The Ford Barn

daren007 · 03-18-2016, 05:44 PM

Is the Model A flywheel indexed. Is it possible to install it incorrectly. I would not think it could be done...........but.

Daren

Patrick L. · 03-18-2016, 06:08 PM

What are you trying to do ?

The flywheel will go 2 ways. If you are using the one that came off the engine look it over as there may be alignment marks on the wheel and crankshaft from someone that previously had the wheel off for some reason.

I had that issue with mine. For years the clutch would shake your dentures loose. Once I decided to fix that problem I ' Sharpied' the wheel and crank and when I went to adjust the pressure plate fingers while it was on the bench I noticed some old prick punch marks on the back side of the wheel. I looked at the crank and there were corresponding marks on the block side of the flange. Of course they were opposite [180º] of the ones I marked with the Sharpie.
The engine also had a vibration, but, it wasn't that bad. You knew it was there. I took a chance and decided to install the wheel according to the punch marks. The engine runs much smoother.

daren007 · 03-18-2016, 09:24 PM

I had the flywheel off. I do not remember if I had vibration issues before I removed it. I had just bought the car as a project and basically drove it from the trailer to the shop. I have a real bad vibration and it sounds like what you were dealing with. I installed the flywheel thinking it would only go one way so I never checked. I am on the understanding that the flywheel is balanced separately from the crank. If so it should not matter if it is 180 out (should not) however I understand that if the crank and flywheel were balanced as a unit then they should be reassembled as such.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-18-2016, 11:05 PM

Normally a very close look at the mating surface will show some marks (stains) to indicate how it was originally placed.

katy · 03-19-2016, 10:06 AM

Quote:

I have a real bad vibration

Have you checked for the two .010" shims between the top of the flywheel housing and the back of the block?

Patrick L. · 03-19-2016, 10:21 AM

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OK, so when you say you have a bad vibration, are you talking about an engine vibration or a bad clutch chatter ? I'm assuming you mean engine.

If you have a clutch chatter, then thats a different animal.

daren007 · 03-22-2016, 09:20 PM

Engine vibration. Over the weekend I pulled the rear end and clutch housing. Started her up and still had the same vibration. Next I removed the clutch and ran it. Same vibration. Rotated the flywheel 180. Same vibration. Just off idle it starts and of course gets worse with an increase of rpm. It is a course/rough vibration. The engine is a Long Beech rebuild so I would think the quality would be there but.... When I drive the car anything above 30 mph gets bad. 45 is about all I want to go as I worry about damage to the crank, Bearings etc. I can get it up to 55 but it does not like it (neither do I). I know about the float a Ford etc. but those are only band aids on the real problem. I can get the crank, Rods, Flywheel and clutch balanced but do you think it will eliminate the problem? I am open to all suggestions. This car is not fun to drive. Daren

Patrick L. · 03-23-2016, 07:42 AM

Well, these monster do vibrate some. But, probably not as much as yours.

If you have some one in your area that can balance, how about having the flywheel and clutch ass. balanced and give that a try.

Some folks have said in the past they have reduced their vibration by loosening the front mount bolts.

JohnLaVoy · 03-23-2016, 09:02 AM

If you removed the flywheel was there a problem that has been fixed? Of was this just for investigation? There are two "studs or pins" on the crank that the flywheel needs to be aligned with are they there? Then you have to confirm that the flywheel is set against the crank squarely and on the two studs. If you are a little out of one side it will cause the type of vibration you are talking about. BUt of course this means that you have to have access to the center of the fly wheel which means the engine needs to come back out of the car.

Tom Wesenberg · 03-23-2016, 09:13 AM

If the rear main isn't ground to the exact center for the flywheel, then you will have a paint shaker, and balancing the flywheel by itself will do no good.

Kevin in NJ · 03-23-2016, 09:46 AM

Usually the engines are not built to tight enough standards.

From the factory the rods were +- 1 gram at each end, the piston rod unit were within 4 grams.
The crank was ground to tight tolerances with the mains on center and the flywheel less than .001" from center. Both were dynamically balanced.

Today the rods are often within 5 grams total weight. Pistons can be all over the place. Grinders may get centerlines and throws off center and out of place. The flywheels can be way out, we have crank that is .008" out on the flywheel.

So you can have a pile of issues on an engine if the builder was not accurate in the build.

The best thing is to pretend you are building a race car engine. Then you will be building it like Henry did on the line.

daren007 · 03-23-2016, 11:23 AM

The flywheel is indexed properly to the crankshaft on the dowels. The flange and flywheel are clean and mate up. This thing is definitely a "paint Shaker". I can handle it around town but on the road it is no fun. I will deal with it for the summer but come fall out she comes. I have a local machine shop that does Model A and T Babbitt and balancing. They have been doing it for years so I will lay it in their lap and hope for the best. Thanks for the reply's. Daren

Tom Wesenberg · 03-23-2016, 06:17 PM

Hope the babbit isn't destroyed before the crank comes out. Make sure the crank is centered on the flywheel mounting circumference, and not the center in the rear end of the crankshaft.

harleytoprock · 03-23-2016, 07:29 PM

Have you put a dial indicator on the crankshaft flywheel flange to check for run out?

Tom Wesenberg · 03-23-2016, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harleytoprock

Have you put a dial indicator on the crankshaft flywheel flange to check for run out?

Yes, that would be the first check to make before tearing the engine apart.

daren007 · 03-24-2016, 08:52 PM

The car is back together. I plan on driving it for the summer just take it easy. This fall I will start over. With the flywheel on the dowels I do not see how it could be installed in correctly. But then again.. I did not dial the crank flange (damn). I suspect the crank flange is not concentric to the center line. I guess I will have to take a chance with the Babbitt. Daren

03-18-2016, 05:44 PM	#1
daren007 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Saint Cloud Mn Posts: 745	Model A flywheel Is the Model A flywheel indexed. Is it possible to install it incorrectly. I would not think it could be done...........but. Daren

03-18-2016, 06:08 PM	#2
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Model A flywheel What are you trying to do ? The flywheel will go 2 ways. If you are using the one that came off the engine look it over as there may be alignment marks on the wheel and crankshaft from someone that previously had the wheel off for some reason. I had that issue with mine. For years the clutch would shake your dentures loose. Once I decided to fix that problem I ' Sharpied' the wheel and crank and when I went to adjust the pressure plate fingers while it was on the bench I noticed some old prick punch marks on the back side of the wheel. I looked at the crank and there were corresponding marks on the block side of the flange. Of course they were opposite [180º] of the ones I marked with the Sharpie. The engine also had a vibration, but, it wasn't that bad. You knew it was there. I took a chance and decided to install the wheel according to the punch marks. The engine runs much smoother.

03-18-2016, 09:24 PM	#3
daren007 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Saint Cloud Mn Posts: 745	Re: Model A flywheel I had the flywheel off. I do not remember if I had vibration issues before I removed it. I had just bought the car as a project and basically drove it from the trailer to the shop. I have a real bad vibration and it sounds like what you were dealing with. I installed the flywheel thinking it would only go one way so I never checked. I am on the understanding that the flywheel is balanced separately from the crank. If so it should not matter if it is 180 out (should not) however I understand that if the crank and flywheel were balanced as a unit then they should be reassembled as such.

03-18-2016, 11:05 PM	#4
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Model A flywheel Normally a very close look at the mating surface will show some marks (stains) to indicate how it was originally placed.

03-19-2016, 10:21 AM	#6
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Model A flywheel Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) OK, so when you say you have a bad vibration, are you talking about an engine vibration or a bad clutch chatter ? I'm assuming you mean engine. If you have a clutch chatter, then thats a different animal.

03-22-2016, 09:20 PM	#7
daren007 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Saint Cloud Mn Posts: 745	Re: Model A flywheel Engine vibration. Over the weekend I pulled the rear end and clutch housing. Started her up and still had the same vibration. Next I removed the clutch and ran it. Same vibration. Rotated the flywheel 180. Same vibration. Just off idle it starts and of course gets worse with an increase of rpm. It is a course/rough vibration. The engine is a Long Beech rebuild so I would think the quality would be there but.... When I drive the car anything above 30 mph gets bad. 45 is about all I want to go as I worry about damage to the crank, Bearings etc. I can get it up to 55 but it does not like it (neither do I). I know about the float a Ford etc. but those are only band aids on the real problem. I can get the crank, Rods, Flywheel and clutch balanced but do you think it will eliminate the problem? I am open to all suggestions. This car is not fun to drive. Daren

03-23-2016, 07:42 AM	#8
Patrick L. Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Largo Florida Posts: 7,225	Re: Model A flywheel Well, these monster do vibrate some. But, probably not as much as yours. If you have some one in your area that can balance, how about having the flywheel and clutch ass. balanced and give that a try. Some folks have said in the past they have reduced their vibration by loosening the front mount bolts.

03-23-2016, 09:02 AM	#9
JohnLaVoy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Rocklin, CA Posts: 779	Re: Model A flywheel If you removed the flywheel was there a problem that has been fixed? Of was this just for investigation? There are two "studs or pins" on the crank that the flywheel needs to be aligned with are they there? Then you have to confirm that the flywheel is set against the crank squarely and on the two studs. If you are a little out of one side it will cause the type of vibration you are talking about. BUt of course this means that you have to have access to the center of the fly wheel which means the engine needs to come back out of the car.

03-23-2016, 09:13 AM	#10
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Model A flywheel If the rear main isn't ground to the exact center for the flywheel, then you will have a paint shaker, and balancing the flywheel by itself will do no good.

03-23-2016, 09:46 AM	#11
Kevin in NJ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South East NJ Posts: 3,398	Re: Model A flywheel Usually the engines are not built to tight enough standards. From the factory the rods were +- 1 gram at each end, the piston rod unit were within 4 grams. The crank was ground to tight tolerances with the mains on center and the flywheel less than .001" from center. Both were dynamically balanced. Today the rods are often within 5 grams total weight. Pistons can be all over the place. Grinders may get centerlines and throws off center and out of place. The flywheels can be way out, we have crank that is .008" out on the flywheel. So you can have a pile of issues on an engine if the builder was not accurate in the build. The best thing is to pretend you are building a race car engine. Then you will be building it like Henry did on the line.

03-23-2016, 11:23 AM	#12
daren007 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Saint Cloud Mn Posts: 745	Re: Model A flywheel The flywheel is indexed properly to the crankshaft on the dowels. The flange and flywheel are clean and mate up. This thing is definitely a "paint Shaker". I can handle it around town but on the road it is no fun. I will deal with it for the summer but come fall out she comes. I have a local machine shop that does Model A and T Babbitt and balancing. They have been doing it for years so I will lay it in their lap and hope for the best. Thanks for the reply's. Daren

03-23-2016, 06:17 PM	#13
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Model A flywheel Hope the babbit isn't destroyed before the crank comes out. Make sure the crank is centered on the flywheel mounting circumference, and not the center in the rear end of the crankshaft.

03-23-2016, 07:29 PM	#14
harleytoprock Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 438	Re: Model A flywheel Have you put a dial indicator on the crankshaft flywheel flange to check for run out?

03-24-2016, 08:52 PM	#16
daren007 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Saint Cloud Mn Posts: 745	Re: Model A flywheel The car is back together. I plan on driving it for the summer just take it easy. This fall I will start over. With the flywheel on the dowels I do not see how it could be installed in correctly. But then again.. I did not dial the crank flange (damn). I suspect the crank flange is not concentric to the center line. I guess I will have to take a chance with the Babbitt. Daren