube input hole and arranged so that it pulled on the very circumference of the ring gear. It is my guess that 5 lbs. was the "magic" number "because"... that is the reason he gave me for it in any event so that is the reason you will have to live with.
I tend to like a little less than five but will not admit that to him when next we meet. In any event an even number of shims on both sides comprised of both the .010 and .006 shims with the bolts tight and the carrier with ring gear attached and able to be moved at whatever preload the individual prefers is the ideal situation for this portion of the rebuild. And it is best to have shims of both sizes on each side to work with. If you have but one shim on each side then you need to remove the races and fashion two shims of .015 from steel machinists shim stock and put them behind the race shimming the horns out a little.
At this point the pinion-bearing cup can be installed in the banjo. This is done with no shims as was the races in the axle housings. It is best to start with no extra shims and hope for the best was his view and I share it. As it is of no consequence to undo it the preload for the pinion is set now before the first trial run of the carrier with the ring gear installed.
Since I had no inch pound torque wrench I decided the best alternative to a torque wrench was to clamp the drive shaft in a pipe vise with the banjo extending out from the vise. Rolling the banjo to a horizontal position I measured the distance from the center of the drive shaft to the edge of the banjo. With this dimension in hand I was able to calculate the amount of hanging weight that would be required to verify 20 inch pounds of preload. Memory tells me this is very close to 4 lbs. I have a piece of angle iron cut to my exact calculated weight laying in wait for my next rear end rebuild in the drawer I keep for my "homebrew" Model A tools.
With the banjo horizontal I tighten the large nut to the point that the banjo resists rolling back to vertical. I then hang the weight from the edge of the banjo and begin to loosen the nut. At the exact instant the banjo begins to move towards vertical the preload is 20 inch pounds. I set the lock plate in place and tighten the locknut but do not bend the washer tabs at this point.
I now install the carrier in the banjo with the ring gear meshed with the pinion gear. The ring gear has been given a liberal coating of Prussian blue hi-spot indicator on every other tooth. At this point I install the predetermined amount of shims with equal thickness on both sides of the axle horns and mate them to the banjo. I install bolts in all holes and tighten them to wrench tight just ensuring I have tight fit against the shims and that there is no undetected gap between the mating surfaces of the horns and the banjo.
Now it is simply a matter of turning the drive shaft 3.78 revolutions, which will carry it through the entirety of the circumference of the ring gear and then remove the right side axle horn to observe the Prussian blue to determine if the wipe marks we left with the pinion gear are adequate. Here we are looking for a wipe mark that is in the center of the tooth on the ring gear in both directions. If this is not the case then we must begin adjusting either the pinion or the ring gear and carrier to move the mark accordingly. I actually would rather see the mark just a little bit towards the engine but that is my preference.
If the mark is too far towards the top of the tooth it means that the pinion gear must be moved away from the engine. Too low and it must be moved towards the engine. As the race installs from the inside of the banjo the hope is that the move, if necessary, is away from the engine. This requires steel shims (homemade). If it is towards the engine then it is left to the mechanics discretion on how best to achieve this. Generally this does not occur.
Most often the carrier requires movement either towards or away from the ring gear. Obviously removing the shims the mechanic believes from his experience will move the carrier the distance he desires from one side and inserting it in the other side does this. It is essential that the net thickness of shims be kept the same as was determined to be correct earlier in the re-build. It matters not if shims are moved from one side of the banjo to the other as long as none find a place on the floor. This would change the preload of the carrier bearings.
Now the Prussian blue is re applied and the axle horns are assembled to the banjo once again and the bolts inserted and tightened wrench tight to assure no gaps in the mating surfaces. Again the drive shaft is revolved through 3.78 (or the correct ratio) and once again the right side horn is removed and the blue is inspected.
If you are equal parts good and lucky this is it. The marks are in the right spot and the Ford mechanic of the times could look at the blue and tell you exactly how much lash was inthere. Me, I gotta feel it for myself. Dad spent several minutes giving me the feel in the end of the drive shaft. "Feel it he'd say, Feel it and remember it." I did and I have not had a bad one yet.
The rest is easy, set the keepers on the pinion gear nuts, final tighten the differential bolts. These bolts are a special thread that is just enuf different from the thread in the banjo so as to not allow themselves to be installed by hand... do not use a tap and clean up the holes or you ruin the banjo, likewise do not die nut the bolts or they will be ruined. This is done for a reason... no leaks and no lock washers.
This is from memory and I hope is accurate in sequence as the exact notes as I transcribed them that day are lost to the sands of time and a careless nature with paper.
In the days of old when knights were bold... the Ford Mechanics would fight one another to make sure they didn't get the rear ends. Then, as now, things were done on flat rate. You had x number of hours to do a rear end and memory says it was 8 including R & R. Almost an impossibility. But a good service manager would weigh the differences and the guy that had to fight an ill fitting differential for two days would get the next three water pumps. Because he had 3 hours in each pump and we all know it doesn’t take 3 hours to R&R a water pump including rebuild and they didn’t have to rebuild… they slipped on a new one. Dad got in on the end of the A as general transportation era right after WWII and thru such veteran Ford mechanics as Ted Montana learned the way they did it. I think they were a different and wonderful bunch and would have loved to have had the honor to get to know them and their methods. I did meet Ted and he asked if Dad had shown me how to do a differential. I said he had and Ted said to "watch the man that says he can put a Ford differential together in two moves and get it right... 'cause he'll lie to you about something else too", his words not mine.
Keep in mind I know of nobody that does it this way and I know of several folks that can put them together on their knees on the garage floor with the dog yapping, the wife naggin’ and the dryer churnin’ for all it’s worth and get it in one move and get'em "perfect evertime"... and to those folks you have my undying admiration.
God Speed Under 50
The Model A Foole

[Cool Kat with Hot Car]

Now that is a classic post!

[Graeme / New Zealand]

Originally Posted by Bob NH

Walt, I'm trying to picture how a fellow would hold a rear end under his arm and strum a torque tube ? Please send a picture !

Holding a rear end under his arm in banjo country sounds like it on its way to Deliverance.

GB