Shifting Problem

[Paul in Colorado]

I recently replaced the engine, clutch and pressure plate and put new bearings in the transmission in my 1930 Town Sedan. Everything seems to be fine, except that, if I put it into neutral and let out the clutch at a stop light, the gears are still turning when I disengage the clutch and wait 30 seconds or so and try to put it into gear. They clash when I try to go into gear. Before the overhaul, and in my 1930 coupe, the gears stopped turning much sooner, within about 30 seconds. I assume that this is the cluster gear still turning. The clutch pedal play is about one inch, and the transmission is filled with fresh 600W from Bert's. Normal shifting is fine, and I can go into low immediately when I stop, and keep the clutch disengaged until the light changes with no problems. Temperatures here have been in the 90's, but I have not had this problem on hot days in the past. Any suggestions? Do I need a thicker transmission fluid?

Paul

[Mitch//pa]

is your base idle to high?

[Paul in Colorado]

The idle speed is in the normal range - about the same that I have always used on both cars. I don't know the exact rpm.

Paul

[TinCup]

Idle was my first thought but if you have it between 5-700 you should be OK.

[Tom Endy]

I suspect your clutch is not fully releasing. When you installed the new clutch and pressure plate did you check the adjustment of the fingers on the pressure plate? They are notorious for coming from the supplier out of adjustment. Each of the fingers should be between 3\4" and 5\8" (11\16" being nominal) measured from the rear surface of the pressure plate to each finger. All the fingers should be even. It is still possible to adjust them while installed in the car. Take the inspection cover off the back of the bell housing. Make yourself up some kind of a "T" shaped tool with the dimension you want. With a screwdriver and a box wrench you can adjust the fingers. Rotate the engine to put each finger to the top for adjustment. You may have to break the swage on each stud to get them to turn. When finished put a drop of strong lock tight on each of the studs.

Tom Endy

[Mitch//pa]

if you didnt use a modern pressure plate and have the adj fingers what tom said should fix it up

[Ned]

Did you replace the pilot bearing in the flywheel? If not, it may be dragging.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

if you didnt use a modern pressure plate and have the adj fingers what tom said should fix it up

Mitch, by modern, do you mean a daiphram pressure plate?
If so, are any made that will be a direct bolt in?

[Paul in Colorado]

The Pilot bearing, and the Throwout bearing and spring, are both new. The clutch disc and pressure plate are new and standard, from Berts. The clutch operates smoothly in regular driving and shifting seems normal. Upshifts require the normal wait to shift smoothly. Downshifts are normal with double clutching.

Paul

[TinCup]

Try to set the idle lower and see what happens.

[columbiA]

I have found that some of the new discs are slightly thicker than they should be.Try adjusting for a little less free play.As long as the release brg doesnt turn when clutch is released,it should be OK.

[OC Dave]

Paul,

I have a 1930 Tudor Sedan that does the same thing. It has been that way since I've owned it. Unfortunately, I'm not mechanically inclined, so this is beyond me. I'd be very interested in how you finally resolve the problem so I can try to find someone locally who could do that for me. Sorry I can't help, but I just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one to see this behavior. Everyone I talked to never heard of such a thing, so I was feeling like I was the only one and just kind of gave up on it.

Dave

[Paul in Colorado]

Thanks for the suggestions. It may be a while before I can look into them, but I will try to let you know what I find.

Paul

[Paul in Colorado]

Final update - I adjusted the clutch to reduce the free travel to 3/4 inch, and reduced the idle speed. These helped a little, but the problem was still there. As I have driven it (I now have over 300 miles on the rebuild) the time for the gears to slow down has decreased. I think it just took some time for the 600W to work its way into the needle bearings to slow down the cluster gear.

Paul

[wi0v]

I had a similar problem. The clutch plate was not sliding on the trans input shaft. Using a lite oil similar to WD30 you can reach down thru the inspection plate and with the extention on the WD30 you can put a small amount on the clutch plate hub, the splines if you can. Difficult to tell exactly what you're doing but and be sure you only put a small amount on the hub area and don't get it on the face of the plate. It fixed my problem.

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by columbiA

I have found that some of the new discs are slightly thicker than they should be. Try adjusting for a little less free play. As long as the release brg doesn’t turn when clutch is released, it should be OK.

I have notice the pads on the disc are held slightly away from the internal disc. I’d need to show a picture of what I am trying to describe….I may add one later today. This makes the disc thicker. After a couple hundred to thousand miles, the pads hold closer to the internal disc resulting in a thinner disc. The heat generated as it is used is probably what causes the relaxation. Columbia's suggestion has worked for me numerous times. You will need to adjust the clutch at about 1000 miles to get the free play back to spec. I consider this normal for the components we are working with.
My most recent discs came from Snyder's but others have been the same in the last two years.
Good Day!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Why do many feel that clutch rebuilders dont give a s**t about adjusting the pressure plate fingers correctly?? I worked part time for a rebuilder & that adjustment was the last & most important step & was done much more precisely than trying to do it in the car!! He didn't want immediate "come backs" caused by poor adjustments!! Relined discs are aligned by "eye" while spun on a pilot shaft & bearing & sometimes require a little "wear in" to even out the friction surface. I feel that many clutch "release" problems are caused by installation errors, such as "tweeking" the disc while stabbing engine to trans, inproper clutch adjustment, or drivers not knowing how to drive properly with an OLD design NON-SYNCHRO transmission. If any want to jump on my "case"about my observations, HAVE AT IT! Bill W.

[Dick M]

If my memory serves me correctly, the pressure plate has to be bolted to the flywheel with disk installed in order to adjust the fingers.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Dick M

If my memory serves me correctly, the pressure plate has to be bolted to the flywheel with disk installed in order to adjust the fingers.

Dick,
Professional clutch rebuilding table is round, heavy cast iron, with facility to lock pressure plate down, and a shaft down through the center with a substitute t.o. brg. to operate the pressure plate fingers through the complete range of motion. While released, 3 metal slides go under the pressure plate, duplicating the thickness of the clutch disc. Pressure plate fingers are released & then fingers are adjusted to proper height, according to a spec. chart.
Before this, all components are disassembled, hot tanked & bead blasted, worn pivots, adjusting nuts, etc, are replaced with new parts. Springs are tested & installed in matching sets, or a new set. Presssure plate surface is precision machined.
Some must think that clutches are crudely rebuilt on rough old 2 x 12 wood benches with a hammer, punches, a crescent wrench, etc, by some DANGEROUS "fly by night mechanic."
Do some research on how they are really rebuilt & the FINE equipment used to do the job.
Use care when mating an engine to a transmission in order to keep from "tweeking" the clutch disc & causing it to wobble and not to release well & it might also cause chattering of the clutch. The use of at least 3 long pilot studs screwed into flywheel housing is a great help & keep an equal distance all around between the transmission bell & the flywheel housing. Then, turn the pilot shaft to engage into the disc, then slide in gently, keeping the space between the trans bell & the flywleel housing equal at all times, then, "CLUNK," she's in!
Bill W.

[redmodelt]

I think the clutch rebuilding plate we use for assembly and setup is KR Wilson. I set mine to use new disk as a guide and spend more then a little time setting the fingers before locking down the nuts that are made for staking. The clutch face is checked for run out and cleaned up. We do reuse the fiber disks with new clutch springs installed and fingers are cleaned up on a jig if worn from throwout bearing as part of our rebuild.