Snyder's New Catalog Came...and a Warning!

[stickshift]

Jeff, after reading your post I thought you were from California...not Illinois. The country is going to He!! in a handbasket. Drill baby drill!

One more thing...If you want to buy a riding lawn mower out here in Sunny California you better like recharging. Same with chainsaws...better bring a generator to the woods to charge your batteries. Oh yea, no more gas generators. Who ever heard of an electric generator, what's the point?

[Hitman]

I thought this was a model a site, and the topic was the newly released Snyder's catalog.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Hitman

I thought this was a model a site, and the topic was the newly released Snyder's catalog.

-
Re-read both the title of this thread and what was said in post #1 with regard to Snyder's warning comments on parts availability.

[Banditorama]

Speaking of hoarding parts, not Model A but Willys Jeep story...

When I was a kid my dad was into old Willys jeeps. We used to buy parts from this old man who had several acres of shipping containers filled with stuff. Anything you could need NOS parts or taken off donor cars, rare accessories, etc..

He ended up dying and guess what his kids did with it all?? Straight to the junkyard, no auction, no warning to anyone. They probably threw away hundreds of thousands of dollars of stuff that isn't available anymore

That's more or less how I ended up with my Model A. The father died and his son took it to the local auction house. Idk the history of the car, but it was restored at one point and obviously sat for a while. I paid $6,500 for it. But compared to what I've seen on the market, I'd say it was worth quite a bit more. Cosmetically it was in great shape, just needed what you'd expect from a car that has sat for a while

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by Banditorama

He ended up dying and guess what his kids did with it all?? Straight to the junkyard, no auction, no warning to anyone. They probably threw away hundreds of thousands of dollars of stuff that isn't available anymore

I think there's a point at which the collection becomes so large that it's actually more likely to be junked. Whoever is saddled with it has to either scrap it or dedicate some huge number of hours to sorting it out, so they choose to scrap.

[oldspert]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Lucky that Stacy Browns lot was sold to other places that was in the old parts business.

[stickshift]

I think everyone is a parts hoarder in some way. When I was in my early 20's I lived near Newark Ca. while attending college and they had one recylcling yard after another out near the bay. I would spend my Saturdays looking at what new cars came in and taking parts whether I needed them or not. I was thinking I wouldn't have the chance later. At that time I only had my '64 Dodge and '57 Ford and I still have both those cars and all the parts I collected. I don't recall ever seeing any Model A's in those yards. The only reason I got interested in A's at this point in my life is the stories I remembered from my Father and Grandfather when I was a small boy. There was an A in the parking lot in high school but it had a Boss 302 engine and he was the burnout king. These cars are getting so old now, that ordinary people don't know the difference between a Model T and a Model A, let alone the year it was made. Cars and parts are only worth what people are willing to pay. As long as we can keep the interest alive, there will be a demand for parts and Model A's. So, lets keep a high profile and keep driving your cars around and when people ask "Is that a model T"? Just smile and tell them it's an A.

[larry harding]

i've been in the hit&miss hobby for nearly 40 years and am friend with one of the suppliers for that hobby and have heard him talk about the difficulty of getting repop parts made.
the same goes for the antique car parts i'm sure, if you want 200,000 made no problem. it ain't worth the trouble to make 50 or 25.

[Fullraceflathead]

I got my catalog yesterday!!!

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by ModelA29

In truth the hobby is dying. The young want little FWD econo cars with computer dashboards. The number of people under 50 looking for a Model A are generally looking to cut it up for a hot rod - the world no longer travels at 40mph. Mechanics now are parts swappers and only then what the diagnostic computer tells them.

From my perspective as a professional in the hobby, I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth as far as this hobby dying.

I have been involved in the hobby for about 64 years as a hobbyist, and then as a professional restorer since about 1997. The biggest thing that I have seen change over the last 3-4 decades is the ability of the average hobbyist to do the work on their vehicle. While this may seems troubling, ...look at how many hobbyist throughout the entire automotive world (-owners of tuner cars, muscle cars, diesel pickups, UTV side-by-sides, motorcycles, RVs, boats, watercraft, collector cars, etc.) 'hire' their work done. Seemingly, no one today has the resources, the skill sets, nor the problem-solving abilities to work on Model-As, ...or any of those other types of vehicles mentioned above. I think it will all work out in the end.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

The biggest thing that I have seen change over the last 3-4 decades is the ability of the average hobbyist to do the work on their vehicle.

The most straightforward explanation for this is declining employment in trades where someone would learn how to do that work. The peak of US manufacturing employment was 1979. Between 1979 and 2010, the number of people employed in manufacturing in the US dropped by 50%. During that time, a lot of tasks became automated, so there would have been an even greater drop in the number of jobs requiring any sort of hands-on metal fabrication, paint, or upholstery skills. Furthermore, the computer-controlled machine tools that the current generation does know how to use are expensive to acquire for hobbyist use, which further restricts the transferability of those skills.

I think the transition we're seeing can be described as a shift from people who are in the hobby because it's something they can do (as in, the cars are cheap and they already have the skill set) to people who are in it because it's something they want to do (as in, an aesthetic appreciation for the cars and/or a desire to get away from their "desk job" skill set and work with their hands). That second group is going to expect to outsource high-skill tasks. They'll still be cheapskates about it, of course.

I'm personally on the fence about the future of parts availability, because on the one hand we clearly are seeing a generation passing away. But on the other hand, as I mentioned and as Brent notes, a much greater proportion of hobbyists are unable to do restoration work themselves. That means there will be a market for professional restorers and builders of parts like horns, carbs, distributors, speedos, etc. It's certainly conceivable that a new generation of specialists could step into the breach within a few years.

[Banditorama]

If I was paying someone hourly labor to do all the work I've put into mine, I couldn't justify owning it. I'd probably be $20k to $30k deep in just labor costs. My car wasn't even in bad shape. Its just meticulously going over everything, fabricating little bits here and there, or repairing things you can't buy anymore takes a lot more time than you'd think.

As someone well under the age of 50, the appeal of this car for me is that its a really cool car that I was able to get onto the road for <$10k. As much as I love this car, I wouldn't even dream of dropping $30k on it. Which is why it I find it is concerning that so many able-bodied people aren't capable of doing their own work.

Then with the whole parts issue. I hate to say it, but I think if you do get a new generation of parts dealers, they're going to be outsourcing the manufacturing to China or the third world. You can't compete with their labor and everyone wants everything at rock bottom prices. To get started here in the states would cost an absolute fortune, between the machinery, skilled operators, etc.. That's a lot of money to invest into a market with a questionable future.

Isn't the only guy who sells new engine blocks doing all his manufacturing overseas in China?

[rackops]

Originally Posted by alexiskai

I think the transition we're seeing can be described as a shift from people who are in the hobby because it's something they can do (as in, the cars are cheap and they already have the skill set) to people who are in it because it's something they want to do (as in, an aesthetic appreciation for the cars and/or a desire to get away from their "desk job" skill set and work with their hands). That second group is going to expect to outsource high-skill tasks. They'll still be cheapskates about it, of course.

That's well stated. Personally, I'm in the second category, though perhaps not too cheap. However, there are some things I'm not comfortable doing because I don't have the skillset, like rebuilding an engine. It's not impossible for someone to do, but I'd rather pay a pro and have it done right than do it myself and hope for the best.

Back on topic though (which is funny because this thread has already been accused of getting off-topic) in my direct experience, I've found it's not impossible to have parts made...but the cost is excessive for the numbers desired. I was working with a US-based supplier to create 3D-printed floormats for my Phaeton. They could do it...but at $300 apiece. Pretty tough to move that concept forward when most people would never consider paying that for floormats.

I'm not doom and gloom, but am realistic in thinking that these cars are going to be more expensive to maintain and restore in the future.

[alexiskai]

Originally Posted by rackops

I'm not doom and gloom, but am realistic in thinking that these cars are going to be more expensive to maintain and restore in the future.

An interesting sidenote is that the cars themselves have not appreciated in value once you account for inflation. I was just looking through an obscure hobbyist magazine from 1984 (A Model News, published out of Hendersonville NC) and the prices in the classifieds, adjusted for 40 years of inflation, are basically in line with the prices people want now.

[Tom F OHIO]

These Model A Suppliers are probably just eating this thread up.

[David in San Antonio]

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.
- Yogi Berra

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Tom F OHIO

These Model A Suppliers are probably just eating this thread up.

Meaning what?? Although it has obviously become very apparent in recent times that the supply of many parts is rapidly dwindling, I personally appreciate Snyder's heads up of the facts to anyone who is so out of touch with reality so as to not be aware of the situation. Are you actually suggesting that the suppliers are actually more eager to have short term gains coupled with an ever dwindling source of inventory rather than long term viability?

[ronn]

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.
- Yogi Berra

stolen from Neil Bohrs in the 1920s............... lol

[Clem Clement]

When i was touring in my A, I carried many spare parts for the group. It kept is touring and I never charged for the parts.
Clem

[zwomack]

This is going to be a short essay, so bear with me...
For a TLDR: It's not all doom and gloom. If the Model A Parts industry modernizes (which can be done by a 20 year old with CAD skills sitting at home on their PC), everything will continue on indefinitely.

As far as 'young people aren't interested in this hobby', I can guarantee you that isn't true. I was born in '94, and the overwhelming majority of my friends are between 25-35. All of them share a similar issue preventing them from getting into the automotive hobby:
To get into a hobby like this you need 3 things: free time, money, and a place to keep/work on the car. Let us assume they have a decent job, and no other obligations (AKA they have the time and money, which already cuts out half the population). They would still need a house (preferably with a garage) to put the car in. The average price of a home in the US is pushing $500k! How is a 25 year old supposed to pay a mortgage for that *and* buy a project car, when getting a 2020 Nissan Altima for $20k is barely achievable? They aren't going to get a project car so it can sit in the parking lot of their apartment complex.

With that aside, here is the actual reason i write this post:
I work in a manufacturing plant here in the US. We are 'low rate, large build' (as in, we make 50 of something really big, not 500k of something really small). ~25 years ago, there were close to 15k people working here. Now, there are just over 4k. (To be clear, there is more like 6k, but 1.5k of that started working from home when Covid happened). 25 years ago, most of the manufacturing (riveting, drilling, etc) was done by hand in plant. Now it is done by a machine. There is still plenty of work, but that work is doing CAD to drive the machines automatically, instead of driving the machines manually.
To put it bluntly, the machines work faster, and produce a higher quality product, than a human. The human body just can't complete with a 2 million dollar 5 Axis Mill.
BUT, to enable that machine to do the work, we had to make NC programs for the part being fabricated. This took significant time and effort. But now we have a digital definition of what that part is. Once you have that, you don't need to rely on the one person who knows how to build it wanting to retire.

If 'someone' was to take that time and build a 3d Model of a part in a Model A, you could just Send-Cut-Send that part if you ever needed it. If we had a library of all that parts in a Model A, you could get any part, on demand.
More realistically, someone could start a new "Model A Parts Supplier" company. They would not actually fabricate anything, they would just be a 3d Designer. If someone orders a part they don't have modeled (AKA every part when they first start out), they spend the next 24-48 working hours to build a 3d Model of the part using Ford Spec Sheets. Then, they send the design off to Send-Cut-Send to fab the part. Will that part fit right? Short answer: If the design sent to be fab'd is correct, the part will fit. If it was designed poorly, then not so much... It may take several revision to get a part that doesn't need hand fitting to install, but that comes down to the skill of the designer, and the accuracy of the Ford Spec Sheets.

What does that mean for us, the hobbyists, if this happens:
Will things be more expensive? Yes. The price per part of building ONE of something costs more than building 500 of something.
Could someone do this, today, without investing a bunch of money in tooling? Yes. Literally anyone with CAD skills and free time could do this.
Will Parts be available indefinitely, once they are digitized? Yes. It may cost you $50 to get a bracket that should be $5, but you CAN get it.